Is it easier to post what isn't a sin?

[Debora123]

No, of course we didn’t commit sin before we were born. We inherited original sin from first man and first woman. But it is a sin nonetheless and must be removed by Baptism. It is more than merely a tendency to sin. The tendency to sin (or concupiscence) is just one of the effects of original sin. Someone (in my mind a man and woman, in your mind an ape-like creature resembling man and woman) committed the first offence against God and allowed sin to enter the world. We call them “Adam and Eve” (not necessarily their real names).

If we evolved from ape-like creatures, as you say, then are you saying there is no such thing as original sin?

See, that’s the thing though. I don’t believe we “inherited” any sin. That doesn’t make any sense. We inherit eye color, personality traits, money, etc etc, but we don’t inherit SINS. It’s not like our parents commit sins and we “inherit” them. Once again, I think the whole inheritance concept was purely symbolic.

Neither do I believe there was only one first man and one first women. According to some pretty accurate evidence, that’s not the case.

Now to answer your question, I don’t mean to pretend like I know exactly what happened, but I can hypothesize based on the theological and scientific information I’ve gathered.

I believe that at one point in the evolution of humanity, we transitioned from animals into the modern day human, and along with that transition also came God’s creation of our souls. Once we became intelligent and had souls, we were no longer “animals,” but became human beings. Like I said earlier, I don’t believe this is just a story of one man and one women, but rather of thousands of us. Once we became intelligent enough and had souls, we figured out that we had a choice in all our actions, a choice between doing good or doing evil. This makes sense to me, because animals don’t have the knowledge of good/evil, but humans do. This correlates to the story of Adam and Eve eating from the tree of knowledge. Before they ate from the tree of knowledge, they didn’t know the difference between good/evil. Just like animals don’t know the difference between good/evil, but humans do. I believe the tree of knowledge symbolizes the fact that at one point, we became actual human beings with souls and intelligence, and therefore knew the difference between good/evil, and chose evil many times, just like we all choose evil countless times in our everyday lives.

I don’t think original sin was one sin between one man and one women that we all “inherited.” I believe that original sin is the fact that all of us, as a human race with souls and intelligence, have the choice everyday between doing good or doing evil, and we will do evil sometimes because we are imperfect. THAT is what original sin means to me. It makes sense to me because Mary was the only person who didn’t have original sin, and she never sinned.

 

[Debora123]

And next time you find yourself surprised at how many “normal” acts are sinful consider this: Due to our fallen nature, you deserve to languish in hell for the rest of eternity. It’s only by God’s love and mercy that you’re saved from the fate that you (and I, and everyone) so richly deserve.

Pax,
OA

That is my main moral and philosophical objection to Catholicism and most other Christian denominations. Because the idea that a all-powerful, all-knowing, loving god would torture his own people FOREVER merely for not worshiping him defies reason or any sort of worthwhile moral code.

As you said, under this system it doesn’t really matter what a person thinks or does (or even if the person doesn’t get a chance to do much at all like a boy or girl who died as a baby), ALL humans deserve to be tortured regardless. Merely for the ‘crime’ of being human.

I don’t necessarily agree with Orleans Attny’s statement. Neither do I think that it’s the message the Church gives. That was a very harsh way of putting it, it’s not quite like that.
Angry, if you want to more accurately learn about the Catholic faith, you should look for a book written by JPII, or better yet, one that is written based on JPII’s books. His books themselves are very difficult to read, but you can read the same message on another, easier to read book based off of his words. The statements you made aren’t really what the Church teaches, despite what some people on here may say.

 

[tskrobacz]

I’m reading though many of these threads, am I’m simply gob-smacked at what the Catholic Church regards as a sin. I would never even have considered that most of the stuff were sins.

I’m probably constantly sinning and don’t even realise it.

Would it not be easier to post a list of what isn’t sinning?

Simply put to sin is to stop growing. If you continue to strive to learn, love and grow then even your sins can become transformational and lead you to God.

Let us never attribute our losses, our disappointments, our afflictions, our humiliations to the devil or to men, but to God as their real source. Your misfortunes are the work not of this or that person but of God. Adversity is meant for our spiritual welfare and carefully proportioned to our needs. There is no tribulation or temptation whose limits God has not appointed so as to serve not for our destruction but for our salvation.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

Simply put to sin is to stop growing. If you continue to strive to learn, love and grow then even your sins can become transformational and lead you to God.

Let us never attribute our losses, our disappointments, our afflictions, our humiliations to the devil or to men, but to God as their real source. Your misfortunes are the work not of this or that person but of God. Adversity is meant for our spiritual welfare and carefully proportioned to our needs. There is no tribulation or temptation whose limits God has not appointed so as to serve not for our destruction but for our salvation.

It would be more accurate to say that to stop sinning is to stop living (especially on any sort of intellectual level).

Sins like Pride (a sense of ability and accomplishment), Lust (the sex drive), and Doubt (a tendency and willingness to question things) are all necessary for vital human things like having children, thinking through problems, and motivating people.

I would not want to live with a Sinless person.
It’s hard to imagine a creature more bland.

 

[ignatius777]

It would be more accurate to say that to stop sinning is to stop living (especially on any sort of intellectual level).

Sins like Pride (a sense of ability and accomplishment), Lust (the sex drive), and Doubt (a tendency and willingness to question things) are all necessary for vital human things like having children, thinking through problems, and motivating people.

I would not want to live with a Sinless person.
It’s hard to imagine a creature more bland.

Your examples for the “sins” of Pride and Lust and Doubt are silly. To feel good about your abilities and accomplishments is not sinful. To ignore where those gifts/talents come from is a sin or to believe you are superior to others because because of your abilities or accomplishments is a sin. To desire my wife is not sinful Lust but to have the same feelings for my neighbors wife is. And again doubt is not bad its the end to which it is used is what contributes to its sinfulness.

I hope this assist you in understanding the differences between normal healthy human attributes and sin.

 

[ignatius777]

So what?
That doesn’t mean that we deserve to be tortured FOREVER.

No one deserves to be tortured forever, I think that even the victims of the great monsters of the 20th century would say that people like Stalin, Hitler, or Pol Pot had had enough punishment after they had been tortured for a few centuries.

There is no way that infinite punishment for limited crimes is just. Especially considering that fact that one of the ‘crimes’ is simply being born an imperfect/sinful human.

The only way anyone is tortured forever as you call it is to conciously and completely seperate yourself from God. We have that choice to make in our hearts minds and souls and only God and the individual know the choice that has been made. Any “punishment” we receive is self inflicted and therefore is just based on that reality. If I choose to put my hand in a mouse trap its entirely just that I experience the pain whatever and however long that is.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

The only way anyone is tortured forever as you call it is to conciously and completely seperate yourself from God. We have that choice to make in our hearts minds and souls and only God and the individual know the choice that has been made. Any “punishment” we receive is self inflicted and therefore is just based on that reality. If I choose to put my hand in a mouse trap its entirely just that I experience the pain whatever and however long that is.

Not if you didn’t know the mouse trap was there, and someone prevented you from removing your hand afterwords. Besides that is NOT Catholic doctrine.

In order to get into Heaven (and escape Hell) you have to accept Jesus into your heart. And many people died before they ever got a chance to hear about Jesus. Including virtually every human being born before him.

That is why I call such a system unjust.

 

[ignatius777]

Not if you didn’t know the mouse trap was there, and someone prevented you from removing your hand afterwords. Besides that is NOT Catholic doctrine.

In order to get into Heaven (and escape Hell) you have to accept Jesus into your heart. And many people died before they ever got a chance to hear about Jesus. Including virtually every human being born before him.

That is why I call such a system unjust.

I would respectfully submit to you that if you understood covenant theology then you would not have made the statement about not knowing of the mouse traps presence. In every covenant throughout the bible God directs us as to what is expected of us. The failure of the covenant is on our part and the stubborness of our free will which result in our disobeying God. Adam and Eve are a great example. God told them you can have everything and anything in the garden EXCEPT the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. They CLEARLY knoew the mouse trap was there and BANG!

 

[ignatius777]

Not if you didn’t know the mouse trap was there, and someone prevented you from removing your hand afterwords. Besides that is NOT Catholic doctrine.

In order to get into Heaven (and escape Hell) you have to accept Jesus into your heart. And many people died before they ever got a chance to hear about Jesus. Including virtually every human being born before him.

That is why I call such a system unjust.

God could only be called unjust if He didnt tell us whats expected of us and thats never been the case. I gave you Adam and Eve and he gave us the 10 commnadments and the final covenant, the bood and blood of christ. God is not out to decieve us. He tells us what He expects of us and tells us the consequences of disobedience but gives us the free will to do as we see fit. No one not even God wants to force us to to love and obey Him since that not true love and obedience.

 

[Debora123]

The only way anyone is tortured forever as you call it is to conciously and completely seperate yourself from God. We have that choice to make in our hearts minds and souls and only God and the individual know the choice that has been made. Any “punishment” we receive is self inflicted and therefore is just based on that reality. If I choose to put my hand in a mouse trap its entirely just that I experience the pain whatever and however long that is.

This is probably one of the most accurate things I’ve seen on CAF. Going to hell involves deliberately turning away from God (or if you don’t believe in God, it means deliberately turning away from what is good). Turning away from God means committing a mortal sin with full knowledge and consent of the will. You don’t go to hell for not being baptized or for not being a Christian or for committing a moral sin that you didn’t know was wrong. (And I learned about all this in Catholic school). Going to Hell is all about intent and deliberation. And this is why only God can say who is and is not going to hell. Because only HE knows what is in our hearts and what our intentions are.

Hell is simply a place where God is not present. People put themselves there because they make a conscious choice to turn away from Him, aka to turn away from love or what is righteous. So when they die they go to the only place that God is NOT present - Hell. The problem is, when we die we realize how much we need God and we realize that He’s the only thing that can fulfill us or make us happy. That’s why Hell is sooooo horrible, because we are away from happiness/God. (but we choose to put ourselves there)

 

[ignatius777]

This is probably one of the most accurate things I’ve seen on CAF. Going to hell involves deliberately turning away from God (or if you don’t believe in God, it means deliberately turning away from what is good). Turning away from God means committing a mortal sin with full knowledge and consent of the will. You don’t go to hell for not being baptized or for not being a Christian or for committing a moral sin that you didn’t know was wrong. (And I learned about all this in Catholic school). Going to Hell is all about intent and deliberation. And this is why only God can say who is and is not going to hell. Because only HE knows what is in our hearts and what our intentions are.

Hell is simply a place where God is not present. People put themselves there because they make a conscious choice to turn away from Him, aka to turn away from love or what is righteous. So when they die they go to the only place that God is NOT present - Hell. The problem is, when we die we realize how much we need God and we realize that He’s the only thing that can fulfill us or make us happy. That’s why Hell is sooooo horrible, because we are away from happiness/God. (but we choose to put ourselves there)

AMEN Debora. I could not have said it any better.

 

[Debora123]

Not if you didn’t know the mouse trap was there, and someone prevented you from removing your hand afterwords. Besides that is NOT Catholic doctrine.

In order to get into Heaven (and escape Hell) you have to accept Jesus into your heart. And many people died before they ever got a chance to hear about Jesus. Including virtually every human being born before him.

That is why I call such a system unjust.

As I said, turning away from God means turning away from what is good/righteous. It doesn’t simply mean believing or not believing in God. Otherwise, you’re right, it would be VERY unjust, and I would understand why you’d be atheist. But that’s not how it is.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

I would respectfully submit to you that if you understood covenant theology then you would not have made the statement about not knowing of the mouse traps presence. In every covenant throughout the bible God directs us as to what is expected of us. The failure of the covenant is on our part and the stubborness of our free will which result in our disobeying God. Adam and Eve are a great example. God told them you can have everything and anything in the garden EXCEPT the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. They CLEARLY knoew the mouse trap was there and BANG!

So what?

I wasn’t talking about Adam & Eve.

Do you have any idea how many Chinese, Hindus, Africans, and other people have never heard of Jesus? They never even had the opportunity to reject the ‘Gospel Truth.’

Yet they are all deserving of Hellfire?

Faith and Works, yet how can a reasonable God expect people to have faith in something that they have never been exposed to?

 

[broconsul]

So what?

I wasn’t talking about Adam & Eve.

Do you have any idea how many Chinese, Hindus, Africans, and other people have never heard of Jesus? They never even had the opportunity to reject the ‘Gospel Truth.’

Yet they are all deserving of Hellfire?

Faith and Works, yet how can a reasonable God expect people to have faith in something that they have never been exposed to?

God saves whom it pleases God to save. We do not say definitively who ends up where. We merely trust God to administer perfect justice.

We know what he expects of us through a number of channels. Uncontacted people have what is written on their hearts to guide them.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

God saves whom it pleases God to save. We do not say definitively who ends up where. We merely trust God to administer perfect justice.

We know what he expects of us through a number of channels. Uncontacted people have what is written on their hearts to guide them.

I thought that the whole purpose of missionary work was to expose people and to and get them to accept Jesus, because otherwise they would not be ‘saved’ and were condemned to Hellfire.

 

[Debora123]

So what?

I wasn’t talking about Adam & Eve.

Do you have any idea how many Chinese, Hindus, Africans, and other people have never heard of Jesus? They never even had the opportunity to reject the ‘Gospel Truth.’

Yet they are all deserving of Hellfire?

Faith and Works, yet how can a reasonable God expect people to have faith in something that they have never been exposed to?

I think you misunderstood Ignatius. Considering he approved of my post (see post #51), I don’t think what you’re implying above is what he’s trying to say. At least I would hope not, because you’re right, it’s pretty ridiculous and not at all what the Catholic Church has taught me in my years of study.

 

[Debora123]

I thought that the whole purpose of missionary work was to expose people and to and get them to accept Jesus, because otherwise they would not be ‘saved’ and were condemned to Hellfire.

No, not really. We don’t do it because we believe it’s going to save someone from Hell by simply believing in Jesus. We do it because God calls us to evangelize and spread his good news. God wants us to know him, and he wants us to have a relationship with him, because he loves us and wants to be close to us. So we do our best to help that happen for people who have never heard of Jesus or God. Furthermore, knowing God and being close to God can really help some people be better people. Of course, unfortunately there are people out there who are pretty messed up and do horrible things in the name of “God,” but for the most part if done right, it can be a very very positive thing. I know personally for me, knowing God and Jesus has helped me tremendously in making the right decisions in life and giving me guidance and motivation to be a better person. That’s the purpose of missionary work.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

No, not really. We don’t do it because we believe it’s going to save someone from Hell by simply believing in Jesus. We do it because God calls us to evangelize and spread his good news. God wants us to know him, and he wants us to have a relationship with him, because he loves us and wants to be close to us. So we do our best to help that happen for people who have never heard of Jesus or God. Furthermore, knowing God and being close to God can really help some people be better people. Of course, unfortunately there are people out there who are pretty messed up and do horrible things in the name of “God,” but for the most part if done right, it can be a very very positive thing. I know personally for me, knowing God and Jesus has helped me tremendously in making the right decisions in life and giving me guidance and motivation to be a better person. That’s the purpose of missionary work.

What an unexpectedly thoughtful answer.

I am frankly more used to the kind of commentary I’m getting from the pro-Fascists in the Franco thread. At least from Christians in general.

 

[Debora123]

What an unexpectedly thoughtful answer.

I am frankly more used to the kind of commentary I’m getting from the pro-Fascists in the Franco thread. At least from Christians in general.

It is true that a lot of Protestant denominations have the belief that no one is saved unless they believe that Jesus is the Messiah. And maybe that is THEIR reason for doing missionary work. But Catholicism doesn’t teach that, and it isn’t why we are called to missionary work.

 

[ignatius777]

So what?

I wasn’t talking about Adam & Eve.

Do you have any idea how many Chinese, Hindus, Africans, and other people have never heard of Jesus? They never even had the opportunity to reject the ‘Gospel Truth.’

Yet they are all deserving of Hellfire?

Faith and Works, yet how can a reasonable God expect people to have faith in something that they have never been exposed to?

I understand you werent talking about Adam and Eve but that does not discount the point their story makes in the discussion. People who have not heard the “gospel Truth” as you called it can not be held responsible for not adhereing to it now can they? What God has decided for them is His to worry about not mine. I trust God has some plan of salvation for them even if I am not aware of what it is.

AGAIN hellfire is reserved only for those who CONCIOUSLY reject whatever plan of salvation God has for them.