Is it Adultry or Adultry?

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Church teachings don’t change, they evolve.
What constitutes a valid marriage won’t “evolve”. It is also not possible to make a valid marriage invalid.
In your case the only way forward is an annulment. Nothing else will rectify your situation.

A couple who are divorced and “remarried” without an annulment are in a state of mortal sin. No way past that without an annulment or death of divorced spouse. If an annulment is not possible then the couple either have to split or if they stay together then they must cease all sexual relations permanently (this is called continence).

There is little point in saying God must have put us together and we are a loving faithful couple. That’s exactly the same argument a gay couple will make or a straight couple who live together without wanting to marry.That is what people who know they are sinning say when they don’t want to stop and want God to bend to their will instead of obeying God.

You really do have to decide to put God first or yourselves first. The former will reconcile you with God whereas the latter will keep you separated from God.
 
My ex husband and I have been divorced for 23 years. We are both happily remarried.
The Church however, maintains that we are in adulterous relationships. If this is so, would it be morally acceptable for me to have “marital relations” with my ex/“real” husband?
It would be morally wrong for the two of you to continue with your adulterous relationships while have sex with your husband.
 
But there are complicated reasons as to why I don’t oursue annulment, one being that my husbands “ex” in-laws would be hurt.
Perhaps, and perhaps not. Too often we set up straw arguments, and often the reasons for them are deep enough that we are not good at analyzing them ourselves. If you mean that they would know all of what the case showed, there is no reason to presume that. While witnesses are needed (and on a rare occasion a case can go forward without them), it is unlikely anyone outside the immediate case would know any of the details.

For the moment, let’s presume they are hurt; but let’s also presume for the moment that this is a serious moral issue (the Church holds that it is); which is more important - someone being hurt either because of their own prejudices or their lack of knowledge of certain things, or our own moral status? The same could be said of in laws or relatives hurt because someone converted to the Catholic Church. Which is more important; their feelings or our own salvation?
The point is, there is an objective reality. Two marriages were contracted and two marriages ended over complicated, painful issues. The issues could be documented and sent to tribunals for analysis. I have every configence that in both cases, the marriages would be declared null from the start. But what differnce does that make in the context of what is real or what is?
Christ, in the Gospels, said that there is no divorce. That has been held by the Church to mean that a valid marriage cannot be dissolved. The only way the issue of the first marriage can be determined valid or not valid is by submitting it to the tribunal; until then, the Church, in following Christ’s word, has to hold that the first marriage is valid. And from that flows the rest of the rules; that say that if you have a presumed marriage, then divorce and remarry without the Church determining the validity of the first one, you are objectively in an adulterous situation, and cannot receive the Eucharist. We tend not only to be our own worst enemies, but also tend to be less than completely honest with ourselves. Christ gave us the Church as the means to determine such things; He did not leave us to determine each situation on our own.
Many on this site have been quick to point out that my situation makes me an adultress. Well, I’m not. Does a tribunals affirmation of that make it so, or is it so already? After all, a death certificate doesn’t make the dead any more dead than they already are!
At the very end, each of us will be judged by Christ, not by the pope, our bishop, or our pastor. On the other hand, Christ gave us the Church and gave it the authority to make the rules (Whatever you bind on earth…). The Church has said that the first marriage is permanent until death, unless it is shown not to be valid from the first day; so the Church says that objectively, someone in a second marriage is in an adulterous relationship unless and until the first is shown invalid. The Church does not judge your subjective state.

To ignore that, and to ignore the rules, is effectively to say “I don’t need the Church”. As only Christ can judge, it may be that you will be judged innocent; but there is only one time through this life, and getting it wrong has serious consequences. Not a bet I would want to make.
So you might say, we could then be convaliddated in the Church. Does that make us more married? It really doesn’t. After all, it is the couple that confers the Sacrament onto one another. Our covenant is already made. We live it and live up tot it every day and in everything we do.
Not more married - it makes you married at all to the current spouse. And living a married, sacramental life is done so in the context of the Church and it’s authority over the sacraments. Christ gave that power to the Church, not to each of us individually. I feel like I am beating on this issue - but the determination of whether or not a sacramental marriage - a valid one - has occurred - is within the authority of the Church, not the individual to determine.
And as for adoring Christ in the Tabernacle…that is not what Christ came to share with us. He is our spiritual food and we are to partake of His Body and Blood as a means to Commune with Him and With one another. It is as essential as the food we eat to keep our bodies alive. No one would suggest that we merely look at the food instead of eating it. It is NOT really a solution.
You are right that it is not a solution. The solution is to submit all to the tribunal. Again, Christ gave authority to the Church to make the rules, and the Church is not trying to impose itself on us; it is trying to follow Christ. And it was Christ who said that marriage may not end in divorce. If the first marriage was not valid from the beginning, then His rule is not violated. And if the first marriage is valid, then the rule is violated, not because the Church says so, but because Christ says so.

This all is hard; you have, it appears, been in two situations where you have ended up holding the wrong end of the stick. That does not make you a bad person. The Church seeks to heal people who have been through this wringer. The comment “physician, heal thyself” comes to mind. To say that you do not need the Church’s intervention, is to say you do not need the Church - and I don’t really think that really is what you are saying, when it all gets said and done.
 
My ex husband and I have been divorced for 23 years. We are both happily remarried.
The Church however, maintains that we are in adulterous relationships. If this is so, would it be morally acceptable for me to have “marital relations” with my ex/“real” husband?
It would not be adultery, but nor would it be morally acceptable.
 
It would not be adultery, but nor would it be morally acceptable.
You are wrong. The OP’s current marriage is not valid in the eyes of the Church. That means her valid marriage is to the spouse that civilly divorced her because she has no annulment. Consequently her current relationship is adulterous. The long time span does not change that.

A reminder of the definition of adultery:

Modern Catholic Dictionary:

ADULTERY. Sexual intercourse of a married person and another who is not the wife or husband. Forbidden by the sixth commandment of the Decalogue, it was extended in meaning by Christ, who forbade divorce with the right to remarry during the lifetime of one’s legitimate spouse. (Etym. Latin adulterium, adultery, carnal or spiritual.)
 
Hi thistle 🙂

I believe you may have miss read Cone’s post, I believe he/she is in agreement.

God Bless

Josh
If I misunderstood I stand corrected but I re-read Cone’s post and he says** “it would not be adultery”.** Even though he is saying it is not morally acceptable which is correct he is wrong when he says it is not adultery.
 
I may have missed it but I saw no reference to what used to be the Sixth Precept of the Catholic Church. (“Obey the laws of the Church concerning marriage.”) The CCC omits that precept which the old Baltimore Catechism included. I have no doubt though that there’s no change in the force of the old precept and that the authority of the Church is fully behind its teachings and norms summarized in the CCC.

Certainly, as some have mentioned, the authority of the Church is clear in the gospels. Jesus was clear in telling the Apostles, “Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” A person ignores that directive at the risk of losing their soul. Sometimes we need to humbly acknowledge that our own interpretation of Church law is a rationalization and does not line up with the radical way of Christ’s thinking. Too often, as Jesus said, we think not as God does, but as human beings do.

Canon law has extensive rules on what valid marriages and annulments are but a lot of Catholics these days interpret (rationalize?) the meaning of Christian marriage in their own way. Although obedience to the rules is no doubt a requirement, leaving that precept off the list IMO only encouraged fuzzy thinking about what a Christian marriage is supposed to be.

How the rules are applied–with mercy and understanding, a la’ Pope Francis’ urging–is important, but clarity about the standard is nevertheless necessary.

As an aside–I’m floored by the unwillingness of some Catholics, including priests and at least one Cardinal, to fail to understand that this pope is both orthodox and pastoral. The two are not exclusive.
 
I may have missed it but I saw no reference to what used to be the Sixth Precept of the Catholic Church. (“Obey the laws of the Church concerning marriage.”) The CCC omits that precept which the old Baltimore Catechism included. I have no doubt though that there’s no change in the force of the old precept and that the authority of the Church is fully behind its teachings and norms summarized in the CCC.
What am I misunderstanding?
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a6.htm
PART THREE
LIFE IN CHRIST
SECTION TWO
THE TEN COMMANDMENTS
CHAPTER TWO
“YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF”
ARTICLE 6
THE SIXTH COMMANDMENT
You shall not commit adultery.113
You have heard that it was said, “You shall not commit adultery.” But I say to you that every one who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.114
…etc
 
I’d say we’re talking apples and oranges but it’s more like we’re talking Rome and Golden Delicious apples. I take it you know what the Precepts of the Catholic Church are? (CCC Para. 2041 & ff.)

You can certainly extrapolate the Church’s laws on marriage from what you posted. But the CIC (Canon Law) gets into more interpretive and administrative details based in doctrine. Those are the “laws of the Church concerning matrimony” that the old sixth precept of the Church was referring to.
 
If I misunderstood I stand corrected but I re-read Cone’s post and he says** “it would not be adultery”.** Even though he is saying it is not morally acceptable which is correct he is wrong when he says it is not adultery.
What is Cone saying is not adultery?

I understood it meant that having relations with a person you are divorced from but not annulled from. Divorced is only a civil rendering It does not dissolve a marriage.

The adultery is the “second” marriage.
 
I’d say we’re talking apples and oranges but it’s more like we’re talking Rome and Golden Delicious apples. I take it you know what the Precepts of the Catholic Church are? (CCC Para. 2041 & ff.)

You can certainly extrapolate the Church’s laws on marriage from what you posted. But the CIC (Canon Law) gets into more interpretive and administrative details based in doctrine. Those are the “laws of the Church concerning matrimony” that the old sixth precept of the Church was referring to.
I’m sorry I completely misunderstood. I thought you were making the case that the Church did not speak on the 6th -commandment- in the CCC. :doh2:
 
What is Cone saying is not adultery?

I understood it meant that having relations with a person you are divorced from but not annulled from. Divorced is only a civil rendering It does not dissolve a marriage.

The adultery is the “second” marriage.
The OP is a currently in a “marriage” that is not valid because she does not have an annulment form the marriage that she is civilly divorced from. Her current “marriage” is an adulterous situation. Cone said that is not adultery. I said that is wrong because it is adultery.
 
The OP is a currently in a “marriage” that is not valid because she does not have an annulment form the marriage that she is civilly divorced from. Her current “marriage” is an adulterous situation. Cone said that is not adultery. I said that is wrong because it is adultery.
I’ve read Cone’s post again and I’m sure he is in agreement with you. 😃

I believe Cone was replying to the question in the quote above “If I have marital relations with my ex/“real” husband?” in which case he said* ‘it would not be adultery’* because without an annulment, she is still validly married to her ex.

However, I’ll let Cone clear it up for us. 🙂

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh
 
I’ve read Cone’s post again and I’m sure he is in agreement with you. 😃

I believe Cone was replying to the question in the quote above “If I have marital relations with my ex/“real” husband?” in which case he said* ‘it would not be adultery’* because without an annulment, she is still validly married to her ex.

However, I’ll let Cone clear it up for us. 🙂

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh
Okay. If that’s the case then we are in agreement. Its just a pity he didn’t include the post he was referring to.
 
So now that you have all that cleared up, would you like another layer of confusion?

According to rabbinic law in Jesus’ time, a woman could not ask for a divorce, but a man could ask for a divorce for reasons as trivial as the woman burning his supper. Furthermore, no one could marry the woman again (used goods,) so her life was pretty much ruined. If she was lucky, her parents would support her again. Not so lucky? She’s a prostitute. . Furthermore, adultery was punishable by death. Men had so many loop holes to fall back on, it was practically impossible for THEM to legally commit adultery.though.

Jesus’ response to the question of divorce, pretty much put the guys in the same position as the women. Sure, they could divorce the wife for whatever reason, but they were not going to marry the cute little chickie next door instead. And now, men could even be subject to objectively committing adultery and being stoned themselves. Good heavens!

Once again, Christ’s response to the question that was supposed to trip Him up, shut everyone up!
 
Going through the process of annulment is difficult. I can totally empathize with that. I had a simple annulment. My husband is not Catholic, but was married in Catholic church. His annulment was a difficult process. When we first saw all the questions they asked, we put the papers away. My husband was not willing to answer all the personal questions.

After a year, my husband saw how much it meant to me to receive communion. I pulled out the papers again, and asked him the questions, and I typed up the answers. We started to move forward with the process. And, it sure was a process, involving his whole family. However, they all answered promptly, and it was moving forward.

I can understand the feelings of frustration of not being allowed to receive Holy Communion, and the Church not recognizing your marriage. Once upon a time, the thought of joining another religion did enter my mind. I felt that I would be accepted at another church. But, I still would not be able to receive Holy Communion, or any of the sacraments.

My husband does not attend any church. His family did not attend church, other than a few occasions. He was baptized in a Serbian Orthodox church, but did not receive any of the other sacraments. He does not understand why we have to go through all of this for annulment. Then again, he does not understand or know much about the church that he was baptized in.

My husband’s annulment was final three weeks ago. Now, we are going for our pre-marital evaluation. They ask the same questions as on the annulment form. I know my husband was not too thrilled with all of the personal questions, and he said the Catholic church is too nosey. I explained to him, that those are the questions they would ask in any pre-marital session. They want to be sure the couple is prepared to commit to the sacrament of marriage. And, that I am sure other faiths probably have something similar. Marriage is supposed to be for a lifetime, and not taken lightly. They want to make sure that the mistakes from the previous marriage are not carried over to the next marriage.

It is a process, but will be worth it in the end. However, the church will never change allowing sacraments to those in remarriage without annulment. Many people believe that will change, because of it being brought up in the synod. There may be some changes, but the bottom line is that you will still need annulment.
 
Once again, Christ’s response to the question that was supposed to trip Him up, shut everyone up!
It hasn’t shut you up though. 😉

Seriously, how you could read Christ’s words on divorce and think that your own situation is acceptable is beyond comprehension. The only way forward is with annulments and a convalidation.
 
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