Is it easier to post what isn't a sin?

[Debora123]

I’m honestly getting pretty sick of this thread. It’s frustrating to see Catholics saying such things. My mother and I both went to a catholic college and got bachelor’s degrees in theology, specializing in Catholicism, and people still quote me and tell me I’m wrong, while making pretty weak points and often times even misinterpreting what I said.

And to FidesSpesCarita, I’m not going to sit here and break down everything you said about my posts and tell you what I think. But I do want to touch on a of couple points:

1. I WAS talking about the evolution of the human physical form. You’re the second person to call me out and tell me I’m wrong about what I said regarding evolution because you say “God created our souls.” Yes, I know, God did create our souls. I was talking about the physical form, I don’t know where in there people are getting the idea that I’m suggesting that our souls weren’t created by God.
2. I never said anything about aids not being something that we inherit. I simply said SINS aren’t. A sin isn’t the same thing as a disease. It can’t be inherited. Although I am well aware that aids can be inherited.
3. Yes, you quoted the bible. The bible says many many HEINOUS things. There are a lot of things in the bible that we don’t take literally, and that we completely ignore. The bible isn’t the main pillar of truth, the Church is.

I don’t know what it is about this forum that attracts so many fundamentalists/extremists, but I’ve never heard a Catholic say that someone who isn’t baptized or who isn’t Christian is going to Hell. That’s definitely not what I’ve been taught. Both the Catechism and the Bible say a lot of things that can very easily be taken out of context, and that we know aren’t meant to be taken so literally. JPII himself admits to contradicting the Catechism in multiple occasions. We can’t sit here and say we know who is going to Hell based on what they have and have not done in their lives. One, because it’s not that black and white, and two, because it’s God’s business and God’s business alone. Only He knows what is in someone’s heart, so how about we stop being so ridiculous and claiming that we know when someone is or is not “saved.”

It’s no wonder Atheists and fallen Catholics have such a horrible view of Christianity. So many of us (actually not that many, just ppl on this forum apparently) just sit on our high horses and pretend to know who’s going to hell and who’s saved and who isn’t, and acting like we’re better than others because we are baptized and therefore we’re supposedly not going to Hell like the unbaptized or unbelievers. God calls us to be humble and loving and charitable, and that doesn’t include judging people in the way that only God can. When we do that, we are only pushing them further away from us and most importantly, further away from God.

 

[slywakka250]

. We can’t sit here and say we know who is going to Hell based on what they have and have not done in their lives. One, because it’s not that black and white, and two, because it’s God’s business and God’s business alone. Only He knows what is in someone’s heart, so how about we stop being so ridiculous and claiming that we know when someone is or is not “saved.”

When we die, we are locked in to heaven or hell forever. Period. Our entire life has but one purpose; to choose heaven or hell. Its is terrifyingly “black and white”.

I think its very relevant to consider the odds when we think about how we want to live our lives. God created man with free will, but God stacked the deck in the sense that he foreknew (by his omniscience) which of his created souls would freely choose hell and which would freely choose heaven. Furthermore, God knew from the beginning how many humans would come into existence before the end of time. So God foreknew the final count of people in hell vs. people in heaven.

So, regarding original sin, it really doesn’t matter much because God foreknew he was going to send his Son to die for our sins, and restore us to Grace. What really matters is how many accept his Grace, and why only certain people, and not others???

What really gets me upset is how many people seem to make this decision about heaven and hell, without even realizing it!! I’m talking here about Americans (who have heard the Gospel) but just aren’t the Church going type, who don’t consider morality to be all that important. Some of these people are parents who love (not love in the sense of raising them Catholic, but a more humanistic love) and care for their Children, and then they go on to die a sudden death, and WHAM, right into hell they go; they didn’t even see it coming! they’ll be like oh ****, so God does exist. it really was a mortal sin to miss Mass. I knew it but, I really didn’t take it seriously . So these parents who loved their children are rejected by God for eternity. What kind of loving Father is this!??

 

[Vince1022]

I

Murder and torture supposedly ordered by a deity is still murder and torture.

Of course. Good thing Catholics don’t teach God ordered murder and torture!

 

[Vince1022]

Do you have any idea how many Chinese, Hindus, Africans, and other people have never heard of Jesus? They never even had the opportunity to reject the ‘Gospel Truth.’

Yet they are all deserving of Hellfire?

Of course not!

Just as the Catholic Church teaches.

 

[Vince1022]

I thought that the whole purpose of missionary work was to expose people and to and get them to accept Jesus, because otherwise they would not be ‘saved’ and were condemned to Hellfire.

You apparently misunderstand Catholic missionary work then.

 

[StFrancisXavier]

It is sad that so many of God’s faithful are confused regarding issues that are so very black and white.
Please, read the Catechism of the Catholic Church and study Sacred Scripture. Listen to good, orthodox teaching like Tim Staples, Fr. John Corapi, Scott Hahn or Mike Aquilina. (Many more, but can’t think of them)
To often, Catholic teaching is watered down (particularly at the university level) in order to make it palatable to others.

 

[StFrancisXavier]

For good Catholic teaching, try lighthousecatholicmedia.org. Orthodox Catholic teaching, no holds barred.

 

[FidesSpesCarita]

I’m honestly getting pretty sick of this thread. It’s frustrating to see Catholics saying such things. My mother and I both went to a catholic college and got bachelor’s degrees in theology, specializing in Catholicism, and people still quote me and tell me I’m wrong, while making pretty weak points and often times even misinterpreting what I said.

I know what you meant, I wanted to clarify for those who did not. When you make the statement that

I said they were “ape like creatures,” not the same apes that exist today. There’s plenty of proof out there. There are fossils and skeletons of creatures that were somewhere in between a monkey and a human, and the older the skeletons were, the more ape like they were, while the newer ones were more human like. This is evidence that we evolved from species that didn’t start off as the human race today. We studied this and were taught about it in the Catholic school I went to.

JPII talks about intelligent design and evolution in his books. It’s ok to believe in evolution and the CC at the same time.

You leave yourself very open to people not understanding your statement.

And to FidesSpesCarita, I’m not going to sit here and break down everything you said about my posts and tell you what I think. But I do want to touch on a of couple points:

And away we go!!!

1. I WAS talking about the evolution of the human physical form. You’re the second person to call me out and tell me I’m wrong about what I said regarding evolution because you say “God created our souls.” Yes, I know, God did create our souls. I was talking about the physical form, I don’t know where in there people are getting the idea that I’m suggesting that our souls weren’t created by God.

See above. Your statements are ambiguous at best and show a lack of regard for your listener receiving the true teaching of the Catholic Church in regards to the creation of Man.

1. I never said anything about aids not being something that we inherit. I simply said SINS aren’t. A sin isn’t the same thing as a disease. It can’t be inherited. Although I am well aware that aids can be inherited.

Since you seem quite obstinate in asserting that you dont actually have to follow the teachings of the Church to be in the Church, I am going to answer this out of the Catechism… again…

404 How did the sin of Adam become the sin of all his descendants? The whole human race is in Adam “as one body of one man”.293 By this “unity of the human race” all men are implicated in Adam’s sin, as all are implicated in Christ’s justice. Still, the transmission of original sin is a mystery that we cannot fully understand. But we do know by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature. By yielding to the tempter, Adam and Eve committed a personal sin, but this sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state.294 It is a sin which will be transmitted by propagation to all mankind, that is, by the transmission of a human nature deprived of original holiness and justice. And that is why original sin is called “sin” only in an analogical sense: it is a sin “contracted” and not “committed” - a state and not an act.

405 Although it is proper to each individual,295 original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam’s descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called concupiscence". Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ’s grace, erases original sin and turns a man back towards God, but the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle.

1. Yes, you quoted the bible. The bible says many many HEINOUS things. There are a lot of things in the bible that we don’t take literally, and that we completely ignore. The bible isn’t the main pillar of truth, the Church is.

Please tell me you arent being serious here. You went to a CATHOLIC school and this what you received? What are the three “legs of the stool” we are all taught in Catechism class? Mine were Scripture, tradition, and the magisterium. But here’s a Catechism quote, since you love that work so very much

115 According to an ancient tradition, one can distinguish between two senses of Scripture: the literal and the spiritual, the latter being subdivided into the allegorical, moral and anagogical senses. The profound concordance of the four senses guarantees all its richness to the living reading of Scripture in the Church.

116 The literal sense is the meaning conveyed by the words of Scripture and discovered by exegesis, following the rules of sound interpretation: "All other senses of Sacred Scripture are based on the literal."83

117 The spiritual sense. Thanks to the unity of God’s plan, not only the text of Scripture but also the realities and events about which it speaks can be signs.

 

[FidesSpesCarita]

I don’t know what it is about this forum that attracts so many fundamentalists/extremists, but I’ve never heard a Catholic say that someone who isn’t baptized or who isn’t Christian is going to Hell. That’s definitely not what I’ve been taught. Both the Catechism and the Bible say a lot of things that can very easily be taken out of context, and that we know aren’t meant to be taken so literally. JPII himself admits to contradicting the Catechism in multiple occasions.I call Baloney on this one. If you can prove it do so, but dont make a statement like this without support. We can’t sit here and say we know who is going to Hell based on what they have and have not done in their lives. One, because it’s not that black and white, and two, because it’s God’s business and God’s business alone. Only He knows what is in someone’s heart, so how about we stop being so ridiculous and claiming that we know when someone is or is not “saved.”

Correct, we cannot say we know with certainty. But what we can say is that ONE SIN is enough to send us to hell. When we see people in sin we need to “admonish the sinner” and attempt to bring all people to heaven.

And I cant believe that you are a Catholic who went to Catholic School, apparently at least minored in theology, and still dont know the fundamentals of your faith… Bishop Sheen was apparently correct when he said “If you want your child to lose the faith, send him to a Catholic school. If you want him to fight for the faith, send him to a public school.”

Read the Gospels and tell me if YOU think Christ was the hippy “peace and love, we’re all ok, all roads lead to heaven” type of savior.

It’s no wonder Atheists and fallen Catholics have such a horrible view of Christianity. So many of us (actually not that many, just ppl on this forum apparently) just sit on our high horses and pretend to know who’s going to hell and who’s saved and who isn’t, and acting like we’re better than others because we are baptized and therefore we’re supposedly not going to Hell like the unbaptized or unbelievers. God calls us to be humble and loving and charitable, and that doesn’t include judging people in the way that only God can. When we do that, we are only pushing them further away from us and most importantly, further away from God.

I never have and never will make a statement that anyone is going to hell. I will state my faith and the biblically required foundation for attaining heaven. The comical part of that statement is when you look around the country, the religious orders that are gaining members are the orthodox orders while the heretodox orders are losing members. The Orthodox congregations are gaining members while the heretodox orders are slowly withering. Like Chesterton said “The truly liberal part of [Catholicism] is the Dogmatic Part”.

It is sad that so many of God’s faithful are confused regarding issues that are so very black and white.
Please, read the Catechism of the Catholic Church and study Sacred Scripture. Listen to good, orthodox teaching like Tim Staples, Fr. John Corapi, Scott Hahn or Mike Aquilina. (Many more, but can’t think of them)
To often, Catholic teaching is watered down (particularly at the university level) in order to make it palatable to others.

You should add Father Larry Richards (The Reason for Our Hope foundation) and Father Philip Wolfe (Audiosancto.com/org [cant remember which]) to your list.

 

[Big_Dummy]

One need only choose to walk in the spirit and display the fruit of the spirit – gal 5, romans 8 to avoid sin.

 

[Vince1022]

One need only choose to walk in the spirit and display the fruit of the spirit – gal 5, romans 8 to avoid sin.

Not if one is Catholic.

 

[FidesSpesCarita]

Not if one is Catholic.

Well, Big Dummy is technically correct here. It is a true statement that All we must do is life the law of God and prove our walk by our fruits.

THat philosophy, however, ignores the difficulties inherent in attempting to follow the example set by Jesus, the methods and helps put in place by God for us to do this, and the methods and helps God has instituted for us that we might be reconciled with him.

So, you are both correct.

I think the break here comes from the fact that we are all sinners and sin without desire or intent every day. Scripture tells us that a good man sins seven times each day, imagine how much those of us who are not “good” must sin, often without desire. This is a fact of our fallen state, coming from the original sin of Adam and Eve. The wonderful thing of our Catholic Faith is that we have the means of reconciling with God on earth, through confession. God has given us the means of repairing our relationship through His Grace operating through His priests.

The thing to concentrate on in the Church is not sin, but Grace. Look at how awesome our God is to have given us all of these graces which assist us in our walk towards Him (even if at times it feels like a death march). Look at how much God loves us, that He gave His only Son that we might be love and serve Him in this world and be happy with Him in the next.

If all you ever focus on is sin, you will become wrapped up in YOUR sin and begin to despair of ever attaining salvation when we are called to focus on GOD’s GRACE instead of ourselves.

FSC

 

[slywakka250]

If all you ever focus on is sin, you will become wrapped up in YOUR sin and begin to despair of ever attaining salvation when we are called to focus on GOD’s GRACE instead of ourselves.

FSC

I completely agree. focusing on God’s Grace and love is much healthier. I can’t seem to do this though. I routinely commit several grave sins, and can’t seem to find any motivation to stop. If I focus on grace, I tend to feel that God approves of my sin, and everythings ok. but what if its not?? sin really depresses me.

 

[Lost_Sheep]

If all you ever focus on is sin, you will become wrapped up in YOUR sin and begin to despair of ever attaining salvation when we are called to focus on GOD’s GRACE instead of ourselves.

I completely agree. focusing on God’s Grace and love is much healthier. I can’t seem to do this though. I routinely commit several grave sins, and can’t seem to find any motivation to stop. If I focus on grace, I tend to feel that God approves of my sin, and everythings ok. but what if its not?? sin really depresses me.

I agree with both of you. But often I think that God doesn’t really care about me so why bother. If my life on this earth is any indication of how much God “loves” me then I think it is a foregone conclusion that I won’t be going to Heaven so what difference does it make if I sin or not.

What’s He going to do; send me to Hell? I’m already there.

 

[FidesSpesCarita]

I completely agree. focusing on God’s Grace and love is much healthier. I can’t seem to do this though. I routinely commit several grave sins, and can’t seem to find any motivation to stop. If I focus on grace, I tend to feel that God approves of my sin, and everythings ok. but what if its not?? sin really depresses me.

God does not approve of your sin. But sin should not depress you. Sin is kind of like when you are learning to walk and fall down repeatedly. If you didnt keep trying to walk you would never be able to run. God simply picks you up and sets you on your feet and like a father stands aside and says “Come on, you can do it!!! Come to me!!!”

I agree with both of you. But often I think that God doesn’t really care about me so why bother. If my life on this earth is any indication of how much God “loves” me then I think it is a foregone conclusion that I won’t be going to Heaven so what difference does it make if I sin or not.

What’s He going to do; send me to Hell? I’m already there.

I do know this feeling. I know it, and I hate it. I think this very emotion, despair, is why God’s Church continues to tell us to do God’s will and (in essence) ignore our own emotions in most things. Emotions are fickle and will change, no matter how long you persist in despair (and mine lasted about 3.5 years) it will change.

St. Theresa of Avila

Let nothing disturb you.
Let nothing afrighten you.
All things are passing.
God alone is changeless
He who has patience wants for nothing
He who has God has all things.
God alone suffices.

 

[Vince1022]

Scripture tells us that a good man sins seven times each day

Where? Thanks.

 

[Vince1022]

Well, Big Dummy is technically correct here. It is a true statement that All we must do is life the law of God and prove our walk by our fruits.

If that is true, then why bother with the teachings of the Catholic Church? Or any Church?

 

[FidesSpesCarita]

Where? Thanks.

[BIBLEDRB]Proverbs 24:16[/BIBLEDRB]

If that is true, then why bother with the teachings of the Catholic Church? Or any Church?

See my post above, quoted below.

{edited slightly}That philosophy, however, ignores the difficulties inherent in attempting to follow the example set by Jesus, the methods and helps put in place by God for us to do this, and the methods and helps God has instituted for us that we might be reconciled with him.

I think the break here comes from the fact that we are all sinners and sin without desire or intent every day. Scripture tells us that a good man sins seven times each day, imagine how much those of us who are not “good” must sin, often without desire. This is a fact of our fallen state, coming from the original sin of Adam and Eve. The wonderful thing of our Catholic Faith is that we have the means of reconciling with God on earth, through confession. God has given us the means of repairing our relationship through His Grace operating through His priests.

The thing to concentrate on in the Church is not sin, but Grace. Look at how awesome our God is to have given us all of these graces which assist us in our walk towards Him (even if at times it feels like a death march). Look at how much God loves us, that He gave His only Son that we might be love and serve Him in this world and be happy with Him in the next.

 

[Vince1022]

[BIBLEDRB]Proverbs 24:16[/BIBLEDRB]

See my post above, quoted below.

Proverbs are just that, proverbs. They are not necessarily literally true, so claiming that passage means “good men” literally sin 7 times each day is …well…at best not required by Christian faith and at worst ridiculous.

Such a claim also begs other questions…what about women? How often do they sin daily?

What about “bad men” (and of course “bad women”)–how often do they sin daily?

If I sin 7 times in one day, no more and no less, in accordance with the Bible, does that mean I am de facto a “good man”?

 

[Vince1022]

See my post above, quoted below.

That didn’t answer the question of why the importance of any Church.