Is it Adultry or Adultry?

[josh987654321]

My marriage vows mean everything to me. You see, I divorced the man who would not keep his vows 23 year ago; 23 years! I am now married to the man whom God has BLESSED me with; BLESSED! In my prayers, I never forget to thank Him for that,

Yes, I value marriage. And I know what marriage is. It is a real commitment between 2 people who love, support, respect, honor and value each other. It is my precious husband; the one who works 2 jobs so that we can have something for retirement, raise my (our) granddaughter, and save for her college education as well.

Jesus loves me and He knows who I am truely married to because He sent him to me. And THAT is what should never be put assunder.

May I ask, have you tried seeing if your eligable for an annulment?

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[marimagi]

May I ask, have you tried seeing if your eligable for an annulment?

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh

I am definately eligible for annulment. My husband’s ex wife is lesbian and my ex is himself.

 

[PaulfromIowa]

Is it Adultry or Adultry?

Adultery

 

[marimagi]

Adultery

Both scenarios?

 

[josh987654321]

I am definately eligible for annulment. My husband’s ex wife is lesbian and my ex is himself.

Why not pursue that?

And my advice to divorced and remarried couples who cannot recieve communion, is that Christ is still there in the tabernacle, waiting for them to visit anytime so that he may recieve them lovingly into His arms. It’s not an end to their faith as so many seem to believe.

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[truetofaith]

Adultery

Good pickup!

 

[biggybig]

I am definately eligible for annulment. My husband’s ex wife is lesbian and my ex is himself.

In your statement you stated that the one’s in authority in the church said you were not. Don’t know if that was hypothetical. But, if that is true, you ought to rely on the authority of the Church, not your own understanding.

 

[josh987654321]

Both scenarios?

Does the answer really matter to you? What do you believe it is?

 

[marimagi]

Why not pursue that?

And my advice to divorced and remarried couples who cannot recieve communion, is that Christ is still there in the tabernacle, waiting for them to visit anytime so that he may recieve them lovingly into His arms. It’s not and end to their faith as so many seem to believe.

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh

Josh, you sound like a good, gentle soul. I hear what you are saying AND I have heard it before. You seem to mean well. But there are complicated reasons as to why I don’t oursue annulment, one being that my husbands “ex” in-laws would be hurt.

The point is, there is an objective reality. Two marriages were contracted and two marriages ended over complicated, painful issues. The issues could be documented and sent to tribunals for analysis. I have every configence that in both cases, the marriages would be declared null from the start. But what differnce does that make in the context of what is real or what is?

Many on this site have been quick to point out that my situation makes me an adultress. Well, I’m not. Does a tribunals affirmation of that make it so, or is it so already? After all, a death certificate doesn’t make the dead any more dead than they already are!

So you might say, we could then be convaliddated in the Church. Does that make us more married? It really doesn’t. After all, it is the couple that confers the Sacrament onto one another. Our covenant is already made. We live it and live up tot it every day and in everything we do.

And as for adoring Christ in the Tabernacle…that is not what Christ came to share with us. He is our spiritual food and we are to partake of His Body and Blood as a means to Commune with Him and With one another. It is as essential as the food we eat to keep our bodies alive. No one would suggest that we merely look at the food instead of eating it. It is NOT really a solution.

 

[marimagi]

In your statement you stated that the one’s in authority in the church said you were not. Don’t know if that was hypothetical. But, if that is true, you ought to rely on the authority of the Church, not your own understanding.

It was hypothetical. But for many it is not. Literally, the Church allows for such an abuse of the letter of the law to be abused in a manner that is technically and practically, immoral.

There are other problems with the current unwaivering stance the Church takes as well. For instance, a murderer could confess his or her sins and be free to return to the Sacraments. But a remarried individual is an adultererr who would have to (in most cases)abandon and HURT innocent others in order to be absolved of their “sin.”

Also, the person who mearly lives with another person before marriage, or one that marries outside the Church, can be readmitted to the Sacraments rather easily, while the person who tried to take the right course, may be entangles in Church beaurocracy for years. Can you see that it is almost encouraging NOT to marry in the Church until your sure?

Marrying in the Church SHOULD be a good thing, not something that if tragedy strikes, one must find himself locked out of the Saraments.

 

[SpidersfromMars]

Josh, you sound like a good, gentle soul. I hear what you are saying AND I have heard it before. You seem to mean well. But there are complicated reasons as to why I don’t oursue annulment, **one being that my husbands “ex” in-laws would be hurt. **

The point is, there is an objective reality. Two marriages were contracted and two marriages ended over complicated, painful issues. The issues could be documented and sent to tribunals for analysis. I have every configence that in both cases, the marriages would be declared null from the start. But what differnce does that make in the context of what is real or what is?

Many on this site have been quick to point out that my situation makes me an adultress. Well, I’m not. Does a tribunals affirmation of that make it so, or is it so already? After all, a death certificate doesn’t make the dead any more dead than they already are!

So you might say, we could then be convaliddated in the Church. Does that make us more married? It really doesn’t. After all, it is the couple that confers the Sacrament onto one another. Our covenant is already made. We live it and live up tot it every day and in everything we do.

And as for adoring Christ in the Tabernacle…that is not what Christ came to share with us. He is our spiritual food and we are to partake of His Body and Blood as a means to Commune with Him and With one another. It is as essential as the food we eat to keep our bodies alive. No one would suggest that we merely look at the food instead of eating it. It is NOT really a solution.

Well they survived when you divorced, why would they be upset just because you essentially want to ‘finalise’ the divorce with the Church? Besides, it’s not really their business (with all due respect).

 

[marimagi]

Well they survived when you divorced, why would they be upset just because you essentially want to ‘finalise’ the divorce with the Church? Besides, it’s not really their business (with all due respect).

I was speaking of my husband’s situation; my current husband. His in-laws took a pretty hard blow when their daughter came out as a lesbian and divorced. They made it clear to my husband, that he would always be a brother, uncle and a son in their family. My husband does not have family, so this has meant a lot to him and by extension, to me as well. His ex’s parents, sister, brother in law and nieces, all came to our wedding. They welcomed me into their family as well.

These wonderful people, are not Catholic. An annulment would open up a very painful situation for them and they would not understand the concept of annulmet (the ex mother and father in laws are elderly and sick.) To them, a annulment would mean that my husband wanted to erase his membership in their family.

 

[josh987654321]

And as for adoring Christ in the Tabernacle…that is not what Christ came to share with us. He is our spiritual food and we are to partake of His Body and Blood as a means to Commune with Him and With one another. It is as essential as the food we eat to keep our bodies alive. No one would suggest that we merely look at the food instead of eating it. It is NOT really a solution.

I would just like to say that humility is the surest way back to the Church, that seeking justification I believe is the wrong way, and I would just like to quickly comment on this ^

I believe there is far more to Eucharistic Adoration than merely looking at food. It’s Jesus’ real presense, thus it’s spending time before Christ Himself in which He can warm your heart, guide you and console you.
Jesus to Catalina:

The Passion - loveandmercy.org/Eng-TP-Reg.pdf

**11) For love of souls, I remain a prisoner in the Holy Eucharist, so that in their sorrow and grief they are being consoled by the most tender of Hearts, by the best of Fathers, by the most loyal friend. But that Love, which is consumed for the good of mankind, is not going to be returned.

1. I live amongst sinners to be their salvation and their life, their doctor and medicine; yet they, in return, in spite of their sick nature, distance themselves from Me. They offend Me and scorn Me.
2. My children, poor sinners! Do not distance yourselves from Me. I wait for you night and day at the Tabernacle. I will not reproach you for your crimes; I will not throw your sins in your face. What I will do is to wash you with the Blood of My wounds. Do not be afraid; come to Me. You do not know how much I love you.
3. And you, dear souls, why are you cold and indifferent to My love? I know you have to attend to the needs of your family, your home, and of the world that constantly demands of you. But, can it be that you do not have a moment to come and give Me proof of your love and gratitude? Do not allow yourselves to be carried away by so many useless worries; reserve a moment of your time to visit the Prisoner of Love. If your body is sick, can you not find a few minutes to seek the Doctor who must cure you? Come to He who can restore strength and health of the soul. Give alms of love to this Divine Beggar, who calls you, wants you, and waits for you.**

Jesus to Catalina:

In Adoration - loveandmercy.org/Eng-IA-Reg.pdf

15) “Bring human beings to My Altars. They do not know the things that are lost by not coming before My Presence to learn how to ask for them. They have financial concerns and they turn to Banks or lenders; they have health problems and they go to one doctor or another in search of the remedy for healing; they have problems with their children and they seek institutions and professional people to help them to contend with them. Almost all of them have spiritual problems, yet look at this Chapel, built so that My children may come and tell Me their sorrows, their joys and no one hardly ever comes.”

1. (The Lord was referring to a chapel in a South American country where I was at that time and which was built for the purpose of holding many hours of monthly Eucharistic Adoration.)
2. I began to weep, while telling Jesus that He knew how often and in what ways I had insisted that this should be carried out. Apart from one day per week when a Holy Bishop goes to celebrate Holy Mass and after Mass he exposes the Most Blessed Sacrament for Adoration, rare are the persons who come in order to accompany the Lord during the day.
3. With His usual gentleness, He consoled me by telling me that those persons who came there were heard with special attention, since they did so with love, without wishing to be seen by any other persons except Jesus Himself, and that this compensated for the lack of love of those who only attended large Churches when they were filled with people, to get the attention of priests or to take the pulpit and direct the prayers which were recited more for the purpose of being heard by human beings than by God.

I hope this has helped

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[pianistclare]

Dear OP:
You have made many assumptions about what the church does and does not do. My suggestion is to go to see a priest and also to read up on what annulments are, and what they “say” about marriages.
Stop speculating. If you want an annulment and let a good priest help you through the process.

 

[marimagi]

I would just like to say that humility is the surest way back to the Church, that seeking justification I believe is the wrong way, and I would just like to quickly comment on this ^

I believe there is far more to Eucharistic Adoration than merely looking at food.

I hope this has helped

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh

No, I meant looking at earthly food without the ability to obtain and consume that food which is necessary for physical sustenance. The Lord in the Eucharist is heavenly food which is intended for consumption in order to sustain us spiritually.

I love Adoration as well, and I know the value of partaking of it. I’m saying that that in and of itself, is not the same as consuming the Body of Our Lord.

And then again, a person in my situation is also barred from Reconsiliation. There are sins I want to confess, but can’t. Last night I learned that those in an irregular marriage can’t even receive the Sacrament of the Sick. Humility aside, could Christ possibly agree with this? Not the Christ I know.

It hurts that my relationship with Christ and Our Lady is so rich, and my relationship with the Church has become painful. I can’t repent of my marriage. I can’t repent of something that in the deepest recesses of my soul, I do not believe to be a sin. Believe me, I have searched for a convincing arguement, from the Bible, the Catechism, this forum and other conservative writings the Church has produced. The Church says I’m an adultress, and my conscience says I am not.

Someday, I think the Church will resolve this issue in a more humane way. I remember when people who committed suicide were considered eternally damned. They could not have a funeral Mass and could not be buried in a Catholic cemetary. But the Church has taken a new stance. The Church now recognizes that only God knows the state of mind the person was in, and it is not up to the Church to declare so to speak, that the person was in a permanent state of separation from God.

Divorce and remarriage is somewhat similar. Yes, we know what the scriptures say (just like we know what the Scriptures say about murdering the self.) But the Church ultimately chose humility in that it acknowledged that salvation is in God’s hands. We don’t know another’s state of mind or heart. So too in marriage, divorce, remarriage. It is not a matter for tribunals, but a matter for the parties involved to thoughtfully, thoroughly and prayerfully work out with the only One who knows if the marriage ever existed, or not.

 

[marimagi]

Dear OP:
You have made many assumptions about what the church does and does not do. My suggestion is to go to see a priest and also to read up on what annulments are, and what they “say” about marriages.
Stop speculating. If you want an annulment and let a good priest help you through the process.

It has been done. I know a lot about the Church. I stay informed and knowlegeable and keep myself well-read… I love the Church as well. That doesn’t mean that I don’t see some problem areas. Many Bishops and Cardinals have vocalized concerns regarding the current realities regarding divorce, remarriage, and very problematic issues with the annulment process.

You’ll have to excuse me for now. I have had to take some medication that makes me very tired. So good bye and good night for now.

 

[YADA]

So … I have empathy with you … and as one who - with their spouse went through the process to request a decision upon prior marriages …I think I can understand much of your turmoil …

Is it possible that during your divorce and remarriage periods - practicing the faith took second place in your life … for give me if that is not the case for you - it was in our life … and is the case in many that I have first hand knowledge of …

Here are my thoughts …

Like us - you really should have taken steps to seek a decision after your divorce and before dating … we wish we had … and our excuses were not dissimilar to some you have expressed here.

Like us - you should not have entered into a second marriage without seeking a decision and receiving a decree of nullity - first.

Life would have been so much simpler … but alas … like us - you married

However, once we humbly realized that no matter how much we loved each other, how dedicated we were to each other - our marriage was not going to be everything it should be unless and until we put Christ in the center of our marriage. We mutually realized that we had to totally dedicate our marriage - our life together - to Christ to survive and thrive.

That meant that we overcame all the objections and fears - all the angst. We vowed to face whatever the results were - and trust me … the process is not easy nor the outcome sure [at least the one we desired and you seem so assured you will get] …an act of faith, trust…

Did I mention that the process is not easy? Gut wrenching it is … and healing too and you will learn much about yourselves in going through it.

And I will say this too … do not worry about your present husband’s Ex in laws. Give them credit for being responsible caring adults. They can continue their relationship with the daughters ex husband. If they care for him as you indicate - and have accepted his marriage to you - what greater joy could they have then that he be reconciled with his Church and his Lord - able to participate fully in the Sacramental life … after all - it is not only the Eucharist you are missing - but Reconciliation. They may find this process healing. Their daughter impacted his life and her actions impacted their family … assisting him in this reconciliation could be a good thing …

Please do not project your resentments, fears, desires, hurt and anxiety upon others.

The Church did not force either of you to marry your first spouses. The Church did not make his wife gay nor your husband unfaithful. The Church did not force you to divorce nor to remarry. It was Jesus who said that what God joined together - no one can put separate. Moses allowed divorce due to the hardness of our hearts - but Jesus said it was not to be - not from the beginning …

By the way - you did not clearly state the conditions for both at initial marriages … I had gotten the impression originally that all both couples were Catholics married in the Church … then you said the Ex wife’s family are not Catholic - Was his ex-wife Catholic? Is your current husband? Were they married in a Catholic Church or with the proper dispensation? If he is and she is not - and they did not marry in the Church - he may not need an annulment … Were you and your ex Catholic married in the Church?

Take a deep breath, trust … work with your parish priest … you will be glad you did -

I will pray for you … Remember - our God is good.

 

[marimagi]

Yada,

What a considerate and thoughtful reply. Thank you.

In answer to your questions, I am the only Catholic in all of this. My ex was raised Mormon. but left that religion and believes in the Universe (which he is the center of ha ha.). My current husband was also raised Mormon and left the church. Same for his ex wife. Her family (his in-laws) are mostly faithful Mormons (guess where I live.) I have very little family. I am the only Catholic.

My husband proclaims to be athiest, although I tell him he is the worst athiest I ever met. Although he is repectful of me and my beliefs, getting married in the Church wouldn’t change the quality of the relationship we have now.

Funny you should mention that the Church didn’t force me to marry my ex. It is too long of a story to present here, but I married him in the Church 6 years after a civil wedding solely as an act of obedience to the Church. Marrying him initially, was basically a life or death situation for the twins I was carrying. I didn’t want to marry him at all and I was honest about that. He had his own reasons for wanting to marry me and believe me, they were not noble. Six years later, my babies were preparing for First Communion and I wanted to be right with the Church as an example to them as a mother. I had tried to separate from my ex two times prior, and failed. I thought of my marriage as a sacrifice I had to make for my girls.

So, I went through the annuiment process for a first marriage I had at only 18, which lasted only a year and a half. The process was not healing at all. The priest just handed me the packet of papers. Twently five typed responses later, I gave it back to him with my check. I received one letter about 9 months later. stating that I had passed the local tribunal and that it was being sent to another archdiocese. About 3 months later, I got a letter of annulment. I married my ex during a small evening Mass, but only after I received assurances from my ex, that he understood what marriage in the Church meant AND that he really was done with drugs and crime. He said he did and was. Eighteen months later, I found out that he wasn’t. He left before my girls had the First Communion I wanted to make things "right " for. As an aside, his family was disgusted that he would marry in the Catholic Church. Of course, he didn’t care about that either.

I was devastated not at the end of the marriage, but over the fact that I could never marry again without another annulment, which I found cold and hollow and never wanted to repeat. I actually refused at first. to petition for divorce, and went with a legal separation instead. (to settle the matter of child custody.) I had counseling for 2 years to deal with the fact that I had married that man in the Church, thus ruining my life as a Catholic. If only I hadn’t tried to “do the right thing.” Ultimately I did divorce, but the Church ceased to be personally relevant to me. I continued to raise my daughters Catholic though, and they even sang in their choir for Pope John Paul II with their choir! They left the Church ultimately though.

So, to be religated to the official title of “adultress” now, rubs me just a little bit the wrong way. Getting married in the Church would not change the marriage I have, one little bit. And that’s a good thing! My marriage is a source of strength and comfort to me now, and it is as real as it gets.

Sometimes I think I should just leave, but that is a hard decision to make. As it stands, I don’t feel like the Church has a place for people like me. I do want to see what Pope Francis might do to rectify these kinds of situations though. I strongly believe that God understands and fully accepts me and my situation. He gave me this person to share whats left of my life after all.

 

[josh987654321]

No, I meant looking at earthly food without the ability to obtain and consume that food which is necessary for physical sustenance. The Lord in the Eucharist is heavenly food which is intended for consumption in order to sustain us spiritually.

I believe it is also intended for Eucharistic Adoration, those who visit the Church may receive sustenance in the real presence of Christ there, maybe not as much as those who partake in it, but they still receive much sustenance simply by being in His presence.

I love Adoration as well, and I know the value of partaking of it. I’m saying that that in and of itself, is not the same as consuming the Body of Our Lord.

True, however, I believe it is still very close and extremely valuable.

And then again, a person in my situation is also barred from Reconciliation. There are sins I want to confess, but can’t. Last night I learned that those in an irregular marriage can’t even receive the Sacrament of the Sick. Humility aside, could Christ possibly agree with this? Not the Christ I know.

I didn’t know that.

It hurts that my relationship with Christ and Our Lady is so rich, and my relationship with the Church has become painful. I can’t repent of my marriage. I can’t repent of something that in the deepest recesses of my soul, I do not believe to be a sin. Believe me, I have searched for a convincing argument, from the Bible, the Catechism, this forum and other conservative writings the Church has produced. The Church says I’m an adulteress, and my conscience says I am not.

My advice would be to please, spend some time before Christ’s real presence in the Holy Eucharist when you get a chance at your local Catholic Church, I believe you will be amazed at the difference this makes.

Someday, I think the Church will resolve this issue in a more humane way. I remember when people who committed suicide were considered eternally damned. They could not have a funeral Mass and could not be buried in a Catholic cemetery. But the Church has taken a new stance. The Church now recognizes that only God knows the state of mind the person was in, and it is not up to the Church to declare so to speak, that the person was in a permanent state of separation from God.

True.

Divorce and remarriage is somewhat similar. Yes, we know what the scriptures say (just like we know what the Scriptures say about murdering the self.) But the Church ultimately chose humility in that it acknowledged that salvation is in God’s hands. We don’t know another’s state of mind or heart. So too in marriage, divorce, remarriage. It is not a matter for tribunals, but a matter for the parties involved to thoughtfully, thoroughly and prayerfully work out with the only One who knows if the marriage ever existed, or not.

I believe, either way you slice it, either divorce is licit and marriage is not or marriage is licit and divorce is not. I believe the only way forward is to work on the annulment process if that’s where the problems lie, especially for those married in ignorance.

I hope this has helped

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[thistle]

Yada,

What a considerate and thoughtful reply. Thank you.

In answer to your questions, I am the only Catholic in all of this. My ex was raised Mormon. but left that religion and believes in the Universe (which he is the center of ha ha.). My current husband was also raised Mormon and left the church. Same for his ex wife. Her family (his in-laws) are mostly faithful Mormons (guess where I live.) I have very little family. I am the only Catholic.

My husband proclaims to be athiest, although I tell him he is the worst athiest I ever met. Although he is repectful of me and my beliefs, getting married in the Church wouldn’t change the quality of the relationship we have now.

Funny you should mention that the Church didn’t force me to marry my ex. It is too long of a story to present here, but I married him in the Church 6 years after a civil wedding solely as an act of obedience to the Church. Marrying him initially, was basically a life or death situation for the twins I was carrying. I didn’t want to marry him at all and I was honest about that. He had his own reasons for wanting to marry me and believe me, they were not noble. Six years later, my babies were preparing for First Communion and I wanted to be right with the Church as an example to them as a mother. I had tried to separate from my ex two times prior, and failed. I thought of my marriage as a sacrifice I had to make for my girls.

So, I went through the annuiment process for a first marriage I had at only 18, which lasted only a year and a half. The process was not healing at all. The priest just handed me the packet of papers. Twently five typed responses later, I gave it back to him with my check. I received one letter about 9 months later. stating that I had passed the local tribunal and that it was being sent to another archdiocese. About 3 months later, I got a letter of annulment. I married my ex during a small evening Mass, but only after I received assurances from my ex, that he understood what marriage in the Church meant AND that he really was done with drugs and crime. He said he did and was. Eighteen months later, I found out that he wasn’t. He left before my girls had the First Communion I wanted to make things "right " for. As an aside, his family was disgusted that he would marry in the Catholic Church. Of course, he didn’t care about that either.

I was devastated not at the end of the marriage, but over the fact that I could never marry again without another annulment, which I found cold and hollow and never wanted to repeat. I actually refused at first. to petition for divorce, and went with a legal separation instead. (to settle the matter of child custody.) I had counseling for 2 years to deal with the fact that I had married that man in the Church, thus ruining my life as a Catholic. If only I hadn’t tried to “do the right thing.” Ultimately I did divorce, but the Church ceased to be personally relevant to me. I continued to raise my daughters Catholic though, and they even sang in their choir for Pope John Paul II with their choir! They left the Church ultimately though.

So, to be religated to the official title of “adultress” now, rubs me just a little bit the wrong way. Getting married in the Church would not change the marriage I have, one little bit. And that’s a good thing! My marriage is a source of strength and comfort to me now, and it is as real as it gets.

Sometimes I think I should just leave, but that is a hard decision to make. As it stands, I don’t feel like the Church has a place for people like me.** I do want to see what Pope Francis might do to rectify these kinds of situations though. I strongly believe that God understands and fully accepts me and my situation. He gave me this person to share whats left of my life after all.**

The Pope will not change anything. He can’t. Marriage is a Sacrament and when two people are in a valid marriage only the death of one spouse can dissolve the marriage bond.
Without an annulment a spouse civilly remarrying is not in a valid marriage and that will not change. The Church will never recognise the “new” marriage. God does not accept such a situation. The Church teachings have the full authority of God behind them meaning God says you cannot remarry if you are still in a valid marriage.

You have to decide if you put yourself first or God first.

My wife’s first husband is dead so she was free to marry. I was divorced from my first wife but could not get an annulment. We had a choice to make. Ourselves or God. We chose God and live a life of continence (no sexual relationship) and we can both receive Communion.