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ForeverGrace
Guest
I guess you missed the scripture I provided. Being born into sin is a fact of life. But scripture tells us that NOTHING will separate us from God’s love. That means NOTHING. If that kind of all inclusive, all engulfing love is difficult for some people, then I don’t know what to say to them. Scripture also tells us that we have no problems that are not “common to man”. Then there is that pesky “Count it all joy” when people revile and persecute you. Shall I go on?
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ForeverGrace
Guest
You gained that from what I said? I can’t account for your understanding, but let me reassure you that I don’t think that life is always rosy. We all have problems, struggles, sadness and sometimes even despair. Yet beyond the realities of life, stands Jesus and nothing can eclipse His love. The closer we are to Christ, the less important worldly things are. The Holy Spirit is the Counselor, and we always have victory in Jesus. Of course then there is “I have come so that you might have life and have it more abundantly”. There is an abundance of grace, love. peace and contentment in Christ.
So again, let me say that whether one is Catholic or Protrestant, the words of Jesus apply equally. Misery is always optional in mere mortals.
So again, let me say that whether one is Catholic or Protrestant, the words of Jesus apply equally. Misery is always optional in mere mortals.
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ivan_2068
Guest
I do believe that in theory it’s easier to be a Protestant, the foundation of their faith is the believe that nothing we can do leads to salvation except the acceptance of Jesus (Some believe that God has chosen the elected ones before the creation of the universe, so whatever you do, if you are the chosen one, you’re safe 
), their disregard for the good deeds is amazing.
In other words, you can be a terrible person, but if you accept Jesus as your savior, you are automatically saved. IMO this is a very comfortable position that could lead to absurd contradictions, like admiring that if Hitler accepted Jesus, he could be safe, while the six million Jews he killed are doomed to hell.
It’s amazing that the Church has accepted that there can be salvation outside the Catholic Church according to Lumen Gentium “The Constitution of the Church”
5. The non-Christian may not be blamed for his ignorance of Christ and his Church; salvation is open to him also, if he seeks God sincerely and if he follows the commands of his conscience, for through this means the Holy Ghost acts upon all men; this divine action is not confined within the limited boundaries of the visible Church.
I believe this a sign of religious tolerance admitting that the search of God and the fulfillment of the commands of the conscience are enough for Non-Christians, but always placing emphasis in the acts of the man (You can’t follow the commands of the conscience without acts), so faith alone is not enough, we need good acts.
My two cents.
Iván
), their disregard for the good deeds is amazing.In other words, you can be a terrible person, but if you accept Jesus as your savior, you are automatically saved. IMO this is a very comfortable position that could lead to absurd contradictions, like admiring that if Hitler accepted Jesus, he could be safe, while the six million Jews he killed are doomed to hell.
It’s amazing that the Church has accepted that there can be salvation outside the Catholic Church according to Lumen Gentium “The Constitution of the Church”
5. The non-Christian may not be blamed for his ignorance of Christ and his Church; salvation is open to him also, if he seeks God sincerely and if he follows the commands of his conscience, for through this means the Holy Ghost acts upon all men; this divine action is not confined within the limited boundaries of the visible Church.
I believe this a sign of religious tolerance admitting that the search of God and the fulfillment of the commands of the conscience are enough for Non-Christians, but always placing emphasis in the acts of the man (You can’t follow the commands of the conscience without acts), so faith alone is not enough, we need good acts.
My two cents.
Iván
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ForeverGrace
Guest
ivan,
A disregard for good deeds? As a Reformed believer, I can assure you that you are completely, absolutely and utterly wrong.
I do accept that some Christians have the idea that they can become saved and then do as they please, but the vast majority do not. It’s not helpful to label all Protestants as having a disregard for good works, just as it is not helpful for Protestants to make unwarranted and unsubstantiated claims about Catholics.
What we do believe is that works aren’t the ticket to heaven, lest any man should boast.
People who have accepted the reality of Jesus into their lives, want to behave in a way that is pleasing to Christ. So good deeds (as you call them) are a natural response to the leading of the Holy Spirit. No one can honestly and sincerely come to Christ and then ignore the teachings of scripture. In fact, we believe that this is what James was saying in “faith without works is dead”. If salvation does not result in a desire to please God, then perhaps that person should reconsider if they were ever honestly sincere about following God in the first place.
God Bless
A disregard for good deeds? As a Reformed believer, I can assure you that you are completely, absolutely and utterly wrong.
I do accept that some Christians have the idea that they can become saved and then do as they please, but the vast majority do not. It’s not helpful to label all Protestants as having a disregard for good works, just as it is not helpful for Protestants to make unwarranted and unsubstantiated claims about Catholics.
What we do believe is that works aren’t the ticket to heaven, lest any man should boast.
People who have accepted the reality of Jesus into their lives, want to behave in a way that is pleasing to Christ. So good deeds (as you call them) are a natural response to the leading of the Holy Spirit. No one can honestly and sincerely come to Christ and then ignore the teachings of scripture. In fact, we believe that this is what James was saying in “faith without works is dead”. If salvation does not result in a desire to please God, then perhaps that person should reconsider if they were ever honestly sincere about following God in the first place.
God Bless
C
Carlan
Guest
Fair enough, forever, I hope you are visiting to learn the fullness of what we Catholics believe
Bless you, Peace, Carlan
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waxwing
Guest
Remember as a young kid the traveling ministers who would come by for the evening messages about all the sinning that was going on and the ‘rapture’ that would soon happen to take us up to heaven …TrueLight’s comments about the rapture ring true for me too, remember being this being constantly drilled into my head and worrying that everytime family wasn’t home “it” had happened and the fear and panic that I felt.
Protestantism that I spent my youth with was comprised of both side of the spectrum…fear that your following all the rules and you’d make it into heaven but on the other side their was a great deal of fellowshipping, a close knit and caring community, albeit some of their theology I’ve learned to be in error.
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ivan_2068
Guest
Hello Forever Grace:
All the Protestants I talked with, criticize the importance we give to good acts, most of them say that the good acts are a direct consequence of being chosen by God, this IMO denies the concept of free will.
Being Perú a 90% Catholic country, each and every local station has at least one or two Protestant Evangelist programs that attack Catholic Church precisely for believing our good acts will help in salvation.
For what I saw, the concept of “Sola Fide” is preeminent among most Protestants.
For example:
There are others that go further:
In other words, God has chose those who will be saved no matter what happens
I don’t deny there are excellent persons and very tolerant in some Protestant Churches, but with sorrow I see that lately Fundamentalism is growing and being a majority.
Maybe is true that small and loud groups are better noticed, but 99% of Non-Catholic Christians I talked with, go with the “Sola Fide” doctrine of justification by faith exclusively.
God bless you also
Iván
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ForeverGrace
Guest
Ivan,
Are you maybe trying to mix Protestant concepts.? It IS true that we do not believe that we can earn our salvation by doing good works. So works by themselves are not sufficient for salvation. However, we believe that good works are the natural result of a sincere relationship with God. In general, we believe that the gospel messge is ‘Jesus + Nothing’. In other words we can’t add to our salvation by performing works. Salvation is a free gift from God. A gift is not something that is earned, otherwise it becomes a condition of salvation. None of us are worthy to gain God’s merit.
I think what you have described in terms of who God chooses, is a Calvinistic belief that most of today’s Protestants don’t hold to. I do because I believe in the Doctrines of Grace and I believe scripture. Scripture does say that God foreknows who will be saved because they are predestined to salvation by His grace. Just as a matter of information, most Protestants hold to Arminan belief not Calvinistic belief. But in the big picture whether someone is an Arminian or Calvinist, they both affirm Sola Fide. This is also Biblical. Works can’t lead to salvation.
I hope this helps you. If not, I’ll try again.
God Bless
Are you maybe trying to mix Protestant concepts.? It IS true that we do not believe that we can earn our salvation by doing good works. So works by themselves are not sufficient for salvation. However, we believe that good works are the natural result of a sincere relationship with God. In general, we believe that the gospel messge is ‘Jesus + Nothing’. In other words we can’t add to our salvation by performing works. Salvation is a free gift from God. A gift is not something that is earned, otherwise it becomes a condition of salvation. None of us are worthy to gain God’s merit.
I think what you have described in terms of who God chooses, is a Calvinistic belief that most of today’s Protestants don’t hold to. I do because I believe in the Doctrines of Grace and I believe scripture. Scripture does say that God foreknows who will be saved because they are predestined to salvation by His grace. Just as a matter of information, most Protestants hold to Arminan belief not Calvinistic belief. But in the big picture whether someone is an Arminian or Calvinist, they both affirm Sola Fide. This is also Biblical. Works can’t lead to salvation.
I hope this helps you. If not, I’ll try again.
God Bless
I
ivan_2068
Guest
Exactly what I was saying my friend, I know the difference between Arminianism and Calvinism, but the point remains
For most Protestants, only those who believe in Jesus would be saved…No matter how good or bad persons are they. No matter if they didn’t have the chance to know about Jesus.
I can’t accept this, God gave us free will to choose our destiny.
In my youth, In the university, there were terrorist supporters who really believed in Jesus as their savior…Are they saved?
And I ask you as a Calvinist: If a man was elected by God…Does it matters if he believes or not or if he’s a criminal or not, when he was selected before he was born?
Iván
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jam070406
Guest
Simply believing is not enough. We have free will. We can choose to reject the grace to perform those good works by not acting. The sin of omission. That is why we pray, forgive us for what we have done and what we have failed to do.
C
Carlan
Guest
Yes Jam, and we must not fall into the trap of kidding ourselves, we are all sinners. We must examine ourselves and see to following Gods commandments, If we fail , we repent and seek forgiveness to restore our relationship with Him. As Catholics we do this through the Sacrament of Reconciliation. Christ forgives us, through our Priest who acts in His Person,(Persona Christi) See John 20, 23. Peace, Carlan
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JustaServant
Guest
Your question should be more directed at evangelicals, not Protestants in general.I’ve been both. For the first 47 years of my life, I was an active and faithful member of various evangelical Protestant churches. In 2004, my husband and I converted to Catholicism, and we’ve been active and faithful Catholics.
So which is easier?
I don’t want to post my opinion yet (mainly because I have to go to work now!). Also, I am interested in reading what others have to say.
On the surface, it seems that Protestantism is the “easier” path. No obligations, no sacraments. For many Protestants, no fear of ever losing heaven. Great music, friendly people, lots of activities for children and teenagers. Lots of activities for all ages, actually.
Catholics have obligations, including the Sunday Mass obligation. Catholics have sacraments. Catholics must avoid “mortal sin” or they will not go to heaven. Catholic music is often bearable, but seldom great. Many Catholic parishes are hard to make friends in. Often there are very limited activities for Catholics–maybe a Bible study, and maybe not. Probably not a weekly kids’ club–instead, the kids get “religious education”–no campfires or craft projects or sing-alongs in CCD! And youth groups–often they are pretty small, because all the Catholic teens are over at the Assemblies of God weekly youth meeting along with hundreds of other teens! Or the Catholic teens have stopped attending Church entirely, to the dismay of their parents.
But is Protestantism really easier? Hmmm…
I encourage anyone to think about and answer this question. Obviously converts to Catholicism have personal experience with both forms of Christianity, but I know a lot of Catholics who have knowledge of Protestant life and practices, too.
I believe it comes down to the word “worship”. In the Bible it means “to prostrate”, kneel, or even get on your face before the Creator. Once the Christian understands that, sitting in a pew staring at the ‘praise group’ or listening to the preacher just doesn’t cut it.
For me, as the magnet toward Rome was getting stronger, I was still attending occasionally a Christian Missionary Alliance church. One Sunday, they had great, uplifting, hand clapping, hand-raising music. Very emotional. Everyone was having a great time.
Except me.
I was bored to tears and it all seemed so lifeless and artificial.
What would have attracted me years before, when I was younger, had no more meaning to me. I knew then I was no longer evangelical.
Dare I say it, maturity has a lot to do with it. Liturgical worship (whether Catholic or Protestant, is worship for mature christians.
It requires something of me.
Which of course is far easier.
meltzerboy
New member
Fascinating discussion. I think Judaism is closer to Catholicism than Protestantism on this point, but probably veering more than the former in the direction of good works, if that can really be separated from faith. However, in Judaism neither is for the purpose of salvation but rather for their own intrinsic moral value. However, free will is a most important part of the faith, as is atonement for sins of omission as well as those of commission.
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ForeverGrace
Guest
For most Protestants, only those who believe in Jesus would be saved…No matter how good or bad persons are they. No matter if they didn’t have the chance to know about Jesus.
You tell me. David was a murderer, an adulterer, etc. The thief on the cross was indeed a thief. Paul persecuted Jews.
You aren’t suggesting that these people can’t be saved are you?
You tell me. David was a murderer, an adulterer, etc. The thief on the cross was indeed a thief. Paul persecuted Jews.
You aren’t suggesting that these people can’t be saved are you?
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ivan_2068
Guest
The thieve in the cross is the best example of Reconciliation, he asked God himself for forgiveness with truth repentance and Jesus gave him the absolution of his sins.
I believe King David’s repentance was also sincere:
Psalm 51
1 Have mercy on me, O God,
according to your unfailing love;
according to your great compassion
blot out my transgressions.
2 Wash away all my iniquity
and cleanse me from my sin
So…It’s easy to understand for us Catholics I believe
Iván
I
ignatius777
Guest
By virtue of the fact that we even have protestants seems to answer the questionI’ve been both. For the first 47 years of my life, I was an active and faithful member of various evangelical Protestant churches. In 2004, my husband and I converted to Catholicism, and we’ve been active and faithful Catholics.
So which is easier?
I don’t want to post my opinion yet (mainly because I have to go to work now!). Also, I am interested in reading what others have to say.
On the surface, it seems that Protestantism is the “easier” path. No obligations, no sacraments. For many Protestants, no fear of ever losing heaven. Great music, friendly people, lots of activities for children and teenagers. Lots of activities for all ages, actually.
Catholics have obligations, including the Sunday Mass obligation. Catholics have sacraments. Catholics must avoid “mortal sin” or they will not go to heaven. Catholic music is often bearable, but seldom great. Many Catholic parishes are hard to make friends in. Often there are very limited activities for Catholics–maybe a Bible study, and maybe not. Probably not a weekly kids’ club–instead, the kids get “religious education”–no campfires or craft projects or sing-alongs in CCD! And youth groups–often they are pretty small, because all the Catholic teens are over at the Assemblies of God weekly youth meeting along with hundreds of other teens! Or the Catholic teens have stopped attending Church entirely, to the dismay of their parents.
But is Protestantism really easier? Hmmm…
I encourage anyone to think about and answer this question. Obviously converts to Catholicism have personal experience with both forms of Christianity, but I know a lot of Catholics who have knowledge of Protestant life and practices, too.
C
Chesterton18
Guest
As a Protestant who’s been thinking seriously about the church and attending both Mass and a Protestant service for 3 months now, I’ll take a stab. First, I’d say that it REALLY depends on where you’re coming from. If you were, for instance, to take a person raised entirely outside of Christianity, and ask me to pick them out a church to initiate them into- assuming I knew nothing else about them- I would not pick the Catholic Church. Not if I wanted it to take. Even assuming that the Catholic Church is the One True Church- because in that case, I’d also be assuming the possibility of invincible ignorance, and that someone entirely outside of the Christian faith might well be invincibly ignorant enough to get saved “through” the Catholic Church but in, say, the Methodist Church. Not that I’d send them to the Methodist Church either. I don’t know where I’d send them.
Probably someplace like the non-denominational church I’ve attended where they’re doctrinally OK- accept the Apostles Creed, no sex before marriage (though keep a little quiet about that, huh?), the Bible’s Inspired and maybe even inerrant depending on what’s meant by that, abortion is wrong, etc- but where there are singer’s with pink hair, tattooed guitarists, and a preacher with the fire of the old-time evangelists but a message that teeters between orthodoxy and Christianity as Rebellion. This isn’t maybe the kind of church that endures (perhaps there really is only the one of those) but it’s one that does OK with one of the biggest challenges to the modern evangelist, Protestant or Catholic- getting people to think of Christianity as a viable option. There are non-denominational Protestant churches like this sprouting up everywhere and if they’re sometimes, like much of Protestantism, a kind of social club- replacing popular culture and society with their own version- they’re usually not wildly wrong on doctrine. Maybe on emphasis. But doctrinally, not a whole lot you can put your finger on. They get people in the door. And once they’re in the door, hearing a message at least closely related to the true message, I figure the Holy Spirit can work on their hearts.
That said, the person and the situation matters. Yes, I wouldn’t want to send a generic, unchurched person straight to the Catholic Church because the Catholic Church is bound to seem particularly “hard” if you’ve never been any kind of Christian, and because the Catholic Church looks rather different from the outside. I was talking to my mother about this recently. She grew up a Catholic and I was actually baptized one (though, as best as I can tell, that was the first and last time I went to mass until adulthood) but she doesn’t have any bitterness toward the Church. She’s not one of those. She just likes praise music and was taught “extra ecclesiam nulla salus” badly (and is too compassionate to be comfortable with the caricature) and so she was born again and hasn’t given the Catholic Church much thought, for good or ill, since. We were talking about Mary and the Saints interceding which seemed to me the one really big difference between orthodox Protestantism and Orthodox Catholicism- outside of the specific claims of the apostolic succession and the Church itself which are inherent to Catholicism- and she asked me if I believed they could or did, and that we needed them to intercede or whether Christ was enough.
I didn’t have an answer for her, not really, and still don’t (and yes, I understand that the conception of intercession is complicated), so I said simply, “well, if I become a Catholic I’ll have to believe that, won’t I?”. So the real question was whether or not I was going to become a Catholic. And since the question of Saints or Mary interceding had never occurred to me before- indeed Mary and the Saints had never occurred to me before- it wasn’t going to the stumbling block for me. But the point was, as a potential convert to Catholicism, it didn’t really occur to me that I could ignore doctrine of the Church and still be a coherent Catholic. I think everyone outside of the Church with even the mildest sense of history realizes that becoming a Catholic means something and that, in some sense, places obligations on you. I don’t think there are many non-Catholics who would convert to Catholicism unless they were planning on being faithful (i.e, faithful to Church Doctrine) Catholics.
I have the sense that it looks different from the inside. There are, and I’m sure you’ve met them, any number of Catholics who see no contradiction in believing that the Magisterium is true and infallible dogma, while simultaneously believing they’re free to ignore that dogma. I think it is probably slightly easier to be a Cafeteria Catholic than a Cafeteria Protestant. If only because Protestants don’t hang around the building if they don’t like the food- they go to a whole nother restaurant. Catholics, maybe because of culture, maybe because of the religious education they go through, are slightly more likely, I think, to go through the smallest of motions while remaining mentally Catholic and nominally Catholic. I don’t think there are many Protestants who do this. Again, they either go to another, laxer church, swear off church entirely, or get born again and find a stricter sect. They’re not ones for half-measures (ask the Catholic Flannery O’Connor, whose stories were filled with wild, passionate Protestants). So I guess the long and short of it is, I think it’s probably easier to become a Protestant but easier to stay a Catholic.
Probably someplace like the non-denominational church I’ve attended where they’re doctrinally OK- accept the Apostles Creed, no sex before marriage (though keep a little quiet about that, huh?), the Bible’s Inspired and maybe even inerrant depending on what’s meant by that, abortion is wrong, etc- but where there are singer’s with pink hair, tattooed guitarists, and a preacher with the fire of the old-time evangelists but a message that teeters between orthodoxy and Christianity as Rebellion. This isn’t maybe the kind of church that endures (perhaps there really is only the one of those) but it’s one that does OK with one of the biggest challenges to the modern evangelist, Protestant or Catholic- getting people to think of Christianity as a viable option. There are non-denominational Protestant churches like this sprouting up everywhere and if they’re sometimes, like much of Protestantism, a kind of social club- replacing popular culture and society with their own version- they’re usually not wildly wrong on doctrine. Maybe on emphasis. But doctrinally, not a whole lot you can put your finger on. They get people in the door. And once they’re in the door, hearing a message at least closely related to the true message, I figure the Holy Spirit can work on their hearts.
That said, the person and the situation matters. Yes, I wouldn’t want to send a generic, unchurched person straight to the Catholic Church because the Catholic Church is bound to seem particularly “hard” if you’ve never been any kind of Christian, and because the Catholic Church looks rather different from the outside. I was talking to my mother about this recently. She grew up a Catholic and I was actually baptized one (though, as best as I can tell, that was the first and last time I went to mass until adulthood) but she doesn’t have any bitterness toward the Church. She’s not one of those. She just likes praise music and was taught “extra ecclesiam nulla salus” badly (and is too compassionate to be comfortable with the caricature) and so she was born again and hasn’t given the Catholic Church much thought, for good or ill, since. We were talking about Mary and the Saints interceding which seemed to me the one really big difference between orthodox Protestantism and Orthodox Catholicism- outside of the specific claims of the apostolic succession and the Church itself which are inherent to Catholicism- and she asked me if I believed they could or did, and that we needed them to intercede or whether Christ was enough.
I didn’t have an answer for her, not really, and still don’t (and yes, I understand that the conception of intercession is complicated), so I said simply, “well, if I become a Catholic I’ll have to believe that, won’t I?”. So the real question was whether or not I was going to become a Catholic. And since the question of Saints or Mary interceding had never occurred to me before- indeed Mary and the Saints had never occurred to me before- it wasn’t going to the stumbling block for me. But the point was, as a potential convert to Catholicism, it didn’t really occur to me that I could ignore doctrine of the Church and still be a coherent Catholic. I think everyone outside of the Church with even the mildest sense of history realizes that becoming a Catholic means something and that, in some sense, places obligations on you. I don’t think there are many non-Catholics who would convert to Catholicism unless they were planning on being faithful (i.e, faithful to Church Doctrine) Catholics.
I have the sense that it looks different from the inside. There are, and I’m sure you’ve met them, any number of Catholics who see no contradiction in believing that the Magisterium is true and infallible dogma, while simultaneously believing they’re free to ignore that dogma. I think it is probably slightly easier to be a Cafeteria Catholic than a Cafeteria Protestant. If only because Protestants don’t hang around the building if they don’t like the food- they go to a whole nother restaurant. Catholics, maybe because of culture, maybe because of the religious education they go through, are slightly more likely, I think, to go through the smallest of motions while remaining mentally Catholic and nominally Catholic. I don’t think there are many Protestants who do this. Again, they either go to another, laxer church, swear off church entirely, or get born again and find a stricter sect. They’re not ones for half-measures (ask the Catholic Flannery O’Connor, whose stories were filled with wild, passionate Protestants). So I guess the long and short of it is, I think it’s probably easier to become a Protestant but easier to stay a Catholic.
C
ConsciousCoward
Guest
I’ve been a Protestant my whole life, though I’ve taken it upon myself to learn about and understand Catholicism more lately. Considering that I have no denominational pride, I’m very interested to see what church I end up attending in college now that I know what I do.
But on the point, just from simple life experience, the Catholics I see seem to be living much easier lives than devout Protestants. There are a decent number of youth at the church I attend (including myself) that have obligated themselves to far more than most people would expect. My Catholic friends do everything because they have to, which is more than a shallow Protestant can say. But these devout youth have quite a struggle because they are striving for a level of relationship that isn’t even expected of the Catholic youth.
I guess my point is this: as in most topics, you can’t generalize people. Is it harder to be Catholic? Sometimes. Is it harder to be Protestant? Sometimes. When the two groups start reading constantly and actually shaping their lives around God outside of church (something a lot of “Christians,” both Catholic and Protestant, don’t do), the two groups start to become remarkably similar.
That last reason is the primary reason the RCC is becoming an option to me. It isn’t as far out there as my parents raised me to believe, so long as the individual effort to seek God is still constant.
But on the point, just from simple life experience, the Catholics I see seem to be living much easier lives than devout Protestants. There are a decent number of youth at the church I attend (including myself) that have obligated themselves to far more than most people would expect. My Catholic friends do everything because they have to, which is more than a shallow Protestant can say. But these devout youth have quite a struggle because they are striving for a level of relationship that isn’t even expected of the Catholic youth.
I guess my point is this: as in most topics, you can’t generalize people. Is it harder to be Catholic? Sometimes. Is it harder to be Protestant? Sometimes. When the two groups start reading constantly and actually shaping their lives around God outside of church (something a lot of “Christians,” both Catholic and Protestant, don’t do), the two groups start to become remarkably similar.
That last reason is the primary reason the RCC is becoming an option to me. It isn’t as far out there as my parents raised me to believe, so long as the individual effort to seek God is still constant.
I
ignatius777
Guest
You have wonderful insights so thank you. However living life as a devout practicing catholic is VERY difficult. Catholics unfortuinately think that can randomly decide to believe and practice what they want of the catholic church and still call themselves catholic. Thats not being and living catholic. No catholic HAS to do anything. There are no catholic police making sure people follow the rules. People have to make a choice to be catholic with all of its teachings or move on to something that better fits their mindsets. People want to call themselves catholic but not live according to the its tenets. I want to call myself a professional baseball player, does that make me one? Just like being a professional baseball player is much more difficult then just proclaiming it so is being a catholic.
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