Is it easier to switch from a ECC to LCC? or EC to EC?

[Elvis_George]

I come from a heavily latinised EC church.

In the Byzantine church, I know the priest reads the main Gospel reading. But do the laity read other readings like in the OF Latin rite Mass?

we are getting better tho

 

[Alexandria2020]

we are getting better tho

I still feel like the 50-50 versum populum- ad orientem is still a compromise. It should be fully ad orientem.

And the readings by the laity, that’s an ordinary form influence right?

and for some reason the tune for the English Qurbana in Chicago eparchy just feels latinized. I can’t put my finger on exactly what it is.

 

[Phillip_Rolfes]

It should be fully ad orientem.

What’s your historical foundation for this argument? History shows that the Liturgy of the Word (at least in some portions of the East) was originally done from an ambo/platform that was set up in the midst of the congregation.

And the readings by the laity, that’s an ordinary form influence right?

Not necessarily. I believe in some areas it was a development of necessity more than anything. An ordained reader was supposed to be the one reading the Epistle, but in the absence of an ordained reader, a lay person would do the readings.

the tune for the English Qurbana in Chicago eparchy just feels latinized

Do you have a link to the music from the Chicago Eparchy? I know the Syriac music sounds quite different from Byzantine chant, which doesn’t necessarily mean Latinization.

 

[Alexandria2020]

What’s your historical foundation for this argument? History shows that the Liturgy of the Word (at least in some portions of the East) was originally done from an ambo/platform that was set up in the midst of the congregation.

… in the Syro-Malabar church- it goes ad orientem just before the liturgy of the eucharist starts. although some eparchies and missions have it fully versus populum. there’s 2 factions in the church now- the pro-Latin faction wants it just like the ordinary form while the pro-Syriac faction wants it how the Assyrian Church of the east does it.

Not necessarily. I believe in some areas it was a development of necessity more than anything. An ordained reader was supposed to be the one reading the Epistle, but in the absence of an ordained reader, a lay person would do the readings.

I guess I can live with that.

it’s quite distracting tbh. especially when they take too long by walking. the altar boys/girls/men are more convenient. that’s how it is in India.

Do you have a link to the music from the Chicago Eparchy? I know the Syriac music sounds quite different from Byzantine chant, which doesn’t necessarily mean Latinization.

sure.
this is the main youtube channel of the Chicago eparchy. but this one is an on going process. i suppose It’s improved now compared to before.
(basically when the liturgy was translated from Syriac to Malayalam (Indian) in the 60s- they were able to keep the same Syriac tune-- but now with the switch to English it’s like a new music has popped up) - of course another side note is a few eparchies in India have created their own tunes now-- so there’s a few different tunes as well.

 

[dochawk]

And the readings by the laity, that’s an ordinary form influence right?

No, it’s a shortage of actual lectors.

There are very, very few of these around these days. They are even scarcer than subdeacons.

Epistle and Old Testament readings are not the roles of the higher clergy, and never have (properly) been.

 

[Alexandria2020]

No, it’s a shortage of actual lectors.

Gotcha.

But in the SyroMalabar Church, the altar boys/men would do the readings, back in India. Here in the US it’s the laity now. But in this Covid time, it’s the altar boys/men now I noticed.

 

[dochawk]

I’m not sure about Syriac practice, but I assume that it’s similar to byzantine in that those boys and men are filling in already for the missing subdeacons . . .

We (byzantine nee Ruthenian) are not using servers at all, just priest and (if there) deacon at my parish. the cantor (again, not actually instituted; those are also in short supply) is currently chanting the epistle.

 

[Alexandria2020]

In any case, I was raised in the LC and formally petitioned to switch over 6 years ago to the UGCC. It was a very simple process and took less than a month

who were involved in that process? the local diocese Latin bishop and the eastern eparchy’s bishop?

 

[Angel_Gabriel]

Yes, I wrote to both and had to include my baptismal documents for me, my husband and our kids under the age of 14…at the time all of them were. When the Latin bishop released me I then sent that letter to the UGCC bishop who then accepted me under his omophorion. It was a pretty simple process. I kept all of the paperwork just in case my kids ran into issues later (marriage or ordination process etc).

 

[Alexandria2020]

So pretty much your own bishop has to release you. That’s first step.

 

[babochka]

So pretty much your own bishop has to release you. That’s first step.

Ultimately, both Bishops have to consent. I’m not sure that it matters which Bishop gives permission first. In my eparchy, the letter is written to the receiving bishop, who then contacts the Latin bishop for his consent.

 

[Alexandria2020]

Ultimately, both Bishops have to consent. I’m not sure that it matters which Bishop gives permission first. In my eparchy, the letter is written to the receiving bishop, who then contacts the Latin bishop for his consent.

consider this hypothetical scenario.

my EC eparchy was created in the US in 2001. for the immigrants who came here prior to that, like say in the 70s, they obviously became a part of the Latin church. And now they are just more inclined to be Latin. So let’s call this person Mr X… his son, and his son’s son… how does their situation work out? They are attending the Latin church but they are technically EC.

 

[jeannetherese]

My understanding is that family members and descendants would remain EC short of a formal transfer-with one exception: should a daughter marry a Latin Catholic then the children from that marriage would follow their father and be considered Latin Catholics. To change this for the children would require a formal transfer into the EC.
By the same token, should a Latin Catholic woman marry an EC, the children from that marriage follow the father and are considered EC unless a formal transfer is made.

 

[Angel_Gabriel]

Correct. I think that the way one submits a request is different for each Eparchy. Mine is notoriously sloooowwwww with everything so when it went through so quickly everyone I knew was surprised! The local Latin diocese was, as usual, super quick.

 

[babochka]

By the same token, should a Latin Catholic woman marry an EC, the children from that marriage follow the father and are considered EC unless a formal transfer is made.

A formal transfer would not be necessary in this case. If both parents agree, then the children can be ascribed to the Church of the mother.

 

[jeannetherese]

A formal transfer would not be necessary in this case. If both parents agree, then the children can be ascribed to the Church of the mother.

Hi babochka,
How would this be documented for future reference? Wouldn’t there be at least some note at baptism or some paperwork filled out and filed?
What I am wondering is what would be the difference between being ascribed and being formally transferred in the legal (church law) sense of things?

 

[jeannetherese]

If both parents agree, then the children can be ascribed to the Church of the mother.

If they disagree, the default would be the father, if I recall correctly.

 

[dochawk]

. If both parents agree, then the children can be ascribed to the Church of the mother.

actually, to any Church h.

the most common in the US is probably both parents RC, but attending an eastern church, and ascribing to that church.

How would this be documented for future reference?

baptismal record of baptizing parish.

 

[Margaret_Ann]

In our parish either the altar boys or laymen read the Epistle.

 

[Margaret_Ann]

A RC woman I know is now at the Byzantine Carmelites in Sugarloaf for a “come and see” visit. She might switch over and become Byzantine.