Is it alright for a Catholic (or any Christian really) to read the Koran?

[trickster]

I would say the answer depends on the person. If you don’t feel it’s a threat and have the maturity to read it, then I see nothing wrong. If you detect any doubts or problems in reading it that threatens your faith, then I would suggest speaking with a spiritual advisor or abandon it altogether. If you are secure, then read it.

Awesome! I agree.

Bruce
Trickster

 

[jonbhorton]

**I believe the original question focused on whether or not it was ok for Christians to read the Koran. I believe it is not only ok, it is really important to understand the tenants of the Koran…
**

You’re doing awesomely right up to this point. In fact, your seemingly accidental use of an ellipses could almost count as a convincing argument that you didn’t mean to say what you said following the ellipses. Of course, as we’ll later see, in context, you in fact are comparing, and placing on the same level, the inerrant and inspired Word of God, the insanely awesome adventure through time and space autobiography of Our

“… Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, one in being with the Father. Through Him all things were made. For us men and our salvation He came down from heaven: by the power of the Holy Spirit, He was born of the Virgin Mary , and became man. For our sake He was crucified under Pontius Pilate; He suffered, died, and was buried. On the third day He rose again in fulfillment of the scriptures: He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end. …”.

 

[jonbhorton]

cont.
**
there are many horror stories, sexually heated stories in the Hebrew Bible as well! **

Ladies and Gentlemen, boys and girls, there it is. The koran is on the same level as the “Hebrew Bible”, which, of course, is part 1 of God’s people. Chosen to be a proxy for humanity and to establish a people with a defined and unique heritage. A people from which Salvation springs forth, and a people who, like the human race they represent, reject this Salvation. A people who eventually will cry out for their Moshiach, their God, Their Redeemer, and they will finally say the most beautiful words ever uttered from the lips of a people: Blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord.

The koran says: kill them.

**
It is not helpful to be critical of the narratives at the expense of the much larger inter-religious dialogue that we should be engaged with. Creating a “bad muslim” “good christian” duality is what has led this world to nuclear destruction not to mention terrorism…think about how critical over-analysis of text narratives is not helpful…

Bruce
**

Of course, the people who diligently follow the koran, ya know, the supposed “extremists”, they read the text critically. Us people who actually care about what it is we’re supposed to be so accepting of, despite years of, well, evidence to the contrary nature of their claims versus what actually transpires: we too read it critically, but without belief. I’m sure the Nigerian Christians who were getting slaughtered by Boko Haram, or the Iraqi Catholics who were shot up in church, or Asia Bibi in Pakistan, or the Indonesian schoolgirls who get their heads cut off on the way to or from school, or the Coptic women who are kidnapped and forced to “convert” to mohammedanism via “marriage”: whose rescue from the captivity literally starts neighborhood war and reprisals, or the Martyrs of Cordoba, Spain … I’m sure they all had dialogue with their executioners, bombers, trigger pullers, jailers, rapists. It probably went something like: “Please don’t do this! Jesus! Mary! Save us! AGGHHGHHHHHH”. The “reply”? allahu akbar, lights out. Asia Bibi still faces this last time I checked.

There is no dialogue when you’re on your knees and a blade is to your neck. The only thing that happens if you don’t convert or pay jizya is you cough and choke on your own blood. Trying hard to breathe. Coughing, coughing, screaming. But every time you cough, your natural reaction is to breathe in, and the cycle continues. Depending on how the cut was done, and how deep they went, and if they really are trying for a full decapitation, you might not lose consciousness until they finally hit your spinal column. It’s a vicious and horrible way to die. They figured out this behavior and justify it with the very text you refuse to read critically.

Choose your associations wisely.

 

[jonbhorton]

The point I see you trying to make is weak and unexplained. If you wish to expound on your point, perhaps it would make more sense.

Ya see, what you did was insinuate that Catholics are accused of something, that they don’t do it despite such evidence to the contrary, based on evidence to the contrary from scripture. Somehow trying to draw the conclusion that applies to mohammedanism as well. Well, try again.

Let me ask, what is the fruit of such things? Do we cut off heads? Evangelize by the sword? Impose heavy taxes on non-believers, or kill them if they refuse to pay said taxes?

No. Such behavior is not prescribed anywhere in the Bible. It is described and authoritative as a way of life in the koran.

If mohammedanism was just its own offshoot and insular deal, I wouldn’t care as much. It’s not. It seeks global domination through the methods I described and that’s just textual. Never mind the fruit of the text, which is satanic and utterly depraved when followed as exhorted to follow it, is equally horrible.

 

[jonbhorton]

You miss the entire point that the sins of mankind, and thus sinners, which have usurped or acted in defiance of Christian doctrine, despite claiming said title, are not condoned but are condemned in the Bible- particularly as it relates to Christian doctrine, and even the comparison of OT conquering by Israel is a complete obfuscation of the fact that the Hebrews were not then, nor now, commanded to do what mohammedanism does and is commanded to do.

What mohammedanism does, in doing these things, is follows their text to the letter and tradition to the maximum fidelity possible.

In other words:

Christianity is not equal to the sins of those claiming Christendom. Further, no evangelizing by the sword as specific to an evangelical focus took place. And if it did, its not Biblical. You’re lying about history of the Church at this point. The only exhortation in history of the Church that I know of, was the Crusades which actually sought to reclaim the Holy Land from the oppression of the mohammedan curse which plagued it. They were defending those places from the urchins of Arabia’s deserts.

That mohammedanism does these things in accordance with their koran and hadith, means that such behavior is part and parcel to mohammedanism itself, and in fact is not the rebellious and callous nature of those just usurping or abusing the title of “muslim”.

Broad brush? More like paint thinner to strip away the thin layer of a painted lie steeped and in, and covering, their perfidy: a deceit which is germane to their process of world domination.

 

[GoldenLight]

To save yoourself precious time, when you could instead read truly inspired scripture, forget the Koran. If you need to know what Muslim beliefs are and how they are held by the individual, what effect it has on them spiritually and socially, I would respectfully point you in the direction of Daniel Shayesteh who has published books concerning his own “escape” fom darkness to the light. I would point out that he was a leading Iranian Muslim who at the age of 9 could recite the whole of the Koran, extremely well versed in Islamic studies and assisted in the overthrow of the Shah and the installing of the Ayatollah.
In my opinion, and it is only that, the Koran is neither holy or inspired, but rather the work of a self deluded man greedy for power, his ravings rejected by Jews and Christians of his day.
A quick look at the Catholic Encyclopedia, regarding the Koran, should help also.
**I would point out that despite my abhorrence of the Koran, my home is also the current home of of a cradle Muslim, a possible future son-in-law. Yes I respect the individual, and his belief.
Hate the sin not the sinner (so to speak)**Peace be with you.
Francis

I pray that your daughters boyfriend is with her for the ‘right’ reasons… (and not for a quick passport to the UK) Unfortunately, I saw much of this before I emmigrated…

I read the qur’an some 30 yrs ago, I was in the same University college in Wales as a lot of Lybians… I grew to have a healthy ‘respect’ for most of them… As with Bolyen’s comments I too personally believe they are misguided in their beliefs and they are nothing more than ramblings… Although I think there was a little Demonic oppression thrown into the mix!!

I learned to speak some Arabic, and more importantly to count in Arabic… *(used to play Table Tennis with them… and they really didn’t like me ‘a woman’ beating them so they would try and confuse me by keeping score in Arabic… and then tell me it in English.). *After thinking H’mmm I thought I should have won … I learnt to count !!

During Ramadan, I was invited and participated in their breaking of fast!! Oh what great food!!

Many of these Muslims gave me Christmas Cards, some even bought me gifts, they had no problems saying Merry Christmas… Boney M was in the charts at the time, most would be going round singing ‘Mary’s Boy Child Jesus Christ was Born on Christmas Day’ When I asked them about this … The response was… Jesus was a good and Holy Man, we don’t think he was the Son of God, but some 'minor Prophet… Jesus was a good Man so his mother was too, we are taught to love and respect our Mothers…

So not all Muslims are extremists, many albeit misguided ~ believe they are on the right path and like us aspire to lead good and decent lives… I did fall for one of them…We had many a discussion of Faith, however I finally turned my back when I realized that the faith issue was something neither of us could cross…

 

[boleyn2010]

Hello Boleyn…thanks for acknowledging my particular point. If you are familiar with my threads and responses (and there are a lot) I do not have an aggressive or “browbeating” style. However, what I was responding to was an arrogance that builds walls. The villianization of a people and their religion based on scriptural narratives is not helpful…and it is dangerous to world peace. I think we are all grown ups and when we say what we think we ought to expect to be reacted to…I don’t or haven’t taken personally what people have said to me…and it is everything from dissenter, pagan, misinformed, obsessed with aboriginal people and so forth…those are the “brow beating” I get from those in our family who are “traditional” or “conservative”…and those are really a minority of all the great thinkers (who are awesome orthodox conservative Catholics) on this site…so believe me I was very gentle in making my point.

Your point in terms of the New Testament…well Jesus said that we must go to the ends of the earth. Inculturation is where gospel meets culture and when that happens discussions, conversation and building an understanding takes place. *** Also as Catholics the scriptures are only one source of teaching and inter-religious dialogue is a key initiative of the Vatican and the Vatican I think you will agree represents a direction of tolerance which we must own in our own lives. We do not do that when we shut down our minds, hearts and souls to people who are different. ***

Have I at any point disputed this? And at no time have I “shut down (my) mind, heart or soul to people who are different”. I rage against the lies which bind them.
Peace be with you
Francis.

 

[boleyn2010]

I pray that your daughters boyfriend is with her for the ‘right’ reasons… (and not for a quick passport to the UK) Unfortunately, I saw much of this before I emmigrated…

I read the qur’an some 30 yrs ago, I was in the same University college in Wales as a lot of Lybians… I grew to have a healthy ‘respect’ for most of them… As with Bolyen’s comments I too personally believe they are misguided in their beliefs and they are nothing more than ramblings… Although I think there was a little Demonic oppression thrown into the mix!!

I learned to speak some Arabic, and more importantly to count in Arabic… *(used to play Table Tennis with them… and they really didn’t like me ‘a woman’ beating them so they would try and confuse me by keeping score in Arabic… and then tell me it in English.). *After thinking H’mmm I thought I should have won … I learnt to count !!

During Ramadan, I was invited and participated in their breaking of fast!! Oh what great food!!

Many of these Muslims gave me Christmas Cards, some even bought me gifts, they had no problems saying Merry Christmas… Boney M was in the charts at the time, most would be going round singing ‘Mary’s Boy Child Jesus Christ was Born on Christmas Day’ When I asked them about this … The response was… Jesus was a good and Holy Man, we don’t think he was the Son of God, but some 'minor Prophet… Jesus was a good Man so his mother was too, we are taught to love and respect our Mothers…

So not all Muslims are extremists, many albeit misguided ~ believe they are on the right path and like us aspire to lead good and decent lives… I did fall for one of them…We had many a discussion of Faith, however I finally turned my back when I realized that the faith issue was something neither of us could cross…

Hi GoldenLight.
I agree that many Muslims are, in my experience, attempting to lead good and holy lives much as we are. And most that I have had encounters with are blissfully unaware of the content of the koran and hadith. Most however are aware of the concept of jihad and martyrdom, and the fact that Islam forbids them to befriend the infidel, partake of alcohol etc. but frequently set themselves outside the rules quite openly and without seeming remorse, which to me betrays a lack of sincerity in their professed “faith”. But having said this we (Christians) too can be found guilty of neglecting our faith.
Thanks for your concern for my daughter, but rest assured the lad concerned is British born and needs no visa. My immediate concern is for the wellbeing of my granddaughter in regard to her spiritual upbringing. I hope she avoids the koran!!
BTW did you study at Lampeter Uni.?
Peace be with you
Francis

 

[boleyn2010]

Boleyn, you were saying something to me about browbeating? Look, I agree with that post…he or she is only saying that when we live together in a multicultural comunity we ought to try and learn about what people believe in…you may be surprised that you might read a story or meet a muslim person that can transform your thinking and/or understanding of your own faith….

And much to my surprise (and yours?) this has indeed happened, Having a Muslim as a prospective son-in-law and a wife seeking solace from TV Evangelists would I think prompt any person to dig deeper into his/her own faith

---

I think you are hitting below the belt when you compare a “raise in literacy” with respect to Muslem texts and teachings to pornograph, homosexuality and so forth…however, if you have an arguement there, I’m all open ears … you should make it***…

Bruce
Trickster

No argument Trickster. My “comparison” as you put it is perfectly justified. If we are to believe that pornography etc. is morally wrong and therefore to be wholly avoided then the same must be true in regard to false doctrine. To step into the darkness without a dependable light (by this I mean a strong unchangeable faith) would be dangerous at the very least. And to actively encourage the reading of the koran (false doctrine=darkness) by Catholics/Christians, is in my mind equally as dangerous. Rather spend our time guiding the misguided to the Light and never point them toward darkness.
Peace be with you
Francis

 

[GoldenLight]

Hi GoldenLight.
BTW did you study at Lampeter Uni.?
Peace be with you
Francis

Cardiff…

 

[boleyn2010]

There is no dialogue when you’re on your knees and a blade is to your neck. The only thing that happens if you don’t convert or pay jizya is you cough and choke on your own blood. Trying hard to breathe. Coughing, coughing, screaming. But every time you cough, your natural reaction is to breathe in, and the cycle continues. Depending on how the cut was done, and how deep they went, and if they really are trying for a full decapitation, you might not lose consciousness until they finally hit your spinal column. It’s a vicious and horrible way to die. They figured out this behavior and justify it with the very text you refuse to read critically.

Choose your associations wisely.

May I just add something to provoke some thought?
Which lies? The Bible or the koran?
As Christians we believe all our scripture is inspired by God. Muslims believe the koran is inspired by Allah (their one true god?)
***So: The Bible tells us that God’s only begotten Son was Jesus (inspired by God)
The koran says Allah has no son. (inspired by Allah)
If we are to believe that the Muslim god (Allah) is the same as the God of Abraham then somehwere along the line a lie is being told. And the father of all lies is Satan.
Personally I believe wholeheartedly that God (of Abraham) inspired the Bible. And God does not lie. Therefore the “lie” is in the koran. The inspiration therof coming from Allah (aka Satan.)
***Peace be with you.
Francis.

 

[FidesSpesCarita]

You chose an example that is simplistic. Obviously you will not choose a porn site that minimizes women…to equalize what the Koran has to teach as “porn” with respect to your example, again is too black and white…cause the Koran teaches a lot of beauty and yes, people should be exposed to these historical and great writings…to create a simple world of “Christianity written sources = good” and “Islam written sources = bad” is not helpful. You will note that many of the writing in both biblical and koran sources are saying the same thing…and that they are simply different lenses or views of a basic truth that the descendants of Abraham all share. That is the basic assumption that I would have a different take on FidesSpesCarita…anyways, what do you feel is the greatest “falsity” or “untruth” told by the Koran?

Bruce
Trickster

The greatest falsity? Jesus was not the Christ, not the only begotten Son of the Living God, and that Mohammed is greater than Christ.

Let me clarify a point though, I am not referring to “Islam written sources”, I am referring to the Koran ONLY. Yes I used a simplistic example, I often do, but it is to make a point clearly and succinctly. Let me use another one: Suppose I offered you a slice of cake but told you that I had learned that urine is wonderfully healthy for people to ingest and as such had used urine instead of water. Would you try a piece so you understood what it tasted like? I know that I wouldnt and that is just a matter of something “yucky”, not something dangerous for my soul. Or look at an anti-counterfeiting organization for instance (money, art, whatever). Do they study all the fakes they can find to better understand a fake or do they first study the real thing so that they can identify the true item and know a false by its deviation from the true? If there was someone who counterfeited Picasso, would you sit and debate the relative merits of the counterfeiter and their brush strokes or would you say “I want the real thing”?

That’s interesting, because St. Thomas Aquinas owed so much to reading non-Christian works by Aristotle and a whole host of other pagan philosophers, as well as many Muslim ones as well.

Ah but we are not Aquinas. And even Aristotle was led to believe in a creator. The point is not that NOBODY should read opposing things, only that the regular layman puts his faith in jeopardy by approaching the demonic. St. Pio literally fought the devils, but any of us would not be able to survive. St. John Vianney lived on just a few hours of sleep every night for decades, any of us would not be able to do this. Many of the saints survived on nothing but the Eucharist for years on end, this would kill most of us. God grants the Grace to do some things to some people but for us to attempt the great works of others would be presumptuous and wrong. Aristotle is unique, however, as he almost never advocates one position over another but simply analyzed the relative benefits and problems of each. He would advocate his position insofar as he felt his was more correct than others but didnt promote anything truly opposed to the faith that I can recall.

Ever since Jesus Christ came into the world, all thing pertain to Him. Wisdom we ought to seek is no longer the secular wisdom the world gives us and has no mention of Jesus Christ, Wisdom is a gift of the Holy Spirit. There should be no fear of not knowing not anything that does not pertain to Christ. One should be more worried about being ignorant of Christ than ignorant of the koran which btw does not add to our knowledge of Jesus Christ. Should we read the koran…why? If you are a Christian should not our faith, understanding, and knowledge come from the Church, the Bible, & the examples of the Saints and Martyrs. Why such an urgent need to look somewhere else?

It is pretty obvious what is “incompatible with our faith” we do not have to scrutinize it to find some redeeming quality in it right after we learn from the koran that “He Begets not nor is He Begotten…” in islam they don’t even believe in the fall of man and consequently the don’t believe Jesus Christ redeemed the world …so what good could you find that can equal what’s in the Gospel??

In one sense you are right that Catholics do not have a monopoly in believing in a creator or having a creation story, there are many creators from Abassi to Zamba. But believing in a creator is not the same as believing in the Blessed Trinity.

^ This.

 

[karaleigh]

To get a degree in Religious Studies, a person almost has to read the Koran…among other examples of religious literature. Nothing to be afraid of. There is nothing in it that felt inspired to me…only chronicles explained by the writer Muhammad. He said he felt compelled to detail his personal point of view the middle-eastern region following his travels along the orient trade routes. He said he heard of the chronicles the Jews, Greek, and Romans had, and he felt he needed to write something about his life also. He petitioned the religious authorities in Istanbul to add his memories it to their historical studies as Muhammad felt he was a prophet, wise man and clergic himself. Church said that the Koranic writings were not valid for the Holy Texts of Christianity.

Perhaps because of another rumor of that the Catholic Church had their hand in the making of the Koran. It is said that the Koranic texts were compiled during the translation of our ancient religious histories that makes up today’s New American Bible, RE. Muhammad’s Koranic letters(leaflets), he explained he’d found some beginning writings here and there, which he added to. Those beginning writings may have a foundation at the time of thse text rejections were made some 300 years earlier as the texts were not related to the Church’s work of the Holy Religious texts. The Buddhists Sutra is also rumored to be among texts that were rejected as delusions from the ingestion of the Lotus plant. Both, very boring! :bighanky:

With science improving every decade, who can say if a new Catholic translation will find information, or words, that links religious texts together better in some way for others.

 

[hooper496]

Christianity does not support terrorism. Islam tells its followers to fight for Allah. The only way to be assured of going to paradise in Islam is to die fighting for Allah. Which is exactly what these terrorists are doing.

I do not NEED to read the Koran. It’s not essential. Rather, it’s something I’d like to do. Something that (as I’ve outlined in earlier responses) I believe would provide me with the means to understand Islamic faith and doctrine more deeply, to be able to engage more completely in dialectical arguments, and to be able to maintain the level of respect for Islam that I desire for my own religion.

You should respect Muslims as people. And truly respecting them means that you want the best for them, and that is for them to be saved, which can only be done through Jesus Christ. So therefore, respecting Muslims means leading them to the truth of Christ.

You should not have any respect for Islam. It is a false religion. The Qur’ān blasphemes Christ - it says that He was not crucified, and it puts lies in His mouth. To quote Pope Felix III:

“Not to oppose error is to approve it; and not to defend truth is to suppress it, and, indeed, to neglect to confound evil men—when we can do it—is no less a sin than to encourage them.”

I completely agree. I recently got into an online debate with a Muslim who repeatedly rejected the notion that Christ is Divine because he never said the words, “I am God. Worship me.” He was presented with mountains of evidence, primarily from the words and behaviors of Jesus but continued to argue in circles.

I did a little research into the Qur’an and read a few of the Sura regarding Jesus. They call him Isa. in the Qur’an. The verses are muddled. They call him the Mesah (Messiah, I guess) but then deny His crucifixion and Divinity. It became very apparent that Muslims are coming from a very different place entirely. I was deeply troubled by what I was reading in the Qur’an, not because it causes me to question my faith at all, but because it seems so diametrically opposed to what I believe so dearly.

 

[hooper496]

Furthermore, the koran was supposedly given as Arabic only, but, that’s demonstrably false:

I posted a few minutes ago about a dialog I recently had online with a Muslim on another blog. As I mentioned this person would not accept any proof I or others cited from the Bible as to the divinity of Jesus. He repeatedly said that Jesus’ followers were constantly misunderstanding him, and that none of us understood anything about the bible because it is full of “eastern symbolism” that we know nothing about.

When questioned about the Qur’an this fellow then made the same argument that nobody can truly understand it outside of its native Arabic.

Someone then presented the concept that Muslims are told in the Qur’an to deceive and mislead in their discussions with non-believers.

In retrospect, the entire discussion and everything I read about the Qur’an give me the creeps. It really does seem demonic in the way it twists and lies about Jesus, almost like mocking.

I realize everyone wants to keep an open mind here and be kind, and I really want to be also. But wow, we can’t possibly be that far off in our interpretations reading this stuff in English.

Ugh.

 

[hooper496]

In one sense you are right that Catholics do not have a monopoly in believing in a creator or having a creation story, there are many creators from Abassi to Zamba. But believing in a creator is not the same as believing in the Blessed Trinity.

The “god” of the Qur’an appears to be a liar. Why would you want to waste your time reading this garbage?

 

[GoldenLight]

 

[boleyn2010]

You misunderstand my point. Mohammed usurped the name Allah (which incidentally was the name of the pagan moon god before his time and indeed up to then). He claimed his visions came from the one true God whom he named Allah. Labelling me “God” does not make me God.
No inference in my post was intended to deny the fact that the term Allah used by many Catholics today does in fact refer to God. And I do not suggest theey invoke Satan in their prayers
My point in this is that if he did indeed have revelations, and from the errant and contradictory nature of them, one can only conclude that his visions were of his own delusions or were from the father of all lies.
Peace be with you.
Francis.

 

[boleyn2010]

Again you fail to comprehend. I stated a fact. i.e. Allah was the name of the Arab pagan moon god up to and including the time of Mohammed. I did not in any way infer that Muslims worship this pagan moon god . Please do not put words in my mouth.
Peace be with you
Francis

 

[Leegal]

I don’t think you should read the Qur’ān unless you are a seasoned apologist who is very knowedgeable about the Christian faith. Even then, you should only be reading it if you are going to refute it or bring Muslims to the Christian faith.

The god of the Qur’ān is not the Holy Trinity. The Qur’ān specifically says “He [Allah] begetteth not, nor is he begotten” (Qur’ān 112:3). This is a direct contradiction of the Incarnation of Our Lord Jesus Christ. The god of Islam was an Arabian moon god idol worshipped alongside other idols in the Ka’ba in Mecca (the most holy shrine of Islam) Why is the crescent moon the emblem of Islam? Think about it.

The Qur’ān is an evil book, full of verses calling for war against unbelievers. To see the real Islam, I recommend Prophet of Doom by Craig Winn. Islam is the sworn enemy of Christ and Christianity, and we should not let political correctness or religious tolerance cloud our judgement. Their goal is to Islamise the world and make us all live under Shari’ah law.

A little bit of history so that the reading can be in context. Originally, Mohammed dictated the Koran and it was a religion of love and charity and peace.

However, because of the conditions of the time, it was not accepted and so he was chased from Mecca to Medina. After that, his inspirations became more strident and violent. Read in that context, one can see how a religion of peace can be a religion of violence. It’s important to know that Mohammed may have been inspired by those who did not accept his new faith to resort to a new way of thinking – a more violent one.

I have no interest in the Koran, but from a historical perspective it might be interesting to discover where all the peace, love, charity turns into killing people who do not believe. Simply put, the parts dictated in Mecca were different from the parts dicated after he fled to Medina. Hence the contradiction and the ease of self-interpretation.

It is also the first religious book to actually set down inheritance rights for women upon the death of a father. I would venture to guess that that part was written in Mecca.