Is it easier to be Protestant or Catholic?

[kathmandu]

If you don’t follow the rules you will never have a Life!! Is this world not about rules and laws.

Is it not the same to say I don’t WANT to go the speed limit. Well okay because you will pay the price, A ticket. And if you continue to disobey you will lose your freedom to drive. And if you continue to break the law you wll be locked up in Prison.

Well in a strange way I agree with you. If you don’t follow the rules you will not have the faith that you need. Because as was said faith is given to you by a free gift of Grace.

But you must use that Grace from God or you will lose it also like you could lose your right to drive.

Jesus gave us the Sacraments to help us keep our faith and increase our faith. The more Grace that you use the more Grace that you are given. And the more that is given the more that your soul needs to be happy. When you feel you are at a place of total Grace with God in your heart you cannot imagine that feeling.

Not lotto could ever replace that security that you have with God. No drug could compare to that high. You are really what they call high on life. Because you know that noone will every hurt you or keep you down for long.

And you also learn that when you have hardships, challanges, etc that it is also a Grace from God. Like the Gospel in Church recently. The Apostle asked Lord was this man blind because of his parents sin. Jesus said no, some things are to show the power of God’s Grace.

Well you could imagine the grace of a blind man seeing for the first time. Seeing what we have seen from birth and probally forgot to thank God for. How many of you can see, hear, walk, talk, think, learn, etc. Did you ever think to thank God for that? Or did you think it was owed to you.

And as far as being Roman Catholic and not having the faith, it is not because you are not given the Grace to have that special faith, it is because you don’t want the faith of the CC. Like you yourself said you don’t want that Grace because it would require work from you to keep it. You don’t want to do the work.

Well Jesus gave you the free will to accept his grace or reject it. But remember don’t blame God because you used your free will to reject the teaching’s of his Church. But remember to thank him for the teaching’s that he revealed to you. Not many had that great Grace from him to know the truth. Many would have loved to have had that Grace that you rejected.

But I do have to wonder in my heart do you really know the Religion of the RCC. Because to know the truth as you claim you know, I could not imagine going anywhere else.

I had 12 years of catholic school with religion every day, and we were tested on it. I passed every years so I must know the religion. My father, who was a deacon, realized after the fact that the worst thing he could have ever done was send me to catholic school. Being a questioner and very observant I saw way too much. It took years before I could ever be in the same room with a nun, or even go into a Catholic church. I have gotten over that much.

Over the years when I see people who I was educated with I ask them about Roman Catholicism and why they are still in the church. One said I never questioned anything. I am just not that deep. Others have said that there are things about the church they don’t agree with, but they just ignore those things. They proudly say they are Roman Catholics to anyone who might ask. I just can’t understand any of this.

I have never been given the grace to be a Roman Catholic. As soon as I was able to leave my father’s house I did not go to church. I was never a practicing catholic as an adult. Never in any way had an inclination. It is not given to all. It is so strange. My husband will tell people that we are Roman Catholic but then he is unwilling to ever let me attend church with him on Sundays. You are all good people, but I do find you strange at times.

 

[JonNC]

=

DrSharkey;7736377]Personally, I think being a protestant is “easier”, just because you don’t really have to believe, think, say or do anything.

Really? Have you read the Book of Concord?
www.bookofconcord.org

Say the “sinner’s prayer”, maybe get baptized, but other than that, you can sleep in on Sunday this weekend, if you want to.

I wouldn’t be able to say the sinner’s prayer - I’ve never heard it.

I can say, though, that my family and I are MUCH happier as Catholics than we ever were as protesters…

I give thanks to God that you are blessed in this way.

Jon

 

[joyal]

I’ve been both. For the first 47 years of my life, I was an active and faithful member of various evangelical Protestant churches. In 2004, my husband and I converted to Catholicism, and we’ve been active and faithful Catholics.

So which is easier?

I don’t want to post my opinion yet (mainly because I have to go to work now!). Also, I am interested in reading what others have to say.

On the surface, it seems that Protestantism is the “easier” path. No obligations, no sacraments. For many Protestants, no fear of ever losing heaven. Great music, friendly people, lots of activities for children and teenagers. Lots of activities for all ages, actually.

Catholics have obligations, including the Sunday Mass obligation. Catholics have sacraments. Catholics must avoid “mortal sin” or they will not go to heaven. Catholic music is often bearable, but seldom great. Many Catholic parishes are hard to make friends in. Often there are very limited activities for Catholics–maybe a Bible study, and maybe not. Probably not a weekly kids’ club–instead, the kids get “religious education”–no campfires or craft projects or sing-alongs in CCD! And youth groups–often they are pretty small, because all the Catholic teens are over at the Assemblies of God weekly youth meeting along with hundreds of other teens! Or the Catholic teens have stopped attending Church entirely, to the dismay of their parents.

But is Protestantism really easier? Hmmm…

I encourage anyone to think about and answer this question. Obviously converts to Catholicism have personal experience with both forms of Christianity, but I know a lot of Catholics who have knowledge of Protestant life and practices, too.

OF course m a new member so other wnt c my post sooon …bt let

i dnt wnt to make a debate abt dis topic… as i read d topic i wud lik 2 tel u few things
i ama catholic… even i hav had many dbts abt bein a catholic many times… bt gid never allowed me to put them dwn…i always prayed rosary nd attended Holy mass wenever i got tim… IT DEPENDS ON THE STRONG FOUNDATION OUR PARENTS GIV 2 US…
AND I BELEVE THAT I GOT A STRONG ONE

 

[mpartyka]

While our church teaches “assurance of eternal life”, it also teaches that we are not Christians if we continue to sin. Also, we doubt whether we’ve really, REALLY been forgiven.

This is very true. The reason for it, of course, is that in Protestantism there is no way to know that one is truly in the Body of Christ because there is no visible and readily-discernable Body of Christ to which to belong. What the Apostle John spoke in 1 John 2:19 – “They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us” – is not understood by Protestants in a literal sense because in Protestantism there is no visible “us”, only a loose confederation of churches to which one might point and say, “This is the Church,” and hope one is not steering someone into something off-the-wall (because who knows what the church next door teaches)? For the Apostolic Churches, however – by this I mean Catholicism and Orthodoxy – apostolic succession provides a concrete basis for determining who is the “us” to whom one may adhere or from whom one might go out.

Confession is actually much easier than going through all this! You just go in, confess your sins, Jesus forgives you, gives you a penance, and you’re liberated!

Which is actually one of the reason Protestants look askance at confession: It’s perceived as being significantly easier to confess your sins to a priest and have him tell you you’re forgiven than having to confess one’s sins in prayer to God and search one’s soul and break one’s own heart over one’s sins. And then Catholics – some of them, anyway – go out and commit the same sins again and again, reducing confession to really nothing more than a rote ritual of reassurance that one is “paid up” on one’s religious obligations.

And the idea of mortal and venial sins is so liberating! It’s wonderful to discover that God doesn’t considering drinking Coke a Cola as serious as raping a child. I’m serious–I was taught that there is NO DIFFERENCE in God’s eyes between rape and stealing a pencil from a workplace! That is NOT an easy teaching to live with, because then even the little sins that a child commits become deadly serious!

Liberating, but deceiving, also, because it gives some Christians who only perceive themselves to be sinning venially, reason to consider themselves “good people” compared to the “bad people” who sin mortally. In biblical terms, what makes a sin venial vs. mortal is not so much the nature of the sin itself but the nature of the appropriate response to it. Is the sin something worth rebuking one’s brother for, even to the extent of bringing it before the whole Church, possibly resulting in the brother’s excommunication? Then the sin is mortal. Is the sin not so serious, such that praying that God will forgive and heal one’s brother is sufficient? Then the sin is venial.

In fact, all sin is indeed sin, and it’s that knowledge that makes one painfully aware of one’s need for salvation through Christ. If venial sin wasn’t just as much a disqualifier from Heaven as mortal sin, then why was it necessary for Christ to be perfectly sinless? Why was it not fitting enough that Mary have been free from even venial sin her whole life, as the Catholic Church teaches, if being “mortal-sinless” constitutes “good enough”? It’s really only one understands that there is no such standard besides absolute sinless perfection that one truly realizes one’s plight, because allowing any arbitrary division of sins into “bad” and “not so bad” categories to cloud the perception of one’s guilt before God is providing an excuse to believe one is…well, a “sinner” maybe, but not a sinner in that sense. (Seriously, I once told a Catholic apologist, “Each of us sins every day,” and he literally replied, “Speak for yourself.”)

 

[lily20]

I wish I would have been more thoughtful of Catholicism, because now I respect the Sacraments as being a fulfilling and sacred part of Christian life, and they are intended to keep one focused on Christ which is the most important thing, and away from the snares of sin, like multiple marriages, birth control, kids out of wedlock. (I’m terrible, I’ve had all three of these, obviously I wasn’t listening!) These things can be often overlooked in other Christian religions (or, just taken less seriously), and it veers much farther away if you get into “buddhist” Christianity, which unfortunately, I’ve also been suckered into by being with other artist types “searching.”

So I’d say start a bible study in a Catholic Church or get on the committee team, volunteer at Christian organizations (pro-life, young mothers shelters, grief support, etc) these things are very enriching and they help spread the gospel and you don’t have to be affiliated with a particular Christian religion. Also it helps spread Catholicism not just Christianity. Read about influential Catholics: the saints, Mother Teresa, she didn’t sit around.

“If you don’t stand for something, you’ll fall for anything” certainly happens in religion. I wouldn’t worry so much about small discrepancies, because Jesus never did when he came to change the world (talked to cannanite woman/healed on sabbath/etc etc).

Peace in Christ!

~Lily

 

[Bev17243]

if i wanted to stay a Protestant, i would have no worries in my life. Since the church that i attended before believes “once saved, always saved” so i could commit the worse sin and be just fine and dandy. Go to church once on Sunday, listen to the weak sermon in the conference room setting(because that’s what my church looked like), sing along with rock band, receive communion once every few month with grape juice and don’t even eat/drink it. I can assure everyone that if i stayed there, my life would have been easy!
Lord has been leading me toward RC and trust me, its a very hard path

 

[MrPDGee]

if i wanted to stay a Protestant, i would have no worries in my life. Since the church that i attended before believes “once saved, always saved” so i could commit the worse sin and be just fine and dandy. Go to church once on Sunday, listen to the weak sermon in the conference room setting(because that’s what my church looked like), sing along with rock band, receive communion once every few month with grape juice and don’t even eat/drink it. I can assure everyone that if i stayed there, my life would have been easy!
Lord has been leading me toward RC and trust me, its a very hard path

Whatever “Protestant church” you went to, they were not walking the walk of Christians, disciples of the Lord Jesus Christ, and could have used some reproof and correction such as Paul gave in the letter to the Romans. Specifically, Chapter 6 of Romans clearly speaks to those who distort the gift of salvation into a free ticket to “commit the worse sin and be just fine and dandy” (as you quite succinctly stated it). By no means is that to ever be the way a Christian considers salvation, nor his life as a Christian. In the first epistle of John we are told that since God is light, if we claim fellowship with Him but walk in darkness, then we are liars.

Since the Lord has granted you discernment that those of that “Protestant church” are not walking in the light, why not act on it and show them clearly in and from God’s own Word what God expects them to be? Could be a great opportunity to apply 2 Tim 3:15-17 [And because from thy infancy thou hast known the holy scriptures, which can instruct thee to salvation, by the faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture, inspired of God, is profitable to teach, to reprove, to correct, to instruct in justice, That the man of God may be perfect, furnished to every good work.] Time for some teaching and reproving, my friend. They’ll thank you on resurrection day!

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[SIGN]Jude 1:22-23[/SIGN]

 

[MrPDGee]

This is very true. The reason for it, of course, is that in Protestantism there is no way to know that one is truly in the Body of Christ because there is no visible and readily-discernable Body of Christ to which to belong.

God did not leave anyone to wonder whether they are in the Body of Christ or not.

Jesus gave clear instruction as to how we and everyone else can know we are his disciples.

God also inspired the writers of the Epistles to make it abundantly clear how we can know.

Read 1 John, which was specifically written to believers so they could know they have eternal life (which is the definition of being “in the body of Christ”). In there also you will find clear instruction on how to know if we are His, by keeping His commandments

There’s more, much more, in the New Testament which clearly shows how to know you are part of the body of Christ, or not.

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[SIGN]Rom 12[/SIGN]

 

[MrPDGee]

Pardon my method of posting. Normally, I do post the entire passages instead of just the links. I thought I’d try keeping the message shorter by letting the reader follow the links - which also lends to reading them in context so they will not be misconstrued. But I’ll be happy to post the passages (or at least the reference, where that is more appropriate) as well as have them be a link, for the purpose of reading in context.

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[SIGN]Psalm 126:1[/SIGN]

 

[JohnMPhilomena]

Pardon my method of posting. Normally, I do post the entire passages instead of just the links. I thought I’d try keeping the message shorter by letting the reader follow the links - which also lends to reading them in context so they will not be misconstrued. But I’ll be happy to post the passages (or at least the reference, where that is more appropriate) as well as have them be a link, for the purpose of reading in context.

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[SIGN]Psalm 126:1[/SIGN]

I liked the links. Thanks.

 

[guanophore]

IMO, I see Protestants as…

It is good that you are brining your prejudices and ignorance to CAF, jwakja, so that you can benefit from the opportunity to become educated and enlighted. This is what cure bigotry.

jpeople who don’t seek out the truth that Jesus has revealed in the one true Catholic Church,

Can you think of any reason why any of them would? Most of them care very littel about the Catholic Church, and have been misinformed about her doctrines and practices. They are happy in their ecclesial communities and way of life, and find the spritiual resources they have as sufficient. Most of them believe that what Jesus has revealed about HImself is contained in the Scriptures, so there is no need to look elsewhere.

their own thoughts and actions away from what Christ intended,

How can they be away from what Christ inteded when they are following the Bible?

They believe what the Bible says- which is that the Holy Spirit will guide them into all truth. They have receieved Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior so they are filled with the Holy Spirit, who guides each of ther steps.

twist the Bible to their own beliefs and not Christ’s.

From their point of view, it is Catholics who do not read and obey the Scriptures. Catholics who added all the “extras” that are not seen in Scripture.

They may be good but are astray from admitting that the Catholic Church as the on true faith

Well, of course they are. From their point of view, the CAtholic Church went off the rails when the Bible was made and they started disobeying what is written in it.

because it is VERY difficult to follow in Christs steps here on earth as a catholic or the way God intended .

By and large, I think you will probably find more spirit filled, joyful Protestants than you will Catholics, committed to obeying the Lord, and walking in His ways for them.

The lazy way is to declare that you are “born again” and therefore do what you want and desire here on earth and not what Christ taught and asks us to do.

Indeed, there are those who believe such things, but it is no worse than cafeteria Catholics who think they can pick and choose which Teachings of the Church they want to follow, and take communion (if they even go to Mass) in a state of mortal sin.

I see their faith as shallow and baseless.

This attitude probably says a lot more about you than it does anyone else.

It may be that you have had only very limited experiences of Protestants, and thus have developed you opinions based upon a small sampling.

Living a Catholic life as a true Christian is different than declaring yourself a Christian. You may talk the talk but can you walk the walk?

Living as a Christian is much more than just declaring yourself, whether you are Catholic or Protestant. I think if you are willing to look first at the problems among Catholics, you will find that most American Catholics have a shallow and baseless faith. If this were not the case, our country would not be moving in the direction we are.

 

[MrPDGee]

Living as a Christian is much more than just declaring yourself, whether you are Catholic or Protestant.

Living as a Christian is MUCH more than just declaring yourself.

• We are called to then walk worthy of the calling, with humility, patience, love, maintaining the unity of the Spirit Eph 4:1-6]
• We are admonished to abstain from every form of evil/sin 1 Thes 5:22, 1 Pet 2:11]
• We are called to seek the things above with Christ, and count ourselves dead to the lusts of the flesh and the resultant sin Col 3:1-9]
• We are warned that if we claim salvation through Christ, then willingly continue in sin, (and thereby showing we don’t give a whit about Christ’s sacrifice) there’s no other sacrifice that can save us Heb 10:26-27]

Through faith in the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ, we are justified by God and reconciled to Him. We are changed. We are to therefore put off the old (the man/nature/life of sin) and put on the new (the renewed in God).

As the Holy Spirit inspired Paul to write to the Colossians:
[Col 3:9-17]

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[SIGN]Eph 2:8-10[/SIGN]

 

[mpartyka]

Living as a Christian is MUCH more than just declaring yourself.

That’s true, but what is the bottom-line minimum that one needs besides that declaration before one can call oneself a Christian? To say that behavior is also a requirement is to put a continual burden of evidence on all believers, day by day, such that depending on how sinful they are, they might never truly “know” that they are saved. The Apostle John in 1 John 2:19 established a bare minimum of membership in the church as one, though not the only, platform that a one could stand upon and know that one is counted among the saved. But in addition to that, there are the behavioral elements that John described: love of God, keeping God’s commandments, love for the brethren, etc. So both membership and behavior are required before one can truly count oneself among the saved. But the nice thing about membership is that once membership has been established, it never needs to be reestablished – it’s just the behavior that needs to be maintained. If you are a Christian (i.e., by membership), and you are a good Christian (i.e., by behavior), then you have no reason not to count yourself as saved. But if you are not a Christian, either by membership or by behavior, then you have no reason to count yourself among the saved. Both are required. Or else what did John mean when he said, “They went out from us and thus confirmed they were not of us”? And what did Jesus mean when he said, “Not everyone who says, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven”? And in the days when these things were spoken, how many churches were there? Just one.

See, if you read the writings of the early Christians, you will never find the concept of “once saved, always saved.” Yet at the same time you never find the early Christians wondering whether or not they were in fact Christians, either. This is because being a Christian meant being in the Church, but being in the Church was never by itself considered all that was necessary and sufficient for salvation – if a minimum standard of behavior wasn’t present as well, then you might be just as damned as any heathen, despite your formal status as a Christian. But Protestants, who have no visible Church in which they can claim membership, cannot even rest in their membership but rather subject themselves to constant, unrelenting, torturous scrutiny to continually confirm to themselves in their own hearts whether they are among the saved – scrutiny which, combined with repentance, might actually produce persons of great character, but may also produce persons of great neuroses. In a church-centric setting, however, Christians have to worry less about what they think of themselves and more of what others, most notably the priests who are in authority over them, think of them. I recall what a priest said to me when I asked him, “How will I know if I’m going in the wrong direction?” He said, “We’ll let you know.” And coming from a Protestant background where all authority is questioned and subject to scrutiny, the idea of entrusting one’s spiritual well-being to a priest or even to a church overall is a hard thing to grasp. But if you look at the protocols Jesus laid out in Matthew 18, you’ll see that this is the way it’s supposed to work: “Tell your brother’s sin to the church, and if your brother refuses to hear even the church, let him be as an unbeliever to you. And whoever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven” (i.e., if the church kicks you out, that’s as authoritative as God Himself kicking you out).

Is there the possiblity of error in the Church? I myself think so. I think that the whole idea of infallibility – papal, magisterial, or otherwise – is overrated (especially given the scientific discoveries of the last couple hundred years). But even if the Church isn’t infallible, that doesn’t negate the purpose and function of the Church as being both a starting point for the Christian walk and a guide to make sure one’s Christian walk doesn’t go too far afield. So if you call yourself a Christian, but you do not belong to whatever visible organization you perceive to be that Church in which Christ intended His followers to grow and bloom, then you aren’t living with the uttermost sense of security that a Christian should have. And if you call yourself a Christian, and you do belong to that visible organization which you perceive to be of Christ, but your behavior is in conflict with your profession and membership, then you ought not to feel secure even having that profession and that membership. And that’s the balance that the teaching of the New Testament is supposed to strike – on one hand, membership, and on the other hand, behavior, only both/and, not either/or.

 

[rinnie]

I had 12 years of catholic school with religion every day, and we were tested on it. I passed every years so I must know the religion. My father, who was a deacon, realized after the fact that the worst thing he could have ever done was send me to catholic school. Being a questioner and very observant I saw way too much. It took years before I could ever be in the same room with a nun, or even go into a Catholic church. I have gotten over that much.

Over the years when I see people who I was educated with I ask them about Roman Catholicism and why they are still in the church. One said I never questioned anything. I am just not that deep. Others have said that there are things about the church they don’t agree with, but they just ignore those things. They proudly say they are Roman Catholics to anyone who might ask. I just can’t understand any of this.

I have never been given the grace to be a Roman Catholic. As soon as I was able to leave my father’s house I did not go to church. I was never a practicing catholic as an adult. Never in any way had an inclination. It is not given to all. It is so strange. My husband will tell people that we are Roman Catholic but then he is unwilling to ever let me attend church with him on Sundays. You are all good people, but I do find you strange at times.

Ask and you shall receive. And strange what exactly is Strange? I guess we are all strange in some way or another. But hey I have been called worse things

 

[Bev17243]

Whatever “Protestant church” you went to, they were not walking the walk of Christians, disciples of the Lord Jesus Christ, and could have used some reproof and correction such as Paul gave in the letter to the Romans. Specifically, Chapter 6 of Romans clearly speaks to those who distort the gift of salvation into a free ticket to “commit the worse sin and be just fine and dandy” (as you quite succinctly stated it). By no means is that to ever be the way a Christian considers salvation, nor his life as a Christian. In the first epistle of John we are told that since God is light, if we claim fellowship with Him but walk in darkness, then we are liars.

Since the Lord has granted you discernment that those of that “Protestant church” are not walking in the light, why not act on it and show them clearly in and from God’s own Word what God expects them to be? Could be a great opportunity to apply 2 Tim 3:15-17 [And because from thy infancy thou hast known the holy scriptures, which can instruct thee to salvation, by the faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture, inspired of God, is profitable to teach, to reprove, to correct, to instruct in justice, That the man of God may be perfect, furnished to every good work.] Time for some teaching and reproving, my friend. They’ll thank you on resurrection day!

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[SIGN]Jude 1:22-23[/SIGN]

tried “teaching and reproving”, didn’t work, noone wanted to listen and most people didn’t give a damn. I know that’s not true for all the Protestants but in the church i went to, people were playing with heresies every day and it made me sick. But i tried to talk to people, trust me, to no avail

 

[fred_conty]

But I have been angry for over 40 years. It does not go away. I can go to church for years at a time and I am still angry. Maybe I should just accept the fact that is is probably more of a mental problem.

Anger can come as a suffering from an injustice not made right. Jesus was slapped, spit upon, called names, and made fun of. He did it for you. Now its your turn to do the same for Him.

Place yourself in His presence, kiss his feet reverently, and tell Him you love Him and for His sake you will do it for Him. And then say," thank You for the previllege."

 

[guanophore]

I had 12 years of catholic school with religion every day, and we were tested on it. I passed every years so I must know the religion. My father, who was a deacon, realized after the fact that the worst thing he could have ever done was send me to catholic school. Being a questioner and very observant I saw way too much. It took years before I could ever be in the same room with a nun, or even go into a Catholic church. I have gotten over that much.

Over the years when I see people who I was educated with I ask them about Roman Catholicism and why they are still in the church. One said I never questioned anything. I am just not that deep. Others have said that there are things about the church they don’t agree with, but they just ignore those things. They proudly say they are Roman Catholics to anyone who might ask. I just can’t understand any of this.

I have never been given the grace to be a Roman Catholic. As soon as I was able to leave my father’s house I did not go to church. I was never a practicing catholic as an adult. Never in any way had an inclination. It is not given to all. It is so strange. My husband will tell people that we are Roman Catholic but then he is unwilling to ever let me attend church with him on Sundays. You are all good people, but I do find you strange at times.

Have you considered that you were wrongly taught? A person can be taught misinformation, then pass tests on it, and still not understand the Catholic faith. There was a lot of poor catechesis.

 

[fred_conty]

Mpartyka, why did you say — I myself think so. I think that the whole idea of infallibility – papal, magisterial, or otherwise – is overrated (especially given the scientific discoveries of the last couple hundred years).​

What scientific discoveries?

 

[guanophore]

That’s true, but what is the bottom-line minimum that one needs besides that declaration before one can call oneself a Christian?

I find this formulation to be very curious. When the Reformers left the One Faith, they seemed to begin distilling the faith. The goal was to strip out the 'additions" and reduce the faith to “purity”. Somehow the net effect has been to create a Reader’s Digest (abbreviated) form of the faith that focuses on “the minimum”.

Jesus commissioned the Apostles to “teach all that I have commanded”, not the “bottom line minimum”

To say that behavior is also a requirement is to put a continual burden of evidence on all believers, day by day, such that depending on how sinful they are, they might never truly "know" that they are saved.

The commandments of God are not “burdensome”. When He said we will know them by their fruit, He also knew that He would give the Holy Spirit, who would enable the faithful to walk in the light, and to demonstrate the good conduct that befits repentance.

If you are a Christian (i.e., by membership), *and* you are a good Christian (i.e., by behavior), then you have no reason not to count yourself as saved.

This passage was written to Christians:

Gal 5:19-22
9 Now the works of the flesh are plain: fornication, impurity, licentiousness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, party spirit, 21 envy, drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

See, if you read the writings of the early Christians, you will never find the concept of "once saved, always saved."  Yet at the same time you never find the early Christians wondering whether or not they were in fact Christians, either.  This is because being a Christian meant being in the Church, but being in the Church was never by itself considered all that was necessary and sufficient for salvation -- if a minimum standard of behavior wasn't present as well, then you might be just as damned as any heathen, despite your formal status as a Christian.  But Protestants, who have no visible Church in which they can claim membership, cannot even rest in their membership but rather subject themselves to constant, unrelenting, torturous scrutiny to continually confirm to themselves in their own hearts whether they are among the saved -- scrutiny which, combined with repentance, might actually produce persons of great character, but may also produce persons of great neuroses.  In a church-centric setting, however, Christians have to worry less about what they think of themselves and more of what others, most notably the priests who are in authority over them, think of them.  I recall what a priest said to me when I asked him, "How will I know if I'm going in the wrong direction?"  He said, "We'll let you know."  And coming from a Protestant background where all authority is questioned and subject to scrutiny, the idea of entrusting one's spiritual well-being to a priest or even to a church overall is a hard thing to grasp.  But if you look at the protocols Jesus laid out in Matthew 18, you'll see that this is the way it's supposed to work:  "Tell your brother's sin to the church, and if your brother refuses to hear even the church, let him be as an unbeliever to you.  And whoever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven" (i.e., if the church kicks you out, that's as authoritative as God Himself kicking you out).

Great points.

 

[guanophore]

Is there the possiblity of error in the Church?  I myself think so.  I think that the whole idea of infallibility -- papal, magisterial, or otherwise -- is overrated (especially given the scientific discoveries of the last couple hundred years).

Clearly you are not understanding the meaning of the Gift of Infallibilty. Jesus promised that the gates of Hell would not prevail against His Church. When error is taught, people begin to walk through the gates of hell. He promised the Holy Spirit would guide the Church into “all Truth”.

The Church, though, is charged with the responsibility of the things of God, not of science. It is not the jurisdiction of the Church to be concerned about “scientific discoveries”. She is to maintain and pass on the infallible Word of God. It is impossible to “overrate” God. The Church is infallible because He is her Head, and she is ensouled by the Holy Spirit. God does not “err”.

But even if the Church isn’t infallible, that doesn’t negate the purpose and function of the Church as being both a starting point for the Christian walk and a guide to make sure one’s Christian walk doesn’t go too far afield.

Think about what you are saying here. You are correct that it is the duty of the Church to make sure the flock does not stray. If she has not the power to lead them into “all Truth”, as He promised, then how can we know that we will not end up far afield?

So if you call yourself a Christian, but you do not belong to whatever visible organization you perceive to be that Church in which Christ intended His followers to grow and bloom, then you aren't living with the uttermost sense of security that a Christian should have.

And I would also add to that the fact that the Church, founded by Christ, and maintained by the Holy Spirit, is not a matter of what anyone here on earth “perceives”. It is an objective reality built by God. Our duty is to seek out that which He founded, not that which we “perceive” to be comfortable and suitable for us.

And if you call yourself a Christian, and you do belong to that visible organization which you perceive to be of Christ, but your behavior is in conflict with your profession and membership, then you ought not to feel secure even having that profession and that membership.  And that's the balance that the teaching of the New Testament is supposed to strike -- on one hand, membership, and on the other hand, behavior, only both/and, not either/or.

Excellent point.