Is it bad to like Islamic spirituality?

[ialsop]

I am Catholic and I believe totally in Catholic theology. I am against all heresy, especially that of Islam which has waged war on Christendom and Europe.

That said, I do like Islamic spirituality and I use Islamic sources for prayer sometimes. What a contradiction, I know. I love Islam’s dedication to monotheism(they misunderstand the Trinity. I believe totally in the Trinity, but we ARE monotheistic and I love their fierceness about that).
I love their focus on fasting. Fasting is a HUGE part of Islamic life.
I love their traditionalism, in dress, government, and language. They pray in their religion’s mother tongue, they dress traditionally, and they generally accept more pre-democracy governments. I am a cultural traditionalist myself, so this is cool imo.
I am attracted to how they defend their faith. Islam tolerates no heresy, no blasphemy, no apostasy. I am talking about moderate Islam, NOT the liberal Islam of the US, nor the terrorists of ISIS, rather the normal moderates in the Middle East. They will drive heresy out of their country.
I LOVE how most governments of Islamic nations are actually Islamic governments, how the government is committed to safeguarding the Islamic faith.

I try to apply these ideas to Catholicism. Is that bad? A note, Catholicism was just like that in the Middle Ages, but only Islam is like that now, so I often find myself reading Islamic spirituality articles as I research traditional Christianity. Is that a bad thing for me to be like this? Am I hurting my faith, or common sense?

 

[QuidVeritasEst]

Um…well…that’s not at all what I was expecting.

I admire the methods Islam employs to convey its religion, too. I find the recitation of the Qu’ran beautiful, and I find the way in which philosophies similar to, say, Aquinas, are at the very forefront of Islamic religious teaching, whereas with Catholicism, they are more obfuscated, leading to a great deal of fundamentalism.

I also particularly admire two of Muhammad’s proclamations. The first is that “There shall be no compulsion in religion” and the second that “An Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over black nor a black has any superiority over white except by piety and good action”. It is for this reason that I personally do not share your other fixations on “moderate” Islamic countries and find them worrying.

For instance, I find the “kicking out heresy” you describe, to be horrific, terrible ways of communicating religion. Few intelligent humans have ever sincerely and permanently believed in something they have been forced into believing, nor too have any lives been changed, or actions avoided, by the presence of corporal or capital punishment.

To me, religion should be communicated by, as Aquinas taught, providing strong counter arguments for another person’s most compelling beliefs. It should focus on infinite mercy and forgiveness, and on reforming others. It should never be about force, especially since we are fallible humans, unable to speak on moral matters with any authority, unless by coming together. I openly condemn the actions of these “moderate” Islamic countries, and, to me, see your support of them as wrong.

I also have no particular desire to preserve cultures, or obsession with my own, as many of the countries you suggest do. Nationalism has had a horrendous effect on my particular area of the world (Europe). We should seek greater cross-culture understanding and unity, and allow the wider access to media to provide new, stimulating cultures.

 

[Crusaderbear]

Like or respect? When I was in the Gulf i was very impressed by their devotion to their faith. I respect that, I don’t like many of their attitudes towards women, non-muslims, etc.

I never heard the quotes QVE mentions above, but in my admittedly short time there, I didn’t see them in practice at all.

 

[esieffe]

There are, oh, what should we call it, attributes, poets, mystics like Rumi, that are endearing. But you are part of an older body, very rich in tradition and psalm. Replete with Saints, art across all mediums that is even richer.

I think it is perfectly fine to admire what is beautiful in other religions, as long as you understand the vast and incredible fabric of what is already at your fingertips.

Tower of Winds
Vatican

 

[Crusaderbear]

I think it is perfectly fine to admire what is beautiful in other religions, as long as you understand the vast and incredible fabric of what is already at your fingertips.

Admire! That’s the word!

 

[Elizium23]

I also particularly admire two of Muhammad’s proclamations. The first is that “There shall be no compulsion in religion” and the second that “An Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over black nor a black has any superiority over white except by piety and good action”. It is for this reason that I personally do not share your other fixations on “moderate” Islamic countries and find them worrying.

I hope you know that this proclamation was completely and totally abrogated by later teachings and later Quran verses.

Then there is this passage revealed just after the Muslims reached Medina and were still vulnerable:

2:256. There is no compulsion in religion. Verily, the Right Path has become distinct from the wrong path. Whoever disbelieves in Taghut {idolatry} and believes in Allah, then he has grasped the most trustworthy handhold that will never break. And Allah is All-Hearer, All-Knower.

In contrast, take 9:5, commonly referred to as the “Verse of the Sword”, revealed toward the end of Muhammad’s life:

9:5. Then when the Sacred Months (the 1st, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islamic calendar) have passed, then kill the Mushrikun {unbelievers} wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush. But if they repent and perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat {the Islamic ritual prayers}), and give Zakat {alms}, then leave their way free. Verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

Having been revealed later in Muhammad?s life than 50:45, 109, and 2:256, the Verse of the Sword abrogates their peaceful injunctions in accordance with 2:106. Sura 8, revealed shortly before Sura 9, reveals a similar theme:

8:39. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allah) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allah Alone [in the whole of the world]. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allah), then certainly, Allah is All-Seer of what they do.8:67. It is not for a Prophet that he should have prisoners of war (and free them with ransom) until he had made a great slaughter (among his enemies) in the land. You desire the good of this world (i.e. the money of ransom for freeing the captives), but Allah desires (for you) the Hereafter. And Allah is All-Mighty, All-Wise.

9:29. Fight against those who believe not in Allah, nor in the Last Day, nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islam) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

9:33. It is He {Allah} Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islam), to make it superior over all religions even though the Mushrikun (polytheists, pagans, idolaters, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah) hate (it).

The Quran’s commandments to Muslims to wage war in the name of Allah against non-Muslims are unmistakable. They are, furthermore, absolutely authoritative as they were revealed late in the Prophet’s career and so cancel and replace earlier instructions to act peaceably. Without knowledge of the principle of abrogation, Westerners will continue to misread the Quran and misdiagnose Islam as a “religion of peace.”

 

[St_Francis]

It seems to me that what you are attracted to is their dedication rather than the religion itself. And certainly dedication is in short supply in the West So maybe you would like to take the example of dedication and apply it to your own faith? And maybe even find like-minded Catholics, or encourage it among those you already know.

 

[JSAD]

At the core of Islamic Spirituality is that they deny the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

In fact the Koran, is the only historical document that denies the crucifixion of Jesus.

They may be devoted, but that’s because in most(if not all) Islamic societies dissent is not tolerated. A lot of them have become Atheists because of the excesses of Islam.

The world would be better off without them. In fact a lot of Christians would be still alive if not for Islam and a lot of countries(middle east and north africa) would be christian if not for islam.

 

[twf]

Perhaps what you admire about Islam is already present in Catholicism? Have you investigated Syriac Christian spirituality? Or for that matter, the traditions of any of the Oriental Catholic Churches indigenous to the Middle East.

 

[TonyBS]

I am Catholic and I believe totally in Catholic theology. I am against all heresy, especially that of Islam which has waged war on Christendom and Europe.

That said, I do like Islamic spirituality and I use Islamic sources for prayer sometimes. What a contradiction, I know. I love Islam’s dedication to monotheism(they misunderstand the Trinity. I believe totally in the Trinity, but we ARE monotheistic and I love their fierceness about that).
I love their focus on fasting. Fasting is a HUGE part of Islamic life.
I love their traditionalism, in dress, government, and language. They pray in their religion’s mother tongue, they dress traditionally, and they generally accept more pre-democracy governments. I am a cultural traditionalist myself, so this is cool imo.
I am attracted to how they defend their faith. Islam tolerates no heresy, no blasphemy, no apostasy. I am talking about moderate Islam, NOT the liberal Islam of the US, nor the terrorists of ISIS, rather the normal moderates in the Middle East. They will drive heresy out of their country.
I LOVE how most governments of Islamic nations are actually Islamic governments, how the government is committed to safeguarding the Islamic faith.

I try to apply these ideas to Catholicism. Is that bad? A note, Catholicism was just like that in the Middle Ages, but only Islam is like that now, so I often find myself reading Islamic spirituality articles as I research traditional Christianity. Is that a bad thing for me to be like this? Am I hurting my faith, or common sense?

To the answer the question I see it a natural progression to Appreciate Muhammad’s Revelation from God.

You naivety of the Governments of the Muslim Nations is alarming though. Are you aware of their continued Human Rights Abuses of practicing Genocide?

God bless Justice to the Religious Minorities of these Countries to which they in no way enjoy at this time in the world.

Regards Tony

 

[frangiuliano115]

I hope you know that this proclamation was completely and totally abrogated by later teachings and later Quran verses.

Yes. Opposing thoughts, one right next to the other.

Maybe muslims are so devoted because of sharia law?? Yeah. I think so.

Fran

 

[frangiuliano115]

I am Catholic and I believe totally in Catholic theology. I am against all heresy, especially that of Islam which has waged war on Christendom and Europe.

That said, I do like Islamic spirituality and I use Islamic sources for prayer sometimes. What a contradiction, I know. I love Islam’s dedication to monotheism(they misunderstand the Trinity. I believe totally in the Trinity, but we ARE monotheistic and I love their fierceness about that).
I love their focus on fasting. Fasting is a HUGE part of Islamic life.
I love their traditionalism, in dress, government, and language. They pray in their religion’s mother tongue, they dress traditionally, and they generally accept more pre-democracy governments. I am a cultural traditionalist myself, so this is cool imo.
I am attracted to how they defend their faith. Islam tolerates no heresy, no blasphemy, no apostasy. I am talking about moderate Islam, NOT the liberal Islam of the US, nor the terrorists of ISIS, rather the normal moderates in the Middle East. They will drive heresy out of their country.
I LOVE how most governments of Islamic nations are actually Islamic governments, how the government is committed to safeguarding the Islamic faith.

I try to apply these ideas to Catholicism. Is that bad? A note, Catholicism was just like that in the Middle Ages, but only Islam is like that now, so I often find myself reading Islamic spirituality articles as I research traditional Christianity. Is that a bad thing for me to be like this? Am I hurting my faith, or common sense?

I suggest you try moving to one of those islamic nations you LOVE for a few years and then come back and report.

 

[ialsop]

Perhaps what you admire about Islam is already present in Catholicism? Have you investigated Syriac Christian spirituality? Or for that matter, the traditions of any of the Oriental Catholic Churches indigenous to the Middle East.

No, I have not, but that sound interesting. Thanks! I will look that up.

 

[ialsop]

Did I say I love islamic nations? NO.

I said I LOVE how Islamic governments are faithful to their people’s religion and spiritual traditions.

Get it right before you post, guys.

So, I would like it if our governments respected the religious and spiritual traditions of US. Like in the Middle Ages.

 

[theropod]

I often find myself reading Islamic spirituality articles as I research traditional Christianity. Is that a bad thing for me to be like this? Am I hurting my faith, or common sense?

Yeah, reading things authored directly by the father of lies…that’s going to help draw you closer to Christ!

 

[ialsop]

Also, I read Templar International, perhaps the MOST anti-Islamic news source out there. I am in NO way condoning Islam as a religion. I am condoning Islam as a WORD, which means submission to God, and condoning the PASSION for their faith they have.

You all seem to be against the idea of a religious government, because you are comfortable, perhaps, in secular wonderland of Europe and America? I dont know. .I dont mean to judge you, but your responses seem a little harsh. I never professed to like any Islamic governments and their actions, only the conceptual design of a religious government.

AND a minor historical correction, the Koran was NOT the only historical document that denied the Crucifixion. For example, the Jewish Talmud. I am sure there are others.

 

[ComplineSanFran]

They may be devoted, but that’s because in most(if not all) Islamic societies dissent is not tolerated. A lot of them have become Atheists because of the excesses of Islam.

The world would be better off without them. In fact a lot of Christians would be still alive if not for Islam and a lot of countries(middle east and north africa) would be christian if not for islam.

These are very harsh and mostly inaccurate words, JSAD. You cannot possibly mean that the world would be better off without one and half BILLION people. Muslims have made enormous contributions to history and our understanding of faith, tradition, and praxis.

“A lot of them have become Atheists because of the excesses of Islam.” Ummm, people who live in glass houses, and all that. I know too many atheists who have suffered from the ‘excesses’ of the Roman Catholic church. Your own tradition is not all that well received by others world wide.

 

[frangiuliano115]

Did I say I love islamic nations? NO.

I said I LOVE how Islamic governments are faithful to their people’s religion and spiritual traditions.

Get it right before you post, guys.

So, I would like it if our governments respected the religious and spiritual traditions of US. Like in the Middle Ages.

Are you talkin’ ta me?

Here’s what you said:

I am talking about moderate Islam, NOT the liberal Islam of the US, nor the terrorists of ISIS, rather the normal moderates in the Middle East. They will drive heresy out of their country.
I LOVE how most governments of Islamic nations are actually Islamic governments, how the government is committed to safeguarding the Islamic faith.

God forbid you should be talking about the moderate, or liberal islam. You mean those moderate, normal ones in the Middle East. Oh.

You love how they drive out heresy. And how do they do that?
You love how they are commited to safeguarding the faith. And how do they do that?

Answer the questions, Ialsop. Then think again.

In Saudi Arabia there’s a teenager on trial under penalty of death for blaspheming. I think you’re used to freedom of speech. Other things I don’t even want to think about.

Friends of mine lived in Saudi Arabia (for work) for a couple of years. Much discrimination. No beer drninking. No demanding a christian church be built or that a crucifix be placed in a public bldg. Let’s just say they were really happy to be back home - even with all our problems.

I doubt you’ll get much sympathy on this thread.

Fran

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

**Again…
Please remain within forum posting rules on inter-religious dialogue. **

 

[benjohnson]

Perhaps what you admire about Islam is already present in Catholicism?

^this!!

Just about any practice or valid religious thought you can find in any other religion exists in entirely within the broader Christian experience.

For myself I found an admiration for the Jewish diligence of raising children with good characters traits (midos) - it didn’t take long to find a Christian analogue that was even more comprehensive.