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Fan_of_Trent
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His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI is a master theologian. He can sort the wheat from the chaff in anything. The average Catholic may not be able to.
Is it Catholic Teaching That All Will Eventually Be Saved From Hell?
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Fan_of_Trent
Guest
IMHO entertaining any notion of a universalist theology is incredibly dangerous. Many people today, including many Catholics, do not believe in the reality of hell. Thus sin almost ceases to exist in their minds. The idea that “if you’re a ‘good’ person that’s all that matters and God will save you” is common. It begs the question of what the definition of “good” is and who decides. It rejects absolute objective truth and that is the root of many evils and problems.Certainly no one will be saved from hell, sister Truelight
Hell is eternal, so no one can be saved from hell if they are in that state after their particular judgement. We do not know and cannot judge the salvation of any human soul nor do we know if any particular being is in hell (with the exception of the fallen angels and Satan).
God has a universal will to save all people but he has no necessity of saving everyone, being bound by no created thing. In addition, he respects our freewill and volition to freely choose hell.
Nevertheless, I believe that God’s mercy is equal to his justice and have the hope that, ultimately, “God will be all in all” and that he will see into the very deepest heart of all people, to their substance, and thereby grant salvation to all - since he knows men better than they know themselves.
Human beings judge by what they can see, we cannot really enter deep into the mind of people, nor can we discern the secret movements of their heart.
What is impossible to human understanding, is not impossible to God. In his plan of salvation he may work a “great deed” that will restore all things to himself.
I do not believe that universal salvation is, can be or ever should be taught doctrinally since it would inevitably undermine the very real possibility of rejecting God’s grace and consigning oneself to hell.
However, I personally have hope - and to a certain extent “the belief” but not the certainity - that all human beings will be reconciled to God and not suffer the pain of hell.
I understand why my difficulty in expressing this belief could lead others to think that I am denying eternal hell, which I am not.
Julian of Norwich herself admitted that she failed to fully understand her “lord’s meaning” ie how hell is a true reality and eternal and yet all “shall be well”.
God’s mercy is beyond our comprehension. He knows the deepest secrets of all hearts, can discern interior ignorances, barriers and blockages to truth not even apparent to oneself; and can discern hidden implicit depths of faith or contrition that may not be apparent even to the individual.
I am hopeful that no one will ultimately suffer eternal hell because God will work a “great deed” from all eternity, outside time to restore all things, and judge humanity by their substance or essential being (ie all will go through purification/purgatory).
I am not certain of this since I believe in the very real possibility of sundering oneself eternally from the grace of God, and I apologize for the ambiguity of my language.
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Nita
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I have not read Julian of Norwich. Could you give her specific words that say no one will spend eternity in hell.Regarding "all ‘shall be well’ " - I certainly don’t see that as meaning hell will be eternal but that it will be empty of created beings. I’m not questioning that she gave that interpretation to Our Lord’s words - but rather, that she may have given a wrong interpretation to them. So, I’m wondering if there are any other more specific words that she gives as direct quotes from Our Lord on this topic.
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Vouthon
Guest
Amen
but as I have tried to explain I am not certain that hell is empty, I am hopeful and to an extent believe that God will reconcile all men to himself but not to the extent of certainity. I believe, as Holy Mother Church teaches, the possibility of eternal separation from the grace of God through leading a sinful life, however I have faith in the mercy of God.My aim, ultimately, is to love God and my fellow men not for hope of reward or out of fear of punishment but rather for the sake of God Himself. God is the reason alone, an end in Himself. I pray for the salvation of all.
My understanding is not the understanding of the people described above in your post.
I agree with you as to the dangers involved in advocating universalism which is why I believe that it cannot be taught as doctrine by the Church, even though I believe (but am not certain) that God will reconcile all or most people to Himself.
I believe, somehow, that God “will be all in all”. I do not know how but nothing is impossible to him.
The truth is, it is not known to us. It is possible that human beings might reject God’s grace fully and thereby never attain to the state of the blessed. We must obey the teachings of the Church, lead as holy a life as possible and hope in the mercy of God in Christ.
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TrueLight
Guest
For any revelation that implies that no one will be in Hell, there are 20 more that actually describe hell and people suffering, including children above the age of reason. Now one can choose to accept or not accept revelations.
We should do God’s will because we love him and want to be in union with him, not because of fear of hell, but never should we stop fearing hell.
Our Creed says that Jesus will come back to judge the living and the dead.
Without God we can do nothing.
We should do God’s will because we love him and want to be in union with him, not because of fear of hell, but never should we stop fearing hell.
Our Creed says that Jesus will come back to judge the living and the dead.
It is true that he knows the heart. Do we take an honest look at our own hearts? Left to our own devices, our hearts are decidedly deceitful and wicked. We can’t hide from God, nor can we fool him as we fool others and ourselves.
Without God we can do nothing.
We do not need to be seen as “evil” by the rest of the world to not make it to heaven. Therefore we have to always be careful to remain in union with God and to do his will, lest we be separated from him forever.
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JM3
Guest
It has not.
THE CATECHISM OF TRENT: The Sacraments - The Eucharist
Explanation Of The Form Used In The Consecration Of The Wine
The additional words for you and for many, are taken, some from Matthew, some from Luke, but were joined together by the Catholic Church under the guidance of the Spirit of God. They serve to declare the fruit and advantage of His Passion. For if we look to its value, we must confess that the Redeemer shed His blood for the salvation of all; but if we look to the fruit which mankind have received from it, we shall easily find that it pertains not unto all, but to many of the human race. When therefore ('our Lord) said: For you, He meant either those who were present, or those chosen from among the Jewish people, such as were, with the exception of Judas, the disciples with whom He was speaking. When He added, And for many, He wished to be understood to mean the remainder of the elect from among the Jews or Gentiles.
With reason, therefore, were the words for all not used, as in this place the fruits of the Passion are alone spoken of, and to the elect only did His Passion bring the fruit of salvation. And this is the purport of the Apostle when he says: Christ was offered once to exhaust the sins of many; and also of the words of our Lord in John: I pray for them; I pray not for the world, but for them whom thou hast given me, because they are thine.
LUMEN GENTIUM
9…So it is that that messianic people, although it does not actually include all men, and at times may look like a small flock, is nonetheless a lasting and sure seed of unity, hope and salvation for the whole human race. Established by Christ as a communion of life, charity and truth, it is also used by Him as an instrument for the redemption of all, and is sent forth into the whole world as the light of the world and the salt of the earth.(95)
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JM3
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ccel.org/ccel/julian/revelations.xiv.i.html
Regarding "all ‘shall be well’ " - I certainly don’t see that as meaning hell will be eternal but that it will be empty of created beings. I’m not questioning that she gave that interpretation to Our Lord’s words - but rather, that she may have given a wrong interpretation to them. So, I’m wondering if there are any other more specific words that she gives as direct quotes from Our Lord on this topic.
"And for the tender love that our good Lord hath to all that shall be saved, He comforteth readily and sweetly, signifying thus: It is sooth95 that sin is cause of all this pain; but all shall be well, and all shall be well, and all manner [of] thing shall be well.
These words were said full tenderly, showing no manner of blame to me nor to any that shall be saved. Then were it a great unkindness96 to blame or wonder on God for my sin, since He blameth not me for sin.
And in these words I saw a marvellous high mystery hid in God, which mystery He shall openly make known to us in Heaven: in which knowing we shall verily see the cause why He suffered sin to come. In which sight we shall endlessly joy in our Lord God.97"
ccel.org/ccel/julian/revelations.xiv.v.html
"AND thus our good Lord answered to all the questions and doubts that I might make, saying full comfortably: I may make all thing well, I can make all thing well, I will make all thing well, and I shall make all thing well; and thou shalt see thyself that all manner of thing shall be well.
In that He saith, I may, I understand [it] for the Father; and in that He saith, I can, I understand [it] for the Son; and where He saith, I will, I understand [it] for the Holy Ghost; and where He saith, I shall, I understand [it] for the unity of the blessed Trinity: three Persons and one Truth; and where He saith, Thou shalt see thyself, I understand the oneing of all mankind that shall be saved unto the blessed Trinity. And in these five words God willeth we be enclosed in rest and in peace.
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Thus shall the Spiritual Thirst of Christ have an end. For this is the Spiritual Thirst of Christ: the love-longing that lasteth, and ever shall, till we see that sight on Doomsday. For we that shall be saved and shall be Christ’s joy and His bliss, some be yet here and some be to come, and so shall some be, unto that day. Therefore this is His thirst and love-longing, to have us altogether whole in Him, to His bliss,—as to my sight. For we be not now as fully whole in Him as we shall be then."
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triumphguy
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You mean the Balthasar who was made a cardinal because of theological prowess?
Not much chaff in Balthasar.
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Vouthon
Guest
Scholars regard that phrase “all that shall be saved” as Julian’s way of expressing her belief that all mankind will ultimately be saved. For example, she speaks in one place of “all mankind that shall be saved”. I’ll quote some scholars tommorrow to back up what I’m saying.
She herself, was greatly troubled by her revelations and could not reconcile it in her mind with damnation which she unreservedly believed in as a Catholic. Her writing contains many pages of how she reconciled her revelations with Church doctrine, through the grace of God. Its a fascinating read and I would encourage everyone to read it for themselves and come to their own conclusions.
She is a very respected mystic, as one can see not only from her being quoted by the Catechism and Pope Benedict XVI but the old Catholic Encloepedia which says of her:
She is regarded as the greatest of the English mystics.
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JM3
Guest
I believe it is a misinterpretation of “and where He saith, Thou shalt see thyself, I understand the oneing of all mankind that shall be saved unto the blessed Trinity.” Which does not say that all mankind shall be saved, But the unity of all those who shall be saved of mankind.
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Vouthon
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Possible but I’ll quote from the Showings when I have time tommorrow and the scholarly works on her text to give a different understanding (the consensus in fact is that she did believe that everyone would ultimately be saved, do you not recall the part where she struggled understanding the damnation of Jews and ‘heathens’ because her revelations showed nobody damned?)
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JM3
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I searched the text for the word ‘hell’ and did not find anyplace where she said that hell was empty.do you not recall the part where she struggled understanding the damnation of Jews and ‘heathens’ because her revelations showed nobody damned?)
Maybe I missed it?
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triumphguy
Guest
She may not have used the word.
Try “damned”
Try “damned”
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JM3
Guest
ccel.org/ccel/julian/revelations.xiv.vi.html
"And in this sight I marvelled greatly and beheld our Faith, marvelling thus: Our Faith is grounded in God’s word, and it belongeth to our Faith that we believe that God’s word shall be saved in all things; and one point of our Faith is that many creatures shall be condemned: as angels that fell out of Heaven for pride, which be now fiends; and man106 in earth that dieth out of the Faith of Holy Church: that is to say, they that be heathen men; and also man107 that hath received christendom and liveth unchristian life and so dieth out of charity: all these shall be condemned to hell without end, as Holy Church teacheth me to believe. And all this [so] standing,108 methought it was impossible that all manner of things should be well, as our Lord shewed in the same time.
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And as to this I had no other answer in Shewing of our Lord God but this: That which is impossible to thee is not impossible to me: I shall save my word in all things and I shall make all things well. Thus I was taught, by the grace of God, that I should steadfastly hold me in the Faith as I had aforehand understood, [and] therewith that I should firmly believe that all things shall be well, as our Lord shewed in the same time.
For this is the Great Deed that our Lord shall do, in which Deed He shall save His word and He shall make all well that is not well. How it shall be done there is no creature beneath Christ that knoweth it, nor shall know it till it is done; according to the understanding that I took of our Lord’s meaning in this time."
ccel.org/ccel/julian/revelations.xiv.vii.html
“AND yet in this I desired, as [far] as I durst, that I might have full sight of Hell and Purgatory. But it was not my meaning to make proof of anything that belongeth to the Faith: for I believed soothfastly that Hell and Purgatory is for the same end that Holy Church teacheth, but my meaning was that I might have seen, for learning in all things that belong to my Faith: whereby I might live the more to God’s worship and to my profit.”
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JM3
Guest
You’re welcome.
ccel.org/ccel/julian/revelations.i.i.html
CHAPTER I
The Thirteenth is that our Lord God willeth we have great regard to all the deeds that He hath done: in the great nobleness of the making of all things; and the excellency of man’s making, which is above all his works; and the precious Amends 5 that He hath made for man’s sin, turning all our blame into endless worship. 6 In which Shewing also our Lord saith: Behold and see! For by the same Might, Wisdom, and Goodness that I have done all this, by the same Might, Wisdom, and Goodness I shall make well all that is not well; and thou shalt see it. And in this He willeth that we keep us in the Faith and truth of Holy Church, not desiring to see into His secret things now, save as it belongeth to us in this life.
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paul_c
Guest
The Church is clear that there is a Hell. as is scripture. While we are not in the position to judge anyone’s eternal disposition, we do know that when asked this question directly in Luke 13, the Lord answered:
23 Someone asked him, “Lord, will only a few people be saved?” He answered them,
24 “Strive to enter through the narrow door, for many, I tell you, will attempt to enter but will not be strong enough.
Jesus’ answer to Julian that all is well might simply mean that those in Hell desire to be separated from God. After all, the Catholic Church does teach that men go to Hell of their own free will. Why would someone desire to be in Hell, you might ask? The answer may be in their priority system. Many people choose sin and depravity over holiness on a daily basis.
Oh, and by the way, Catholic Doctrines are eternal truths that can not and will not be changed.
23 Someone asked him, “Lord, will only a few people be saved?” He answered them,
24 “Strive to enter through the narrow door, for many, I tell you, will attempt to enter but will not be strong enough.
Jesus’ answer to Julian that all is well might simply mean that those in Hell desire to be separated from God. After all, the Catholic Church does teach that men go to Hell of their own free will. Why would someone desire to be in Hell, you might ask? The answer may be in their priority system. Many people choose sin and depravity over holiness on a daily basis.
Oh, and by the way, Catholic Doctrines are eternal truths that can not and will not be changed.
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Marc_Anthony
Guest
By that argument we should read no theologians.
I’ll trust the Holy Father’s judgment.
As to Hell, I pray that all men are saved. But Hell is a real possibility and people may be there. I just hope not.
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