Is it easier to post what isn't a sin?

[Vince1022]

It’s amazing to me that anyone can look at this world in which we live and still think that people are generally good.

We’re not.

Pax,
OA

I disagree.

I think people are generally good. As God created us.

There are…what…6 billion plus people on earth? You know that the majority of them are not good?

Why do think most people are not good?

 

[Vince1022]

Not if you didn’t know the mouse trap was there, and someone prevented you from removing your hand afterwords. Besides that is NOT Catholic doctrine.

In order to get into Heaven (and escape Hell) you have to accept Jesus into your heart. And many people died before they ever got a chance to hear about Jesus. Including virtually every human being born before him.

That is why I call such a system unjust.

That idea of salvation is not what the Catholic Church teaches. I think that’s what you’re referring to…right? Yes, Christ is necessary for salvation, according to Catholic teaching, but salvation is not (according to Catholic teaching) offered only to those who “accept Jesus into your heart.” Thanks for any clarification.

 

[Lost_Sheep]

Not if you didn’t know the mouse trap was there, and someone prevented you from removing your hand afterwords. Besides that is NOT Catholic doctrine.

In order to get into Heaven (and escape Hell) you have to accept Jesus into your heart. And many people died before they ever got a chance to hear about Jesus. Including virtually every human being born before him.

That is why I call such a system unjust.

You need to think outside the box. What may or may not be unjust to you is not necessarily unjust by God’s way of thinking.

 

[BingoBoy]

You need to think outside the box. What may or may not be unjust to you is not necessarily unjust by God’s way of thinking.

No, Angry is right. It WOULD be unjust for people to go to Hell just because they never heard of Jesus. That’s not what the Church teaches. And I know God would find this unjust because that’s not the message and the example Jesus gave us, neither does it make sense for the God I’VE always learned about and known to be like that.

 

[ignatius777]

No, Angry is right. It WOULD be unjust for people to go to Hell just because they never heard of Jesus. That’s not what the Church teaches. And I know God would find this unjust because that’s not the message and the example Jesus gave us, neither does it make sense for the God I’VE always learned about and known to be like that.

Does God have a plan of salvation for those who have never heard of Him?

 

[AngryAtheist8]

You need to think outside the box. What may or may not be unjust to you is not necessarily unjust by God’s way of thinking.

I don’t care.

Any God that is so cruel and merciless does not deserve worship. Fear yes (for a god is by definition powerful) but not anything like reverence or love. Assuming that such a creature even exists (an assumption I do not make).

Murder and torture supposedly ordered by a deity is still murder and torture.

 

[ignatius777]

I don’t care.

Any God that is so cruel and merciless does not deserve worship. Fear yes (for a god is by definition powerful) but not anything like reverence or love. Assuming that such a creature even exists (an assumption I do not make).

Murder and torture supposedly ordered by a deity is still murder and torture.

Could you cite where God ordered murder and torture, please

 

[Reservoir_Dog]

Could you cite where God ordered murder and torture, please

The OT is full of righteous smite-downs as the Israelites took the holy land by the sword.

 

[Lost_Sheep]

I don’t care.

Any God that is so cruel and merciless does not deserve worship. Fear yes (for a god is by definition powerful) but not anything like reverence or love. Assuming that such a creature even exists (an assumption I do not make).

Murder and torture supposedly ordered by a deity is still murder and torture.

Why are you even here? If you don’t want to believe in God, then don’t believe in God. Have you made it your mission in life to “convert” Catholics to Atheism?

 

[ignatius777]

The OT is full of righteous smite-downs as the Israelites took the holy land by the sword.

So what is the biblical citation where God instructs someone to murder and torture someone else. Some else made this claim so I asked them to prove their assertion. Your comments here suggest you are in accord with the other poster so I will ask you for the bible passage which supports your assertion. If the OT is FULL of such events just give me a passage for one of them. Thank you very much

 

[ignatius777]

Why are you even here? If you don’t want to believe in God, then don’t believe in God. Have you made it your mission in life to “convert” Catholics to Atheism?

We need to be generous of spirit with our non believing brothers and sisters. Our being frustrated with them only supports their erroneous beliefs and serves to move them farther away from coming home.

 

[Reservoir_Dog]

So what is the biblical citation where God instructs someone to murder and torture someone else. Some else made this claim so I asked them to prove their assertion. Your comments here suggest you are in accord with the other poster so I will ask you for the bible passage which supports your assertion. If the OT is FULL of such events just give me a passage for one of them. Thank you very much

I haven’t read the other poster’s comments, so you assume at your own risk.

Jericho. Every man, woman and child put to the sword (except the turncoats); also try the tale of the five amorite kings or the fate of Hazor, same source. Not being a protestant I don’t have a Verso-matic ™, but I assume you can find the stories and others like them in the Book of Joshua.

I know the theological reasons why wholesale slaughter was necessary, but let’s not deny the facts of the matter.

 

[ignatius777]

I haven’t read the other poster’s comments, so you assume at your own risk.

Jericho. Every man, woman and child put to the sword (except the turncoats); also try the tale of the five amorite kings or the fate of Hazor, same source. Not being a protestant I don’t have a Verso-matic ™, but I assume you can find the stories and others like them in the Book of Joshua.

I know the theological reasons why wholesale slaughter was necessary, but let’s not deny the facts of the matter.

LOL I have to admit I loved that “Verso-matic” LOL that is hilarious!

Not being protestant either I also have no access to a Verso-matic (I am still laughing) so I will have to look up those stories for context. But I would quite surprised to read God ordering murder and torture but I will rummage through there and look.

The other point to consider is Jesus represents a new covenant and as christians we believe Jesus is our savior and certainly I think you and I can agree that Jesus, God made man, does not order murder and torture. Is that reasonable?

 

[Jermosh]

No it would not, ever action that we do can be a sin based on the intent of the action.

 

[Reservoir_Dog]

LOL I have to admit I loved that “Verso-matic” LOL that is hilarious!

Not being protestant either I also have no access to a Verso-matic (I am still laughing) so I will have to look up those stories for context. But I would quite surprised to read God ordering murder and torture but I will rummage through there and look.

The other point to consider is Jesus represents a new covenant and as christians we believe Jesus is our savior and certainly I think you and I can agree that Jesus, God made man, does not order murder and torture. Is that reasonable?

Yes, definitely to all points you’re making.

 

[ignatius777]

Yes, definitely to all points you’re making.

Amen

 

[FidesSpesCarita]

Original sin simply means we have the tendency to sin… and we will. The whole Adam and Eve story is symbolic.

Ummm, false. Dealt with below.

There couldn’t have been a first man and a first women. Neither does the Catholic Church say there’s absolute truth to that. There’s a lot of proof out there that the human race evolved from ape like creatures, therefore making it impossible for there to have been one first man and one first women. Also, the dates in the bible don’t line up with what research has shown. There’s no way there was only one man and one women during the dates when Adam and Eve supposedly were created.The Church has no problem believing in evolution.

The Church has no problem with the concept of evolution producing (perhaps) the physical form, but the soul (that thing which makes us Human) is created. And the evolutionary theory can be accepted only if it admits to one man and one woman as the genesis of mankind. Heck, mitochondrial DNA proves that mankind originated with one woman.

Really? That’s not what I’ve been taught, from what I understand. Original sin isn’t a specific “sin,” it’s a lot deeper than that. From what I understand, saying that original sin is some kind of “mark” we’re all born with or something is just a symbolic way of putting it. It pretty much just means that we are born imperfect and that we are all guaranteed to sin, as soon as we’re smart/old enough to do so.

False. The way a good priest explained it is like this: If your mother and father each acquired AIDS and then had a baby that baby would then have AIDS at no fault of its own (yeah yeah I know that example wouldnt be 100% but its just an example). That disease would then be the burden of that child who would pass it on to his children and so on and so forth.

I also don’t believe that just because someone isn’t baptized they’re not going to go to heaven. If this were true then why does the Church always talk about aborted babies going to heaven? And what about the indigenous? It’s not their fault if they’ve never been taught about Jesus, doesn’t mean they’re automatically going to hell just because they haven’t been baptized. What about Ghandi? He was a great person, despite not having been baptized in the Catholic Church. I’m pretty sure it’s not fair to say these people are all going to Hell just because they weren’t baptized. Neither is it what I’ve been taught in the Catholic Church.

[BIBLEDRB]John 3:5[/BIBLEDRB]

I said they were “ape like creatures,” not the same apes that exist today. There’s plenty of proof out there. There are fossils and skeletons of creatures that were somewhere in between a monkey and a human, and the older the skeletons were, the more ape like they were, while the newer ones were more human like. This is evidence that we evolved from species that didn’t start off as the human race today. We studied this and were taught about it in the Catholic school I went to. Here’s a link that talks about human evolution in case you’re interested.

mnsu.edu/emuseum/biology/humanevolution/fosrec.html

And furthermore, according to the Bible, the earth is only under 10,000 years old, and the first humans (Adam and Eve) came into existence about 6500 years ago. Science and math have shown that this is simply not possible. If there was only one man and one women 6500 years ago, there would be a lot less people in the world today, and this is a proven mathematical and scientific fact. Not to mention scientists have found things that are well over 10,000 years old.

JPII talks about intelligent design and evolution in his books. It’s ok to believe in evolution and the CC at the same time.

See above. And the age of the earth cannot be determined biblically since “a thousand years are as one day and one day is as a thousand years” to God. And to the bolded above… Not so much. It is an old adage but still a good one that there are “Lies, damned lies, and statistics”.

Maybe not quite in that specific way, but from what I understand it means something along those lines. It’s just not possible for original sin to be an actual sin we were “born with” because we couldn’t have committed any sins before we were born.

See my example above… again… Check out the difference between concupiscience and original sin too, btw.

And from everything I know about God, it just doesn’t make any sense to believe that He would send a good person to Hell simply because they never got a chance to be baptized and therefore was never cleansed of this so called “sin” they never even committed.

I know this is callous, but if that is how you feel then you dont know the God of scriptures very well, nor do you understand your faith very well. Check out the Catechism on baptism and the allowances made for non-christians, non-baptized, and non-catholics. I think it will deepen your understanding of your faith in a very good way.

continued below

 

[FidesSpesCarita]

This is probably one of the most accurate things I’ve seen on CAF. Going to hell involves deliberately turning away from God (or if you don’t believe in God, it means deliberately turning away from what is good). Turning away from God means committing a mortal sin with full knowledge and consent of the will. You don’t go to hell for not being baptized or for not being a Christian or for committing a moral sin that you didn’t know was wrong. (And I learned about all this in Catholic school). Going to Hell is all about intent and deliberation. And this is why only God can say who is and is not going to hell. Because only HE knows what is in our hearts and what our intentions are.

Yes, you have described commission of MORTAL sin above. But how much sin is necessary to be deprived of heaven?

[BIBLEDRB]Revelations 21:27[/BIBLEDRB]

It is not possible to be “clean” without Christ, barring those allowances in the Catechism.

Hell is simply a place where God is not present. People put themselves there because they make a conscious choice to turn away from Him, aka to turn away from love or what is righteous. So when they die they go to the only place that God is NOT present - Hell. The problem is, when we die we realize how much we need God and we realize that He’s the only thing that can fulfill us or make us happy. That’s why Hell is sooooo horrible, because we are away from happiness/God. (but we choose to put ourselves there)

There is no definitive theological understanding of the nature of hell, but I tend to agree with you completely on this point.

The OT is full of righteous smite-downs as the Israelites took the holy land by the sword.

lol, smite-downs… I am going to steal that… and the “Versomatic” as well.

I apologize for responding in such length to one particular poster, but I want to make sure that sound doctrine is presented on this (to the best of my knowledge and ability).

To the OP:

essentially yes, we commit sins constantly. The VAST majority of these are unintentional however and as such do not cause the bond between us and Christ to be harmed. It is only mortal sin which effectively severs our relationship with Christ until we repent of it. In order to be a mortal sin it requires a grave matter, full knowledge of the sin, and full consent of the will. In those circumstances, it is pretty obvious what is a mortal sin and what is not to the well formed conscience.

Scrupulosity, however, can be discussed at length so if that is what you are questioning do a forum search or start a scrupulosity thread rather than a general “what isnt sin” thread.

 

[FidesSpesCarita]

Catechism references for baptism etc.

1213 Holy Baptism is the basis of the whole Christian life, the gateway to life in the Spirit (vitae spiritualis ianua),4 and the door which gives access to the other sacraments. Through Baptism we are freed from sin and reborn as sons of God; we become members of Christ, are incorporated into the Church and made sharers in her mission: "Baptism is the sacrament of regeneration through water in the word."5

1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.60 He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them.61 Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament.62 The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are “reborn of water and the Spirit.” God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.

1258 The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.

1259 For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.

1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery."63 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,"64 allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.

 

[FidesSpesCarita]

More catechism references

“Outside the Church there is no salvation”

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338

I suggest you read this whole section Debora, and the section I quoted from just above to get a firmer grasp of what your Church teaches on the sacrament of Baptism and paragraphs 385 - 412 which I am quoting below

Original sin - an essential truth of the faith

388 With the progress of Revelation, the reality of sin is also illuminated. Although to some extent the People of God in the Old Testament had tried to understand the pathos of the human condition in the light of the history of the fall narrated in Genesis, they could not grasp this story’s ultimate meaning, which is revealed only in the light of the death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ.261 We must know Christ as the source of grace in order to know Adam as the source of sin. The Spirit-Paraclete, sent by the risen Christ, came to “convict the world concerning sin”,262 by revealing him who is its Redeemer.

389 The doctrine of original sin is, so to speak, the “reverse side” of the Good News that Jesus is the Savior of all men, that all need salvation and that salvation is offered to all through Christ. The Church, which has the mind of Christ,263 knows very well that we cannot tamper with the revelation of original sin without undermining the mystery of Christ.

How to read the account of the fall

390 The account of the fall in Genesis 3 uses figurative language, but **affirms a primeval event, a deed that took place at the beginning of the history of man.**264 Revelation gives us the certainty of faith that the whole of human history is marked by the original fault freely committed by our first parents.265