Is it allowable for a Catholic husband to be the sole provider for his wife?

[OurBeloved]

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No – it would not be a lie. It just not fit your “agenda” – that a working mother – who devotes to having quality time with her family – can be just as successful – as a stay at home mom.

What I said logically follows and I demonstrated how, when accounted for quality, the stay at home mother still has advantage.

But you keep bringing up “quality” when I already accounted for it. So it is really not a matter of agenda but a matter of understanding.

 

[LemonAndLime]

I thought you said you didn’t want to discuss this anymore with me?

But to answer the question, the problem here is that our culture right now is already distorted. There are no defined roles for our mothers. We destroyed the culture we had starting from the 1800’s and now we have no traditions or values to turn to. We are a civilization at loss that just does whatever we can think of and hope it works. So even when we have a mother stay at home, she is at a loss as to what to do with the time.

Ah yes, the past was so rosy. I suppose it was easier back then, what with children working in the factories alongside the parents. No need for childcare. That’s how they did it!

A study performed in a non-Western culture would in this sense be more fruitful. These cultures still have well defined roles. In such a culture, it would be able to measure the performance of working mothers vs. stay at home mothers.

I wasn’t aware there was a problen defining between the two in Western cultures.

By the way, I am returning to the conversation as it is too entertaining to resist. I’m sorry, I cannot take you seriously until you provide some proof of your facts.

 

[OurBeloved]

One wonders how society has coped up until now.

Actually, the society is in a downward spiral. It has coped up to now thanks to immigration and whatever values we have remaining. Once you remove those factors, the ones who have been local to the country are not really doing well.

This is an unfortunate but undeniable truth.

 

[OurBeloved]

Ah yes, the past was so rosy. I suppose it was easier back then, what with children working in the factories alongside the parents. No need for childcare. That’s how they did it!

The sad part here is that you keep considering only Western history. You do realize that this conversations is really a bit imbalanced considering how much difference in knowledge we both have?

I wasn’t aware there was a problen defining between the two in Western cultures.

By the way, I am returning to the conversation as it is too entertaining to resist.

Well this wouldn’t be the first thing you were unaware of, right?

Now if this were a classroom, I would love to sit down and have a chat with you and try to educate you more about the issues of present day society and history of other non-western cultures. But unfortunately this is not a class room and you obviously have no intention in acting like a good student.

So I think, it is safe to say that until you are more informed on the issue, we should discontinue discussion.

 

[LemonAndLime]

The sad part here is that you keep considering only Western history. You do realize that this conversations is really a bit imbalanced considering how much difference in knowledge we both have?

I’m being as vague as you are.

Well this wouldn’t be the first thing you were unaware of, right?

Now if this were a classroom, I would love to sit down and have a chat with you and try to educate you more about the issues of present day society and history of other non-western cultures. But unfortunately this is not a class room and you obviously have no intention in acting like a good student.

So I think, it is safe to say that until you are more informed on the issue, we should discontinue discussion.

Still don’t know what non-western cultures I’m meant to know about. Or what evidence of yours I’m meant to look at. So if I’m a bad student, then you’re a bad teacher. You’ve shown up without knowing what to call your lesson and without any material to “teach” me.

Again, how am I meant to inform myself on something you seem to refuse to provide any facts or hard evidence for? Or am I just meant to read your posts and agree with you? I am extremely confused.

 

[Walking_Home]

Walking_Home:

No – it would not be a lie. It just not fit your “agenda” – that a working mother – who devotes to having quality time with her family – can be just as successful – as a stay at home mom.

What I said logically follows and I demonstrated how, when accounted for quality, the stay at home mother still has advantage.

But you keep bringing up “quality” when I already accounted for it. So it is really not a matter of agenda but a matter of understanding.

---

Not when it is taken into account – that a working mother can be just as successful – at spending quality time with her family. And in the long run – her family can be just as well cared for.

 

[severus68]

We must always remember that there are exceptions and more importantly, good things do happen out of bad circumstances.

For an example, there are good saints that may come out of a broken family. A person who grew up in a same sex family can claim that he/sh had a great experience of the family. But these are just the exception and not the norm. There is also the practical issue where a person who grew up in such a family might not obviously know what it is like to grow up in a different family. So they cannot say what they missed.

Practically, it is a fact that the child who grows up in a family where the mother is at home has more chance to interact with the mother (and for the mother to take care of the children) compared to parents who both go to work. We must keep in mind that we must consider families where parents are both willing to love their kids. This removes the parents who stay at home but show no love or concern for their children from the equation. These families have other important things wrong with the family. But when that factor is equal/accounted for, the loving parents who both work have less time to show that love for their kids compared to a family where the mother is home.

The person who you quoted might have had a much more gratifying experience had their mother been at home. It is hard for someone who has grown up in such an environment to see what they might have missed, obviously and understandably. However, it is possible for someone who grew up in an environment where their mother is at home to easily see what the other person is missing. Anyway, I think we shouldn’t put much weight on anecdotal evidence but rather on the facts. In that sense, the fact remains that the time left for children is less in a family where both parents work.

Since you talk about facts’, it is a fact that quality time and attention are more important for children than mere quantity.

 

[severus68]

I believe a wife should stay at home, especially when there are children.

In the case where a couple is unable to conceive children, as someone before had said, it is probably possible to make things work differently and probably even necessary. In such a case, the couple may decide to work together with a 100% commitment to achieve a certain goal to the betterment of orphans/sick etc.

But even in such a case, if a husband and wife just decide to work toward, for an example, becoming the VP of a company, that is just blind earthly ambition.

Overall, the problem seems to be that our culture has ingrained in most of us the idea that our jobs are an end in it-self. Your worth will be measured by what you do in an organization rather than in a family. This is why your immediate observation was that the wife will be unable to pursue her ambitions if she stays at home. But such blind ambitions are what causes the harmony between husband and wife to breakdown.

The correct ambition or goal of a husband and wife should be family. All the other desires and actions must be ordered in this sense. So wife lovingly chooses to stay at home and take care of the children while the husband does everything he can to provide for his family and love them. This entire picture is distorted once you bring in career ambitions in to the picture.

When you ask why can’t both pursue career ambitions, the answer is really simple. When both parents are working toward career goals, the amount of time for their children are limited. Parents who stay at home have a hard time balancing house chores with taking care of children and teaching them right and wrong. So it is almost a fact to say that parents who work have less time for their kids compared to children who live here.

Therefore, when one considers practically what is best for the good of the family, and discard things like career ambitions, it is almost intuitive what needs to be done.

ehusband could just as well stay at home.

 

[severus68]

This bears repeating:

Yes, agreed.

 

[severus68]

I thought you said you didn’t want to discuss this anymore with me?

But to answer the question, the problem here is that our culture right now is already distorted. There are no defined roles for our mothers. We destroyed the culture we had starting from the 1800’s and now we have no traditions or values to turn to. We are a civilization at loss that just does whatever we can think of and hope it works. So even when we have a mother stay at home, she is at a loss as to what to do with the time.

A study performed in a non-Western culture would in this sense be more fruitful. These cultures still have well defined roles. In such a culture, it would be able to measure the performance of working mothers vs. stay at home mothers.

Why don’t you than quote from authoritative sites which show non Western mothers staying at home by choice with well fed, well educated children.

You appear to just want to tell mothers that their role and place is home.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Since you talk about facts’, it is a fact that quality time and attention are more important for children than mere quantity.

The “quality time” concept has been largely debunked. Children need quantity time, not being written into their parents’ agenda as an item to be ticked off. Ideally, all the time would be “quality time,” but the idea that kids are content with just 1/2 hour of a parent’s busy day, is totally bogus. That was a rationalization for workaholics to use, to justify all of their time away from their kids.

This webpage is awful b/c the background is yellow, but the subject matter is pertinent.

The Myth of Quality Time - Newsweek 1997

I think this quote is funny, but true.

But many are starting to question whether time devoted to theft children really can be efficiently penciled into the day’s calendar, like a business appointment with a couple of short, excitable clients

p.s. For some unknown reason, the times in this article are listed as “4:80,” “7:80” instead of “4:30,” or “7:30.” I suppose the scanning software didn’t pick it up?

 

[severus68]

The “quality time” concept has been largely debunked. Children need quantity time, not being written into their parents’ agenda as an item to be ticked off. Ideally, all the time would be “quality time,” but the idea that kids are content with just 1/2 hour of a parent’s busy day, is totally bogus. That was a rationalization for workaholics to use, to justify all of their time away from their kids.

This webpage is awful b/c the background is yellow, but the subject matter is pertinent.

The Myth of Quality Time - Newsweek 1997

I think this quote is funny, but true.

But many are starting to question whether time devoted to theft children really can be efficiently penciled into the day’s calendar, like a business appointment with a couple of short, excitable clients

p.s. For some unknown reason, the times in this article are listed as “4:80,” “7:80” instead of “4:30,” or “7:30.” I suppose the scanning software didn’t pick it up?

Spending quality time means **quality **time, playing, teaching, loving your children, not penning them in your appointment books. The article is an article giving and trying to support a point of view.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Spending quality time means **quality **time, playing, teaching, loving your children, not penning them in your appointment books. The article is an article giving and trying to support a point of view.

And that all takes TIME, lots of it. That’s the reality.

 

[severus68]

And that all takes TIME, lots of it. That’s the reality.

Some women make better mothers when they work outside, meeting and working with other adults. They come home better able to care and be with their children.

 

[Diana_Catherine]

Prove it.

Although what you say is almost laughable. Can you imagine a member of the Royal family allowing her servants to bring their children to work with them, and then allow their children to play together? No, it wouldn’t happen.

Prove it.

Again, how can you look after your children while working as a cook? No, it didn’t happen.

This is one thing I can agree on. Women could work because elderly relatives could watch younger children. See, now you’re beginning to figure out how it worked.

So would a teacher stop being a teacher if they had another child? Where are you getting this information from?

I am the only one who has actually proven what I am saying, so I do not think this is an equal conversation. You are all talk and no hard evidence, so how am I meant to take you seriously?

One thing I think Lemon Lime you are forgetting. Historically culture wasn’t as it is today. There wasn’t television, computers and a lot of things to occupy our time as we have today. Families had to work hard and work their own land as a family just to put food on the table. Children worked a long side both parents. Children learned to work in the fields at very young ages. Women worked a long side their husbands. It was the family farm and if you lived in the city you still helped the family around the house. Mom was there. There weren’t supermarkets and fast foods like today and food had to be prepared, canned, frozen, cooked and ready when husbands and children came home. People didn’t even have the restaurants we have today. Even laundry, no great washers and dryers or dishwasher. Taking care of the home. Women worked hard for their family so their family could survive.

Gosh, all you have to do is read Little House on the Prairie or Spencer’s Mountain but if you don’t have time for that here is an article that appeared as an editorial Laura Ingalls Wilder placed in the Mansfield Newspaper. You will notice in the article the pioneer woman talks about always having a baby to care for and later talks about how children were working right along side the mother or father and that is just how it was.

I am also including another link which is rules for teachers dated 1872 and 1915. You will notice once married they were no longer teachers.

Also, the link you provided from BBC, once read, actually talks about two studies and it says they contradict themselves, so it really isn’t proof of what you are saying.

Day cares and careers are a modern development.

pioneergirl.com/ruralist_08_01_1921.htm

cedu.niu.edu/blackwell/oneroom/aboutTeachers.shtml

A teacher as you can see from my link was usually not a married woman.

 

[Lujack]

I am also including another link which is rules for teachers dated 1872 and 1915. You will notice once married they were no longer teachers.

Just so you know, those “rules for teachers” are never really historically accurate. They’re just sort of out there as an urban legend/joke.

 

[Diana_Catherine]

Just so you know, those “rules for teachers” are never really historically accurate. They’re just sort of out there as an urban legend/joke.

I am glad you said that. It gave me the opportunity to change one of my link to show that the rules come from the state of Wisconsin and are found and documented in this book.
I do not believe they are just jokes people are making up today.

amazon.com/One-Room-Country-Schools-Recollections-Wisconsin/dp/0942495535/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1334540648&sr=8-1-fkmr0

 

[OurBeloved]

ehusband could just as well stay at home.

Very good that you brought this up again. I believe I talked in my initial post to you about how people confuse father, mother to be identical and believe anyone can fulfill that role regardless of gender. I think your case would be a prime example of such specimens.

Unfortunately there are many like you out there who live in this confusion. I am honestly not sure what the solution is to get rid of these sort of naive concepts. But I am sure God has a way and I will continue to pray to him.

In the meantime, it will always help if you inform yourself more as well to what the reality is. I have come to notice some jarring errors in your thoughts which is probably what is leading you down this road of bad conclusions. The good news is, once you recognize your problem, you will be be able to inform yourself more and fix it fast. The bad news, is usually personal pride and ones own life style can get in the way. I hope with God’s grace, you will receive the ability to do the right thing and fix your errors.

You will then not only teach your children well, if you have any by God’s grace, but also be a good example to those who know you

 

[OurBeloved]

Still don’t know what non-western cultures I’m meant to know about. Or what evidence of yours I’m meant to look at. So if I’m a bad student, then you’re a bad teacher. You’ve shown up without knowing what to call your lesson and without any material to “teach” me.

Again, how am I meant to inform myself on something you seem to refuse to provide any facts or hard evidence for? Or am I just meant to read your posts and agree with you? I am extremely confused.

I think you are perhaps not reading properly. I said I am not doing the role of teacher here. I was assuming some level of formal knowledge on your part as I wrote. But it appears there is a ton missing yet you like to pass on second hand information and hold on to them as authoritative. It feels like discussing Calculus with someone who has barely passed Grade 1 and only heard about it through their elder brother or sister.

All you need to read or study are some first year courses on non-western History and Anthropology. I wish you all the best in your studies of this subject and I am sure you will find some pretty surprising discoveries considering what you currently believe.

The discussion between you and me is over!

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Some women make better mothers when they work outside, meeting and working with other adults. They come home better able to care and be with their children.

I know I hear this all the time. But there is a part of me that feels, just be honest, you give the best part of yourself to your workplace and not your family.