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BrooklynBoy200
Guest
Is it a sin to swear when your not taking the Lord’s name in vain? What about saying stuff like “what the hell are you talking about”,etc.?
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Della
Guest
It’s considered vulgarity, not swearing, so if it’s a sin it’s a venial one. But vulgarity is not the kind of language a Christian ought to be using in any case. 
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Steve_O_Brien
Guest
Other Catholics may disagree with me on this, but here’s what I think: as long as the divine names aren’t used irreverently, the issue of locker room or barracks language is ***not ***a moral issue at all, but merely a question of personality and context.
In other words, if a guy wants to talk like a lot of other guys, and if he does so in a reasonably acceptable setting (I just gave two examples in the paragraph above), then to speak of “sin” in reference to vocabulary patterns is just out of place. The Ten Commandments are demanding enough. We shouldn’t impose an unnecessary eleventh commandment: “It’s a sin to use words that millions of people use daily.”
Obviously, what you may say at the gym after having dropped a dumbbell on your foot may well be something that you should ***not ***say in front of your mother at the dinner table!
Common sense has to be a guide.It’s O.K. to talk like other dudes–words are just words. Just don’t behave like them in other ways–if we’re talking about conduct that breaks the moral law.
St. Ignatius Loyola had been a soldier. I don’t know how he talked before or after he became a saint. Still, if he talked like many soldiers, even after his conversion, it wouldn’t bother me.
Keep and spread the Faith.
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Della
Guest
I’m afraid it isn’t just some Catholics’ sensibilities but Jesus’ own words we have to heed:Other Catholics may disagree with me on this, but here’s what I think: as long as the divine names aren’t used irreverently, the issue of locker room or barracks language is ***not ***a moral issue at all, but merely a question of personality and context.
In other words, if a guy wants to talk like a lot of other guys, and if he does so in a reasonably acceptable setting (I just gave two examples in the paragraph above), then to speak of “sin” in reference to vocabulary patterns is just out of place. The Ten Commandments are demanding enough. We shouldn’t impose an unnecessary eleventh commandment: “It’s a sin to use words that millions of people use daily.”
Obviously, what you may say at the gym after having dropped a dumbbell on your foot may well be something that you should ***not ***say in front of your mother at the dinner table!
It’s O.K. to talk like other dudes–words are just words. Just don’t behave like them in other ways–if we’re talking about conduct that breaks the moral law.
St. Ignatius Loyola had been a soldier. I don’t know how he talked before or after he became a saint. Still, if he talked like many soldiers, even after his conversion, it wouldn’t bother me.
Keep and spread the Faith.
Matthew 12:36 “I tell you, on the day of judgment men will render account for every careless word they utter.”
And Revelation 21:27 “But nothing unclean shall enter [the holy city Jersusalem],” speaking of the city of God.
Crude language is not for the Christian to cultivate, but rather what is pure, and helpful to salvation.
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Steve_O_Brien
Guest
I respectfully disagree with Della. I believe that women and men have somewhat different perspectives on this matter, even among serious Catholics.
Of course, a lady’s sensibilities should be honored in reference to the kind of language that is used in her presence. When I express my opinion on the ethical evaluation of vulgar words, I’m thinking primarily of guys-only situations.
The "carelessness"and “impurity” of which Scripture speaks refer to sinful actions, not to one’s choice of vocabulary. (Language that is used in connection with a sin of lust, e.g., to facilitate a seduction, is a different matter entirely, and it’s not under discussion. Using the name of Jesus irreverently is also a separate issue.)
It’s my view that some well-meaning Catholics and other Christians unintentionally do some harm, especially among young men, by conveying the false message that the use of four-letter words is a moral issue. It simply isn’t, and the Church has never said that it is.
A guy in the Armed Forces, for instance, could talk like the other guys in his unit, and yet be a committed Catholic in the state of sanctifying grace. There’s just no conflict. If he were attending Mass every Sunday and staying faithful to his wife (or, if single, practicing the virtue of unmarried chastity), and if he were reprimanded by his confessor merely for including four-letter words words in his speech patterns, that confessor would be wrong.
In what document has the Church ever taught that vulgar language is a moral issue?
We’ll have to agree to disagree on this question.
Keep and spread the Faith.
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McKevin
Guest
I think this one story is good enough evidence that cursing and swearing identifies you as someone who doesn’t follow Christ.
(Notice that Peter “began to curse and swear” in his attempt to prove to the bystanders that he was not a follower of Christ)
Matthew 26:73-75
A little later the bystanders came over and said to Peter, “Surely you too are one of them; even your speech gives you away.”
At that he began to curse and to swear, “I do not know the man.” And immediately a cock crowed.
Then Peter remembered the word that Jesus had spoken: “Before the cock crows you will deny me three times.” He went out and began to weep bitterly.
(Notice that Peter “began to curse and swear” in his attempt to prove to the bystanders that he was not a follower of Christ)
Matthew 26:73-75
A little later the bystanders came over and said to Peter, “Surely you too are one of them; even your speech gives you away.”
At that he began to curse and to swear, “I do not know the man.” And immediately a cock crowed.
Then Peter remembered the word that Jesus had spoken: “Before the cock crows you will deny me three times.” He went out and began to weep bitterly.
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Exalt
Guest
For me, it’s a matter of who you’re around. I wouldn’t drop the F-bomb around my parents, but when I’m with my friends or watching a football game or something, I have no problem with using the language appropriate to the setting.
I think “foul” language runs into problems when people hide behind it instead of addressing the real issues. I think it becomes problematic when people use it in an assualting way: i.e., “you’re a ****ing lunatic.”
But yeah, I don’t see anything wrong with it objectively. It seems to be a social taboo sort of thing. I’m reminded of Paul when he speaks of behaving in such a way as to not cause your neighbor to stumble. If your “foul” language upsets someone, don’t use it. If it doesn’t, then I don’t see a problem with it at all.
I think “foul” language runs into problems when people hide behind it instead of addressing the real issues. I think it becomes problematic when people use it in an assualting way: i.e., “you’re a ****ing lunatic.”
But yeah, I don’t see anything wrong with it objectively. It seems to be a social taboo sort of thing. I’m reminded of Paul when he speaks of behaving in such a way as to not cause your neighbor to stumble. If your “foul” language upsets someone, don’t use it. If it doesn’t, then I don’t see a problem with it at all.
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Image_of_God
Guest
:tsktsk: Bad language is wrong in all cases. It is filthy and UnChristian. We should always try to act like Jesus. And I’m sure “cussing” is something Jesus would have disapproved up.
Even Paul disapproved of it:
Col. 3:8
But now you must get rid of all such things— anger, wrath, malice, slander and filthy language from your mouth.
Bad words are something that just cannot fit in a baptized person’s life. We are called to get rid of the old self, and yes, bad words are of the flesh and need to be thrown out of our lives as Catholic Christians [and all Christians in general].
I believe that cursing is a venial sin, which can actual lead people to mortal sin without knowing it.
By the way, if anyone is having difficulty on things like this should ask themselves this question in any moral issue such as this. What would you do Our Lord came into your house?
Would you use foul language?
Even Paul disapproved of it:
Col. 3:8
But now you must get rid of all such things— anger, wrath, malice, slander and filthy language from your mouth.
Bad words are something that just cannot fit in a baptized person’s life. We are called to get rid of the old self, and yes, bad words are of the flesh and need to be thrown out of our lives as Catholic Christians [and all Christians in general].
I believe that cursing is a venial sin, which can actual lead people to mortal sin without knowing it.
By the way, if anyone is having difficulty on things like this should ask themselves this question in any moral issue such as this. What would you do Our Lord came into your house?
Would you use foul language?
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Texas_Roofer
Guest
My understanding is swearing is commonly misunderstood. As the commandment is against implying the authority to damn, or know when a damned state is reached. So to say one is headed to Haiti or even he’ll get his on judgment day would be to swear. However to say a four letter word in another context may not be to swear. The real key is to understand wishing bad on another can only land in 2 categories which are mortal and venial sin
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Steve_O_Brien
Guest
I say this with great respect for those who get all bent out of shape by vulgar language in any possible context, including a guys-only situation: Exalt is absolutely correct.
Keep and spread the Faith.
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davidv
Guest
Using vulgar language is neither keeping or spreading the Faith.
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McKevin
Guest
True. I really don’t understand why anyone would behave differently when in the locker room or in the barracks! I’ve spent plenty of time in both the locker room and barracks (Air Force) and can tell you that there are many men in both environments who don’t lower their standards because of the crowd or acitivity that we’re associated in.
Here’s a great document from Father Altier at CatholicParents.com, it is an “Examination of Conscience” and identifies inappropriate language as a “venial sin or imperfection”:
catholicparents.org/oxcart/Examination%20of%20Conscience.pdf
Peace & Happy Thanksgiving, especially to Mr. O’Brien and Exalt, although I don’t agree with you on this, I can find no problem whatsoever in fellowship with you as fellow believers in Christ
Believe you me, there are things on this list that I struggle with too. Not one of us is perfect, but thank God the sacrifice is!
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Steve_O_Brien
Guest
True. I really don’t understand why anyone would behave differently when in the locker room or in the barracks! I’ve spent plenty of time in both the locker room and barracks (Air Force) and can tell you that there are many men in both environments who don’t lower their standards because of the crowd or acitivity that we’re associated in.
Here’s a great document from Father Altier at CatholicParents.com, it is an “Examination of Conscience” and identifies inappropriate language as a “venial sin or imperfection”:
catholicparents.org/oxcart/Examination%20of%20Conscience.pdf
Peace & Happy Thanksgiving, especially to Mr. O’Brien and Exalt, although I don’t agree with you on this, I can find no problem whatsoever in fellowship with you as fellow believers in Christ
Believe you me, there are things on this list that I struggle with too. Not one of us is perfect, but thank God the sacrifice is!
Kevin, even your authority may agree with Exalt and me, for Father Altier says that vulgar language is either a venial sin OR an imperfection. In other words, he’s not sure that the use of four-letter words is a sin at all, since an imperfection is not a sin.
I don’t agree, however, that vulgar vocabulary is even an imperfection. As I’ve said previously, the use of such words is merely an issue of the speaker’s personality and the situation, not an issue of morality.
I hope that everyone on this thread had a wonderful Thanksgiving.
Keep and spread the Faith.
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McKevin
Guest
Mr. O’Brien,
If you don’t think that vulgar vocabulary is even an imperfection then Father Altier does not agree with you!
I e-mailed my parish priest in regards to cursing and foul language and he said "I personally think such language is rather vulgar and the sign of a vulgar person."
How can you justify your stance in-light of this paragraph from the Cathechism?
1694
Incorporated into Christ by Baptism, Christians are “dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus” and so participate in the life of the Risen Lord. Following Christ and united with him, Christians can strive to be “imitators of God as beloved children, and walk in love” by conforming their thoughts, words and actions to the “mind . . . which is yours in Christ Jesus,” and by following his example.
I beleive that vulgar language certainly isn’t the mind which is mine in Christ Jesus.
The question one must ask themself is this: “Are the thoughts behind 4-letter words and vulgarity and the actions associated with those words conformed to the mind which is mine in Christ Jesus?”
Peace,
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Steve_O_Brien
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McKevin
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Mr. O’Biren,
We do disagree. First, in fairness, I’ll answer your question. In theory, the biker could be a committed Catholic. Cussing is no worse than any of the other venial sins or imperfections that we all struggle with.
I believe that your argument is that the foul words are a result of culture and situation? Guys being guys, or being raised in an environment where the cussing is commonplace?
However, I will stand on the Word of God! Do you agree that the Cathechism compliments the Bible, not vice versa?
Ephesians Chapter 4:
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No foul language should come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for needed edification, that it may impart grace to those who hear.
Ephesians Chapter 5:
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So be imitators of God, as beloved children,
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and live in love, as Christ loved us and handed himself over for us as a sacrificial offering to God for a fragrant aroma.
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Immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be mentioned among you, as is fitting among holy ones,
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no obscenity or silly or suggestive talk, which is out of place, but instead, thanksgiving.
1st Timothy Chapter 4:
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Let no one have contempt for your youth, but set an example for those who believe, in speech, conduct, love, faith, and purity.
2nd Timothy Chapter 2:
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Avoid profane, idle talk, for such people will become more and more godless,
James 1:
26
If anyone thinks he is religious and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, his religion is vain.
I hope these scriptures find you.
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Steve_O_Brien
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JButky
Guest
I just don’t know how you could say that it is allright. If one is standing before our Lord, would one use such language? We are called to be imitators of Christ. Christ would never use such vulgarities because it is a human failing caused by concupiscense. As such, it is not moral to act contrary to Christ. Justifying it because you are with “the guys” is situational morality.
The use of the tongue and your control over it is numerous in the Psalms. If one cannot practice self control in little matters, one is most likely asking to sin more grieviously in other matters.
Yes I disagree, because there is no legitimate justification for vulgarity.
Joe B
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Steve_O_Brien
Guest
Right now I feel like using vulgar language about the Devil, who has once again slipped a typo into one of my posts.
Here’s what I meant to write in post #17:***"Still, I’d like to point out that the 1986 NAB uses a misleading translation of the Greek word αἰσχρότης **in *Eph *5:4. This word should *not be translated as ‘obscenity,’ for it refers to obscene conduct rather than obscene language, as the context makes clear." **
Why would the Devil want to make a mess of one of my anti-rigorist posts on vulgar language? Because he loves, as a matter of general principle, to confuse Catholics about matters of faith and morals. He would also love to divert our attention from real sins to pseudosins just to make us waste our time and efforts.
It is interesting to note the following: when Jesus lists those things which, coming out of the heart, cause it to become defiled, he does not mention the mere use of certain socially taboo words. Instead, he condemns “evil thoughts, unchastity, theft, murder, adultery, greed, malice, deceit, licentiousness, envy, blasphemy, arrogance, folly” (Mk 7:27).
Another point: there is a legitimate “situationalism” in Catholic ethics, as every solid Catholic should be aware. Some prohibitions concern actions that are intrinsically and universally evil. Other prohibitions, however, may not apply to every situation.
For example, one may never commit the sins of murder (including abortion), adultery, fornication, or contraception under any circumstances. Nonetheless, even though one should not upset one’s mother by using vulgarities in her presence, using the same language while playing cards or watching football with the guys is another matter entirely. In that context, if no one is offended or made uncomfortable, there is simply no sin, for the use of those words under those circumstances doesn’t rise to the level of an ethical issue.
The American bishops exemplify the legitimacy of this kind of “situation ethics” when their film reviewing service classifies certain films as suitable for adults only.
Keep and spread the Faith.
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JButky
Guest
I think you’ve missed my point completely. How would you answer the question… which I repeat:
If one is standing before our Lord, would one use such language?
This is not confusing…Avoiding sin (however small it may be) is never a waste of our time and efforts.
To which I replied with this comment:
If one cannot practice self control in little matters, one is most likely asking to sin more grievously in other matters.
Here then are the subsequent questions:
Where does vulgarity come from? Is it not a direct response interconnected to the litany you provided? How do you separate them out to cease them from being immoral?
Vulgarity is the result of most of the stuff on the list that you say Jesus condemns. It’s therefore completely illogical to have reached the conclusion that you have managed.
Your explanation is rather odd to me…
Joe B
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