Is it Adultry or Adultry?

[marimagi]

The Pope will not change anything. He can’t. Marriage is a Sacrament and when two people are in a valid marriage only the death of one spouse can dissolve the marriage bond.
Without an annulment a spouse civilly remarrying is not in a valid marriage and that will not change. The Church will never recognise the “new” marriage. God does not accept such a situation. The Church teachings have the full authority of God behind them meaning God says you cannot remarry if you are still in a valid marriage.

You have to decide if you put yourself first or God first.

My wife’s first husband is dead so she was free to marry. I was divorced from my first wife but could not get an annulment. We had a choice to make. Ourselves or God. We chose God and live a life of continence (no sexual relationship) and we can both receive Communion.

I respect your choice. I do believe however, that the Church can better define what a valid marriage is. Is it a marriage in which a priest performs the Sacrament, or is it what the partners themselves create? In fact, the RC Church maintains that it is the man and woman who confer the Sacrament upon one another. I would think that if this is the case, and if the marriage is unsustainable, it is something akin to a miscarriage. It wasn’t viable. Certainly, after 23 years (in my case) I am no more married to my ex than I am to my couch. A marriage is much more than anything that ever occurs in any ceremony or even Sacrament. It is a living breathing entity between two people who are capable of working through whatever problems come their way. If divorced, they are not.

I consider the position of the Church quite often; especially when I read or hear something related to this topic. Sometime I think, “Well maybe I’ll just do it and get it over with.” But then I think of God. The God I love and believe in, is not compatable with the idea that I am still married to my ex in His eyes. The Christ I believe in, condemned the Pharisees for their rigid attitudes concerning the law. The Pharisees were only following the law God had revealed to them. They were only doing right by their beliefs; just as the Catholic Church has maintained that the only resolution to remarriage is what she has stated and codified thus far. But more than any other thing in the Gospels, I see a Christ who is loving, fair, and just above all else. Jesus taught us to use the minds and hearts he gave us and yes, even to the point of using common sense. He healed on the Sabbath. He touched the lepers and the dead. And, He reproached those who could not distinguish between the law and mercy.

One of the lessons of Christ’s death on the cross, is that people have a sinful tendency to carry their laws and belief so far as to kill in their names. Think of the moral purists who would have stoned the woman caught in adultry rather than search their own hearts.

I believe that following Christ is a lifelong challenge. We are called to form and then listen to our conscience; to seek answers, to struggle for understanding. Simply doing what the Church says because it must be right, (and thus safe) is not the challenge I believe Christ asked us to take as His followers.

I know that many would disagree with my stance. And maybe Christ disagrees as well. But He also knows that I don’t take my beliefs lightly; that I have struggled with this issue and have struggled out of love for Him above all.

 

[biggybig]

It was hypothetical. But for many it is not. Literally, the Church allows for such an abuse of the letter of the law to be abused in a manner that is technically and practically, immoral.

There are other problems with the current unwaivering stance the Church takes as well. For instance, a murderer could confess his or her sins and be free to return to the Sacraments. But a remarried individual is an adultererr who would have to (in most cases)abandon and HURT innocent others in order to be absolved of their “sin.”

Also, the person who mearly lives with another person before marriage, or one that marries outside the Church, can be readmitted to the Sacraments rather easily, while the person who tried to take the right course, may be entangles in Church beaurocracy for years. Can you see that it is almost encouraging NOT to marry in the Church until your sure?

Marrying in the Church SHOULD be a good thing, not something that if tragedy strikes, one must find himself locked out of the Saraments.

As Saint Paul stated, those that eat and drink the eucharist unworthily eat and drink judgement on themselves. He also added, that is the reason why some people get sick. It’s sacrilege and highly offensive to receive while not in a state of grace.

The difference between a murderer, or any other sin, and someone in your situation is that a murderer is repentant and stops doing it. The same is required for you. Repent and stop living in an adulterous relationship. Or, if you believe your previous marriage was invalid, you are obligated to do that. Not doing it, is creating scandal within the Church, if you receive. Plus, you’ll be able to go to confession, which is a huge plus! Your job as a wife is to get your husband into heaven, not a stumbling block. Therefore, again I say, you are obligated to make your marriage right in the eyes of God. Your belief that it is right in the eyes of God does not make it so. We should not pray that God is on our side, but that we are on His. We can believe in Santa Claus all we want, but it does not make him real. Christ is real. His Church is real. His love and mercy is real. It pains my heart the immense graces you are denying yourself. Grace is real. It is life giving and life changing. Let us re-order our lives according to God’s will…

 

[biggybig]

Also, you seam to be arguing both sides of the fence. You say you are not in an adulterous relationship, but then give examples of how the Church treats people who are. You can either argue that you are not in an adulterous relationship or, argue that you are and why that is ok. The Church will never condone sin, and rightfully so. When we sin, it harms our ability to give charity to others and to love others. We harm ourselves and others when we sin. The Church always tries to help people repent and to amend their lives so that they stop sinning.

 

[kozlosap]

The Pope will not change anything. He can’t. Marriage is a Sacrament and when two people are in a valid marriage only the death of one spouse can dissolve the marriage bond.
Without an annulment a spouse civilly remarrying is not in a valid marriage and that will not change. The Church will never recognise the “new” marriage. God does not accept such a situation. The Church teachings have the full authority of God behind them meaning God says you cannot remarry if you are still in a valid marriage.

You have to decide if you put yourself first or God first.

My wife’s first husband is dead so she was free to marry. I was divorced from my first wife but could not get an annulment. We had a choice to make. Ourselves or God. We chose God and live a life of continence (no sexual relationship) and we can both receive Communion.

This thread should be used as the example of the exact reasons that Papa Francis wants the whole annulment process to be streamlined and possibly even free. If a loving marriage of 23 years after a disastrous and very short first marriage means that according to Church dogma, the couple is living in so-called sin, then just call me cafeteria Catholic, or heretic, but it makes no sense, common or otherwise.

 

[biggybig]

I respect your choice. I do believe however, that the Church can better define what a valid marriage is. Is it a marriage in which a priest performs the Sacrament, or is it what the partners themselves create? In fact, the RC Church maintains that it is the man and woman who confer the Sacrament upon one another. I would think that if this is the case, and if the marriage is unsustainable, it is something akin to a miscarriage. It wasn’t viable. Certainly, after 23 years (in my case) I am no more married to my ex than I am to my couch. A marriage is much more than anything that ever occurs in any ceremony or even Sacrament. It is a living breathing entity between two people who are capable of working through whatever problems come their way. If divorced, they are not.

I consider the position of the Church quite often; especially when I read or hear something related to this topic. Sometime I think, “Well maybe I’ll just do it and get it over with.” But then I think of God. The God I love and believe in, is not compatable with the idea that I am still married to my ex in His eyes. The Christ I believe in, condemned the Pharisees for their rigid attitudes concerning the law. The Pharisees were only following the law God had revealed to them. They were only doing right by their beliefs; just as the Catholic Church has maintained that the only resolution to remarriage is what she has stated and codified thus far. But more than any other thing in the Gospels, I see a Christ who is loving, fair, and just above all else. Jesus taught us to use the minds and hearts he gave us and yes, even to the point of using common sense. He healed on the Sabbath. He touched the lepers and the dead. And, He reproached those who could not distinguish between the law and mercy.

One of the lessons of Christ’s death on the cross, is that people have a sinful tendency to carry their laws and belief so far as to kill in their names. Think of the moral purists who would have stoned the woman caught in adultry rather than search their own hearts.

I believe that following Christ is a lifelong challenge. We are called to form and then listen to our conscience; to seek answers, to struggle for understanding. Simply doing what the Church says because it must be right, (and thus safe) is not the challenge I believe Christ asked us to take as His followers.

I know that many would disagree with my stance. And maybe Christ disagrees as well. But He also knows that I don’t take my beliefs lightly; that I have struggled with this issue and have struggled out of love for Him above all.

Get a Catechism. Read it. Many parishes also have classes specifically for people in your situation and can help you understand better the Churches position. I say that because your analysis and conclusions are off the mark. Seek the Truth.

"The God I love and believe in, is not compatable with the idea that I am still married to my ex in His eyes. "
Have you considered that maybe you do not know Him very well and that may you ought to examine your life and your understanding. Put it to the test.

“The Pharisees were only following the law God had revealed to them. They were only doing right by their beliefs; just as the Catholic Church has maintained that the only resolution to remarriage is what she has stated and codified thus far.”
You are mis-interpreting the bible…

 

[Peebo]

This thread should be used as the example of the exact reasons that Papa Francis wants the whole annulment process to be streamlined and possibly even free. If a loving marriage of 23 years after a disastrous and very short first marriage means that according to Church dogma, the couple is living in so-called sin, then just call me cafeteria Catholic, or heretic, but it makes no sense, common or otherwise.

Well said…here is a Homily from our beloved Pope Francis on the very subject of the hypocrite Pharisees who were so close minded to anything but the letter of the law…he is referring to Christians who act in the same manner…some Catholics here might do well to read it
catholicnewsagency.com/news/its-not-the-law-that-saves-you-its-christ-pope-reflects-69540/

 

[InNomineDomini]

Think of the moral purists who would have stoned the woman caught in adultry rather than search their own hearts.

Jesus very clearly was searching for the woman’s **conversion **rather than the **justice of punishment **falling on her for her sins, which was her due. This is evident from the fact that He does not condemn her, but that He told her to sin no more.

Christ’s mercy is a call that leads us to deeper conversion. What? Should we think His mercy is merely a warrant to sin as we please? That would be quite absurd!

Now, if a person wants to call the Catholic Church pharasaical because it views marriage as being lifelong and unbreakable, then perhaps it would be best to at least use Biblical understandings of what “pharasaical” should imply.

Jesus comes right out and says the following about the Pharisees:

Then said Jesus to the crowds and to his disciples, 2 “The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat; 3 so practice and observe whatever they tell you, but not what they do; for they preach, but do not practice.

When Jesus condemned the Pharisees, He condemned their hypocrisy. But He clearly did not view them as having no authority. Jesus cannot be any clearer than what He said above.

 

[InNomineDomini]

Pope Francis on the adulterous woman:

“In the scene of the woman taken in adultery (John 8:1-11), if Jesus approves the stoning, His mercy is called into doubt; if He disapproves, He goes against the Law. In these devious dialogues, Jesus usually does two things: He utters words of instruction to those who want to trap Him, but He speaks differently to the victim (here, the adulterous woman) and directly addresses the deceitful situation. In this case, Jesus turns the condemnation back on the schemers, telling them to apply it to themselves, and then he restores to the woman her very life, encouraging her to live from that point on responsibly.” [Pope Francis, “Open Mind, Faithful Heart: Reflections on Following Jesus,” pg. 4.]

According to then Cardinal Bergoglio’s own exegesis, the woman in adultery was brought to Jesus **to trap Him **and to give certain individuals the ability to condemn Him. He turned this around on them, and thus avoided the trap. He also extended mercy to the woman they were trying to use to trap Him, and He commanded Her to sin no more.

But it is an abuse of this text to use it to imply that no one is ever permitted to view a behavior as being objectively immoral. It should not lead us to feel that we cannot tell someone to stop sinning or it’ll destroy their soul. It certainly has nothing whatsoever to do with the question of whether or not marriage can be valid or invalid, and whether or not a valid marital bond can ever somehow be broken.

 

[marimagi]

Well, you are certainly entitled to your beliefs. Perhaps at some point, I’ll join the Episcopal Church, where my views are not considered heretical. Guess all Episcoopalians (and all Protestants for that matter) are going to hell though. Too bad.

 

[marimagi]

This thread should be used as the example of the exact reasons that Papa Francis wants the whole annulment process to be streamlined and possibly even free. If a loving marriage of 23 years after a disastrous and very short first marriage means that according to Church dogma, the couple is living in so-called sin, then just call me cafeteria Catholic, or heretic, but it makes no sense, common or otherwise.

Just a quick clarification:

First marriage: 18 months. Annulled

Second Marriage: 8 Years THEN Legally Separated
2 Years later, Divorce

Second Marriage has been OVER COMPLETELY for 23 Years.

Third Marriage: Four years and living happily ever after

 

[truetofaith]

Well, you are certainly entitled to your beliefs. Perhaps at some point, I’ll join the Episcopal Church, where my views are not considered heretical. Guess all Episcoopalians (and all Protestants for that matter) are going to hell though. Too bad.

Why would they go to hell, if they love Jesus and keep His Commandments?

 

[adrift]

My ex husband and I have been divorced for 23 years. We are both happily remarried.
The Church however, maintains that we are in adulterous relationships. If this is so, would it be morally acceptable for me to have “marital relations” with my ex/“real” husband?

Luke 10

11

He said to them, "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery against her;

12

and if she divorces her husband and marries another, she commits adultery."

A requirement for a good confession is the intention not to commit the sin again. A person who is living with a person who they are not married to cannot have this intention if they continue to live with a person who they are not married to. You consider this rigid. I guess many who are unrepented think this about the position of the Church which position is an accurate reflection on the laws of God. What you are really saying is that God is rigid. I am sure all of us have those things which are hard sayings. The arguments you make may be used for pornography, masturbation, abortion and homosexuality and they are made. Instead of saying mea culpa it is the Church is rigid shame on it for saying I am sinning.

 

[YADA]

Hi again -

I am sorry your first annulment left you feeling alone and abandoned. It seems rather like ours - though here is the truth of that matter - we muscled through that questionnaire - both of us - solo - not discussing it with each other nor seeking the assistance of our priest or other pastoral staff. We still found the process - ultimately at the end - when the questions were answered and submitted to have been a positive step.

For my part - I learned a lot about myself and even my ex. I had to confront my failings - my immaturity, my share of the responsibility for the failure of my marriage. … There is usually two … though some marriages I am sure have one egregious party … most marriages fail because of the actions of two people …

I have a friend * who works in a parish in a neighboring town. She personally assists every parishioner who is faced with this process if they desire. TO complete the questionnaire - she interviews them and types the responses. She will even have them bring in the envelopes with the decisions to open in her office - so she can explain the decisions and offer comfort when an annulment is not granted. She takes a personal pastoral approach. This is very time consuming - so she would not be able to do this s the numbers of people seeking decisions was extremely high … most priests have too many to many other responsibilities [like my parish of over 2000 families and a parish school] to be able to offer this type of one on one attention.

I am not you … but if I were you - I would try again. Perhaps seek out an advocate like my friend or even a canon lawyer - your parish should be able to assist you … AT least then you would have a definitive answer to your situation. I know it might seem easier to just join another faith community - but I would not give up our Lord in the sacrament of the Eucharist that easily - where else can you be truly fed with that heavenly food?

It is very hard to deal with the wake of destruction we leave behind us … the older I get - the more I hate to turn around and look at that damage … thankfully our Lord is forgiving. Good luck … I will continue to pray for you*

 

[thistle]

This thread should be used as the example of the exact reasons that Papa Francis wants the whole annulment process to be streamlined and possibly even free. If a loving marriage of 23 years after a disastrous and very short first marriage means that according to Church dogma, the couple is living in so-called sin, then just call me cafeteria Catholic, or heretic, but it makes no sense, common or otherwise.

If you believe the Catholic Church is the true Church established by Christ then you know in matters of faith and morals it cannot be in error because the Church teachings have the full authority of God behind them. To reject a Church teaching is to reject God.

 

[marimagi]

Why would they go to hell, if they love Jesus and keep His Commandments?

My point exactly!

 

[marimagi]

If you believe the Catholic Church is the true Church established by Christ then you know in matters of faith and morals it cannot be in error because the Church teachings have the full authority of God behind them. To reject a Church teaching is to reject God.

Church teachings don’t change, they evolve.

 

[marimagi]

Hi again -

I am sorry your first annulment left you feeling alone and abandoned. It seems rather like ours - though here is the truth of that matter - we muscled through that questionnaire - both of us - solo - not discussing it with each other nor seeking the assistance of our priest or other pastoral staff. We still found the process - ultimately at the end - when the questions were answered and submitted to have been a positive step.

For my part - I learned a lot about myself and even my ex. I had to confront my failings - my immaturity, my share of the responsibility for the failure of my marriage. … There is usually two … though some marriages I am sure have one egregious party … most marriages fail because of the actions of two people …

I have a friend * who works in a parish in a neighboring town. She personally assists every parishioner who is faced with this process if they desire. TO complete the questionnaire - she interviews them and types the responses. She will even have them bring in the envelopes with the decisions to open in her office - so she can explain the decisions and offer comfort when an annulment is not granted. She takes a personal pastoral approach. This is very time consuming - so she would not be able to do this s the numbers of people seeking decisions was extremely high … most priests have too many to many other responsibilities [like my parish of over 2000 families and a parish school] to be able to offer this type of one on one attention.

I am not you … but if I were you - I would try again. Perhaps seek out an advocate like my friend or even a canon lawyer - your parish should be able to assist you … AT least then you would have a definitive answer to your situation. I know it might seem easier to just join another faith community - but I would not give up our Lord in the sacrament of the Eucharist that easily - where else can you be truly fed with that heavenly food?

It is very hard to deal with the wake of destruction we leave behind us … the older I get - the more I hate to turn around and look at that damage … thankfully our Lord is forgiving. Good luck … I will continue to pray for you*

Thank you for your kind and thoughtful reply. Bless you too.

 

[Timothysis]

Well, you are certainly entitled to your beliefs. Perhaps at some point, I’ll join the Episcopal Church, where my views are not considered heretical. Guess all Episcoopalians (and all Protestants for that matter) are going to hell though. Too bad.

You just showed your cards. First you expect us to accept that your current marriage is valid even though you know what the Church teaches about such situations, now you’re ready to bail on the Church to join the Episcopalians because they should accept your views. Something tells me that deep down inside, you know you are grasping at straws. You spend a lot of time trying to define marriage and detail what constitutes validity when you know it is contrary to what the Church teaches. Either you have faith in the Church or you don’t. And I have news for you, church hopping isn’t going to satisfy your conscience, either. If you desire the Eucharist so much, why would you go to another community that does not even have a valid Eucharist, or do you think that the Church is wrong about that, too? If it really, truly means so much to you, why do you not seek an annulment and a convalidation of your current marriage? Why is that so unreasonable if it means so much to you?

 

[marimagi]

You just showed your cards. First you expect us to accept that your current marriage is valid even though you know what the Church teaches about such situations, now you’re ready to bail on the Church to join the Episcopalians because they should accept your views. Something tells me that deep down inside, you know you are grasping at straws. You spend a lot of time trying to define marriage and detail what constitutes validity when you know it is contrary to what the Church teaches. Either you have faith in the Church or you don’t. And I have news for you, church hopping isn’t going to satisfy your conscience, either. If you desire the Eucharist so much, why would you go to another community that does not even have a valid Eucharist, or do you think that the Church is wrong about that, too? If it really, truly means so much to you, why do you not seek an annulment and a convalidation of your current marriage? Why is that so unreasonable if it means so much to you?

First of all, I was being sacrcastic because I get a little tired of the insensitivity so many on this site demonstrate. Second of all, I just got back from taking my granddaughter to Catechism and attending Mass,

 

[Timothysis]

First of all, I was being sacrcastic because I get a little tired of the insensitivity so many on this site demonstrate. Second of all, I just got back from taking my granddaughter to Catechism and attending Mass,

Still, I say again, if it really, truly means so much to you, why do you not seek an annulment and a convalidation of your current marriage? Why is that so unreasonable if it means so much to you?