Is it against tradition for a pope to be a religious?

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I think some of it just has to do with the fact that JPII was pope so long and that Benedict/Ratzinger was such a well known figure. We are not used to change. If we’d had 2 or 3 popes during the time of JPII, people would be much more used to popes (even secular popes) doing things differently, having different priorities, wearing different vestments.

As it is, anyone under 40 say - or who converted less than 40 years ago - really only have the experience of 2 previous popes.
 
Personally, I was appalled at the amount of criticism directed at Pope Francis in his first weeks as pope. (Not here, in general.) But I did not have the impression that it had much to do with him being a religious. I think it is because he is the Pope and, in general, we have lost the traditional understanding of the love and loyalty due to the Supreme Pontiff.
I think the reactions came from a lack of understanding, not from meanness.
 
I think it is because he is the Pope and, in general, we have lost the traditional understanding of the love and loyalty due to the Supreme Pontiff.
I don’t know so much that we have lost the understanding; rather many of us seem to have become our own popes and we have our own vision of what the Church should and shouldn’t be or do or whatever.

The internet has, in this regard, done more harm than good. Opinions are fine. However, since the advent of internet fora, it seems to me that we have elevated our personal opinions to infallible pronouncements.

In short, we are a mess and have lost a lot as Catholics in many ways. :o
 
In my experience, knowledge of these things stops with people much below age 60.

Anyone 50 years old today was about 1 year old when the Latin Mass began disappearing. They probably don’t remember it at all.

Otherwise, now that you re-phrased what you were saying, I’m inclined to agree on a lot of points.
I’m below age 60 and I remember the change. Granted, I was too young to say specifically what that change was, but I remember the feeling and thinking 'Wait a minute. This isn’t how it’s supposed to be."
 
I don’t know so much that we have lost the understanding; rather many of us seem to have become our own popes and we have our own vision of what the Church should and shouldn’t be or do or whatever.

The internet has, in this regard, done more harm than good. Opinions are fine. However, since the advent of internet fora, it seems to me that we have elevated our personal opinions to infallible pronouncements.

In short, we are a mess and have lost a lot as Catholics in many ways. :o
This is true, definitely, but in defense of the laity and such, we now have Cardinals expressing approval of civil unions. I think there are some pretty valid reasons to at least question some of the Church hierarchy.
 
I think some of it just has to do with the fact that JPII was pope so long and that Benedict/Ratzinger was such a well known figure. We are not used to change. If we’d had 2 or 3 popes during the time of JPII, people would be much more used to popes (even secular popes) doing things differently, having different priorities, wearing different vestments.

As it is, anyone under 40 say - or who converted less than 40 years ago - really only have the experience of 2 previous popes.
And NONE of us, for generations, have experience with a religious pope.
 
This is true, definitely, but in defense of the laity and such, we now have Cardinals expressing approval of civil unions. I think there are some pretty valid reasons to at least question some of the Church hierarchy.
You’re right, McCall.
 
This is true, definitely, but in defense of the laity and such, we now have Cardinals expressing approval of civil unions. I think there are some pretty valid reasons to at least question some of the Church hierarchy.
I’ll just go and ditto that.

Well, I’ll also add, to connect this thread with the other one, that these sorts of actions (or inactions) on the part of the heirarchy lends more criticism of the implementation of Vatican II. I really think that a lot of these things are woven together.

Like I said, the Church sorely needs clarity in so many ways.
 
I think the reactions came from a lack of understanding, not from meanness.
I saw a lot of people judging the pope’s motives and any Catholic should know better. We never know why others do things. We can only judge actions, not what is in people’s hearts. It is basic Catholic morality to assume, as much as possible, that people have good intentions. It would be a problem to assume bad motives about anyone, but this was worse because we owe a special respect to the Pope.
 
I don’t know so much that we have lost the understanding; rather many of us seem to have become our own popes and we have our own vision of what the Church should and shouldn’t be or do or whatever.

The internet has, in this regard, done more harm than good. Opinions are fine. However, since the advent of internet fora, it seems to me that we have elevated our personal opinions to infallible pronouncements.

In short, we are a mess and have lost a lot as Catholics in many ways. :o
I agree that this is a major factor.
 
I’ll just go and ditto that.
I mean, I wish with all my heart that we had the kind of hierarchy that I could place my whole trust in, like others are saying… but we don’t.

Br. JR mentioned that as a Franciscan he is to follow the Holy Father and not have an opinion of his own. Fine, but what if a Cardinal was elected that approved civil unions, or something like that. Would you follow? Would we as the laiety?

I think we are faced with these questions, and its not enough to hide our heads in the sand and say I trust the Pope/hierarchy/Cardinals etc implicitly. Frankly, not all of them deserve our trust. (For reference, I am NOT referring to Pope Francis here)
 
I mean, I wish with all my heart that we had the kind of hierarchy that I could place my whole trust in, like others are saying… but we don’t.

Br. JR mentioned that as a Franciscan he is to follow the Holy Father and not have an opinion of his own. Fine, but what if a Cardinal was elected that approved civil unions, or something like that. Would you follow? Would we as the laiety?

I think we are faced with these questions, and its not enough to hide our heads in the sand and say I trust the Pope/hierarchy/Cardinals etc implicitly. Frankly, not all of them deserve our trust. (For reference, I am NOT referring to Pope Francis here)
But, what would you lose by doing so - putting your trust in the hierarchy and leaving the rest to God?

I’ll be honest.

If I can’t trust the Church - forget it.
 
I mean, I wish with all my heart that we had the kind of hierarchy that I could place my whole trust in, like others are saying… but we don’t.

Br. JR mentioned that as a Franciscan he is to follow the Holy Father and not have an opinion of his own. Fine, but what if a Cardinal was elected that approved civil unions, or something like that. Would you follow? Would we as the laiety?

I think we are faced with these questions, and its not enough to hide our heads in the sand and say I trust the Pope/hierarchy/Cardinals etc implicitly. Frankly, not all of them deserve our trust. (For reference, I am NOT referring to Pope Francis here)
I have seen the media consistently report religious news inaccurately (either through ignorance or agenda) and huge numbers of people respond with emotional, unresearched reactions. Catholics (and others) become upset and indignant without knowing what was actually said or the background to it. Many people jump to conclusions and express themselves disrespectfully. This is just wrong.

There is a place for thoughtful respectful questioning, but it does not seem to be on the Internet.
 
But, what would you lose by doing so - putting your trust in the hierarchy and leaving the rest to God?

I’ll be honest.

If I can’t trust the Church - forget it.
Well, if I had put my trust in the Cardinal that missed the conclave becasue of his homosexual misconduct scandal, or the Cardinal that recently approved civil unions, I would lose a lot. What if one of these men had been Pope? They were one step away.

Personally, I’ve been in a very strong tension lately because, while I love the Church deeply and want to dedicate my life to serving it, I can’t honestly say I trust it. It’s a very painful situation 😦
 
But, what would you lose by doing so - putting your trust in the hierarchy and leaving the rest to God?

I’ll be honest.

If I can’t trust the Church - forget it.
Do not put your trust in princes, in human beings, who cannot save. Psalm 146:3

There is a difference between trusting the teachings of the Church and trusting the men of the Church.
 
A very short while back, I stopped opening, reading and contributing to the many threads and discussions here and elsewhere about the latest Pope Francis “thing.” I only opened this one because Br. JR had started it, and I do follow his teachings pretty closely.

To the original question posted by Brother, I have no clue. I’ve tried to understand and sympathize with Lucky and McCall and others who have calmly tried to explain their concerns or worries. But though I do keep them both in daily prayer (as Lucky once asked), I truly don’t “get” where they are coming from.

Others, have been much less charitable in their criticisms, and this, I confess, has finally just made me too distressed. The complaints seem to be very fear-based. There is fear that these changes, though small, will lead to some big doctrinal changes. Or that the media will misinterpret them. Well, of course the media will. The Media could care less about God Himself, much less Catholicism! I just don’t worry about that stuff, myself. The Church is led by the Holy Spirit - I trust that implicitly. The first and most important pope as a convert was Bl. JPII. He told us not to be afraid. I really believe him. All will be well. I feel that in my bones. Mine was not an easy conversion, but when I finally fell off my horse, I really had the Holy Spirit knocked into me. Besides, I have enough to worry about for my own salvation without worrying about a sandwich being anything more than just… a sandwich.

Perhaps the problem with not understanding, appreciating and allowing Pope Francis to live his life as a Religious and still be a Pope lies in not entirely understanding what being a Religious means? I read a lot about the Saints who were Religious when I was going through my own conversion from Jew to Christian. But I’m still learning so much from Brother JR.

I sense that the Rules of a Religious order are not the same as say, driving laws. You can make a right on a red in California. You can’t in NJ (or couldn’t the last time I drove there). The rules of the road varied by location, local conditions and what works best for a certain place. But Religious Rules are internalized, taken for life and are meant to change the essential “you.”

Now, the Church teaches us that the Religious Life serves a great purpose for the individuals who are chosen by God and freely choose to accept that path. It also teaches us that the Religious Orders serve the Church by their prayer, their works and their example. No doubt that example is the sticking point for many. Personally, I find it freeing. But then, I’ve been told that over the years, I have myself become rather monastic in my personal life and knowing that others feel the same call to simplicity is rather a relief.

So that’s my meanderings on the subject. Now I will probably return to ignoring most of these, "oh dear, look what the Pope’s done now) threads because they really do upset me.

Sorry so long, but I’ve been mulling all this over for a long time and it felt good to put it into words.

Praying for all of us!
 
Do not put your trust in princes, in human beings, who cannot save. Psalm 146:3

There is a difference between trusting the teachings of the Church and trusting the men of the Church.
That sounds almost protestant thinking to me.
 
Well, if I had put my trust in the Cardinal that missed the conclave becasue of his homosexual misconduct scandal, or the Cardinal that recently approved civil unions, I would lose a lot. What if one of these men had been Pope? They were one step away.

Personally, I’ve been in a very strong tension lately because, while I love the Church deeply and want to dedicate my life to serving it, I can’t honestly say I trust it. It’s a very painful situation 😦
Yes, it is painful. I understand completely what you are going through. I will say no more, because I cannot on CAF.
 
That sounds almost protestant thinking to me.
Why? Are we to trust everything that Church leaders say/do? Especially if they go against Church teaching? Or how about trusting the Church leaders who helped cover up the sex abuse for years?

They are just “men” who sin and make mistakes just like the rest of us.
 
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