Is it even a posibility?

[The_Exodus]

I need help here. Let’s say I sin in thought and deed by spreading a false rumor about a person I am competing with for some position.

How is God involved in that? What is the motion? What is the personification?

Thanks

Since evil is only an accidental act, it cannot be totally chosen in some isolated way that is not attached to good at all. Every evil action is really only a deformed or inadequate act towards good. From the metaphysical aspect, such an act is always a lesser manifestation of being than a good act. It is a certain “tending toward non-being.” In a word, it is a certain turning back towards nothingness. Such an act can only occur in a defectible creature.

To be more precise, the defectible creature, when it defects, does not really “act” at all, but fails to act – it shows its defect. But, since we cannot choose or will a “nothingness,” this defect manifests itself in some act which has as its object a lesser good. For instance, it is evil to fornicate, but sometimes that act is chosen due to the certain good – physical pleasure – which is attached to it. Every act is done due to some apparent good, though, when the good is considered absolutely, it fails to be the better one – e.g. obeying the command of God is a greater good than fornicating. So, when a creature defects, and since it cannot will a nothingness, it is moved by God towards some end appropriate of its defect – like fornication, for instance.

The best books on this subject are Garrigou-Lagrange’s: Predestination, The Trinity and God the Creator, and Grace (they are three separate books.) The important parts of the Trinity where he speaks on the notion of evil and deficient causality can be found here:

ewtn.com/library/theology/trinity2.htm#25

Grace, in which the important chapter is VI which speaks to sufficient grace, can be found online here: ewtn.com/library/Theology/gracegarrlagr.HTM

 

[seagal]

Originally Posted by The Exodus forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
From a strictly philosophical perspective, no one can do anything – even sin – without God. That’s not to say that God gives the defect in the sin, but he does give the motion in which that defect is personified in whatever physical or psychological act that is sinful. Insofar as good acts are concerned (like love), no creature – atheist, theist, gnat or seraphim – can do anything at all without both grace and motion.

I need help here. Let’s say I sin in thought and deed by spreading a false rumor about a person I am competing with for some position.

How is God involved in that? What is the motion? What is the personification?

Thanks

God is involved because, as Paul said in Acts 17:28 “in him we live and move and have our being”. In other words, without God we are powerless to do anything, good or bad. What would be the point for God to give us free will and then left us unable to act on our choice? This is not to say that God helps us to sin, but he allows it. If he didn’t allow it, it wouldn’t happen.

 

[gtrenewed]

Originally Posted by The Exodus forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
From a strictly philosophical perspective, no one can do anything – even sin – without God. That’s not to say that God gives the defect in the sin, but he does give the motion in which that defect is personified in whatever physical or psychological act that is sinful. Insofar as good acts are concerned (like love), no creature – atheist, theist, gnat or seraphim – can do anything at all without both grace and motion.

God is involved because, as Paul said in Acts 17:28 “in him we live and move and have our being”. In other words, without God we are powerless to do anything, good or bad. What would be the point for God to give us free will and then left us unable to act on our choice? This is not to say that God helps us to sin, but he allows it. If he didn’t allow it, it wouldn’t happen.

By giving us free will God has conferred to us power to act by choice. Without God we could still act but it would quickly lead to annihilation as evidenced in the Book of Revelation. So He does restrain until that restraint is removed as scripture says.

All goes back to the creator for if He did not create us then nothing happens. Once He created us though He gave us certain powers that exist because of Him but that can be used opposite to His will by our free will.

He gave us the power to use our emotions, like love, whether we acknowledge Him or not. However, God is not responsible for our choices and is only connected to our choices by being the creator of a creature that can choose.

All examples are woefully inadequate but I will use one: the parents of a mass murderer are not guilty of the crime as long as they stand against the crime. God is not guilty of our crimes because He stands for good, in fact He is good according to scripture.

The works of the flesh and the Spirit are outlined in Galatians. Love is only mentioned by being in the Spirit meaning we have accepted God through Jesus Christ and our spirits have been reborn as was pointed out to Nicodemus. So to the OP’s question, we have to point out that ultimately the answer is no, see Revelations, but since He restrains and provides grace, we can show a lesser form of love, a goodness that looks to others welfare as well as our own.

 

[gtrenewed]

Since evil is only an accidental act, it cannot be totally chosen in some isolated way that is not attached to good at all. Every evil action is really only a deformed or inadequate act towards good. From the metaphysical aspect, such an act is always a lesser manifestation of being than a good act. It is a certain “tending toward non-being.” In a word, it is a certain turning back towards nothingness. Such an act can only occur in a defectible creature.

To be more precise, the defectible creature, when it defects, does not really “act” at all, but fails to act – it shows its defect. But, since we cannot choose or will a “nothingness,” this defect manifests itself in some act which has as its object a lesser good. For instance, it is evil to fornicate, but sometimes that act is chosen due to the certain good – physical pleasure – which is attached to it. Every act is done due to some apparent good, though, when the good is considered absolutely, it fails to be the better one – e.g. obeying the command of God is a greater good than fornicating. So, when a creature defects, and since it cannot will a nothingness, it is moved by God towards some end appropriate of its defect – like fornication, for instance.

The best books on this subject are Garrigou-Lagrange’s: Predestination, The Trinity and God the Creator, and Grace (they are three separate books.) The important parts of the Trinity where he speaks on the notion of evil and deficient causality can be found here:

ewtn.com/library/theology/trinity2.htm#25

Grace, in which the important chapter is VI which speaks to sufficient grace, can be found online here: ewtn.com/library/Theology/gracegarrlagr.HTM

A lot to take in. I browsed the links you gave and saw things I agreed with and others I question most likely because I do not understand them yet.

I prefer the exposition of scripture to philosophy. When philosophy is tied back to scripture I think we get a better understanding.

This is fascinating and I need to be better read. However, to be defended against heresy one should look to two items: 1. does a philosophy take away the divinity of Jesus or His humanity; and 2. does it provide for greater physical pleasure here on earth for the proponents of the philosophy. Of course the church keeps us safe.

See my response to Seagall for an answer to the OP but I will do some study and get back at you. My initial feeling is that I find your response wanting but I am not in a position to intelligently compose a response. Thanks.

 

[PJM]

=The Exodus;7533123]Since evil is only an accidental act, it cannot be totally chosen in some isolated way that is not attached to good at all. Every evil action is really only a deformed or inadequate act towards good. From the metaphysical aspect, such an act is always a lesser manifestation of being than a good act. It is a certain “tending toward non-being.” In a word, it is a certain turning back towards nothingness. Such an act can only occur in a defectible creature.

To be more precise, the defectible creature, when it defects, does not really “act” at all, but fails to act – it shows its defect. But, since we cannot choose or will a “nothingness,” this defect manifests itself in some act which has as its object a lesser good. For instance, it is evil to fornicate, but sometimes that act is chosen due to the certain good – physical pleasure – which is attached to it. Every act is done due to some apparent good, though, when the good is considered absolutely, it fails to be the better one – e.g. obeying the command of God is a greater good than fornicating. So, when a creature defects, and since it cannot will a nothingness, it is moved by God towards some end appropriate of its defect – like fornication, for instance.

The best books on this subject are Garrigou-Lagrange’s: Predestination, The Trinity and God the Creator, and Grace (they are three separate books.) The important parts of the Trinity where he speaks on the notion of evil and deficient causality can be found here:

ewtn.com/library/theology/trinity2.htm#25

Grace, in which the important chapter is VI which speaks to sufficient grace, can be found online here: ewtn.com/library/Theology/gracegarrlagr.HTM

Sorry friend; but I disagree.

We are Created by God with a mind, intellect, FREEWILL andd soul; precisely so that we can chose to Know, Love and serve God; or NOT! We chose either God over Evil, OT Evil over Good.

Where Evil exist, so does Grace. Where grace abounds, Evil is lurking nearby. It is always man’s freewill that choses one’s own destinity.

The concept of predestination is anti-biblical, denies God’s absolutely necessary Justice and Goodnesss, and denies humanities freewill. It is at best, a FALSE-positive. It is founded on a lack of understanding that “God’s pre-Knowledge” in NO-WAY amounts to Predestination. **WHY? **Because God cannot deny the way He CREATED us, nor DENY humanity the opportunity to use there Spiritual Gifts of mind, intellect, FREEWILL and Soul, to decide for themselves where Eternity will be spent.

SUCH an action by God counters God’s essential Goodness and Divine Justice. Such an action would require God to no longer be God. This idea steems from personal interpetation of the Bible; and is yet another proof that doing so is a SOUL endangering practice.

**2Tim.3 Verses 15 to 16 ** "and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings which are able to instruct you for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,"

***Either THIS IS A TRUE STATEMENT; OR the Bible is useless for teaching and learning the Christian Faith. ***

**2nd. Peter 1: 20-21 ** “First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God. “

**2 Pet.3: 16 **“Speaking of this as he [PAUL] in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures. “

God Bless,
Pat

 

[The_Exodus]

Thank you PJM for your comments.

We are Created by God with a mind, intellect, FREEWILL andd soul; precisely so that we can chose to Know, Love and serve God; or NOT! We chose either God over Evil, OT Evil over Good.

I agree that we have free will. Nothing in what I said contradicts this.

The concept of predestination is anti-biblical, denies God’s absolutely necessary Justice and Goodnesss, and denies humanities freewill.

I’m sure you are aware that the word “predestination” is found in the New Testament (I think) four times, and the concept of God’s sovereignty and absolute control over creation is found all throughout Scripture. Perhaps then you could explain what you mean when you say the concept is “anti-biblical.”

PJM:

It is founded on a lack of understanding that “God’s pre-Knowledge” in NO-WAY amounts to Predestination.

My view is that God’s foreknowledge is based on his predetermining will. Future contingent things only become such, and thus God only knows them, based on his eternal decree. No creatures have any being in themselves. Outside of Gods will, they are nothings, and so God only sees them insofar as he has determined to see them. How could God see the action of a creature, if that very action depends on God’s will to move the creature? The contingent state of the creature – it’s choice – is non-existent except in relation to God’s will, whether permissive or causal.

PJM:

Because God cannot deny the way He CREATED us, nor DENY humanity the opportunity to use there Spiritual Gifts of mind, intellect, FREEWILL and Soul, to decide for themselves where Eternity will be spent.

Predestination does not deny any of these things.

PJM:

SUCH an action by God counters God’s essential Goodness and Divine Justice.

How?

Such an action would require God to no longer be God. This idea steems from personal interpetation of the Bible; and is yet another proof that doing so is a SOUL endangering practice.

***Either THIS IS A TRUE STATEMENT; OR the Bible is useless for teaching and learning the Christian Faith. ***

I too believe in the inspiration of Scripture, which is why I believe in the doctrine of Predestination. I used to be a “free-willer” and Molinist/Arminian, meaning that man’s will was autonomous, but it was the Bible which changed by view. The Scripture is too strong to suggest otherwise (e.g. Romans 9, John 6, the book of Exodus, etc.)

We could discuss various Scriptural passages if you’d like to do so.

Thank you for your post.

 

[PJM]

=The Exodus;7536305]Thank you PJM for your comments.

I agree that we have free will. Nothing in what I said contradicts this.

I’m sure you are aware that the word “predestination” is found in the New Testament (I think) four times, and the concept of God’s sovereignty and absolute control over creation is found all throughout Scripture. Perhaps then you could explain what you mean when you say the concept is “anti-biblical.”

Your comments and question are much appreciated. I should have offered mor information

**Acts.4: 28 **“to do whatever thy hand and thy plan had predestined to take place”.

**Acts 4: 26 -27 **“The kings of the earth set themselves in array, and the rulers were gathered together,against the Lord and against his Anointed’ – for truly in this city there were gathered together against thy holy servant Jesus, whom thou didst anoint, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel,”

***Is speaking in fulfilment of OT prophesies. ***

Rom.8 29-30 “For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren. And those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified.”

This is what I had in mind in making my statement. It is often taken that God picks and choses BY HIMSELF who attains heaven and who will be sent to Hell; without any othr considerations. I IS THIS ERRANT THOUGHT OF WHICH I SPOKE IF AS “ANTI-BIBLICAL.”

By which I meant “not of or from God;” for all of he reasons I expressed. or-Knowldge by God dos NOT imply or express Pre-Judgemt by God; which is aoopoesed to both th Willof god and the way He, God, reated humanity with a mind, intellect a frewill; al of which are ignored in the positon of God pre-judging humanity.

[QOTE]My view is that God’s foreknowledge is based on his predetermining will. Future contingent things only become such, and thus God only knows them, based on his eternal decree. No creatures have any being in themselves. Outside of Gods will, they are nothings, and so God only sees them insofar as he has determined to see them. How could God see the action of a creature, if that very action depends on God’s will to move the creature? The contingent state of the creature – it’s choice – is non-existent except in relation to God’s will, whether permissive or causal.

Predestination does not deny any of these things.

Not so my friend.

God’s design of humanity allows for completely independent choice to, or NOT Too, Know, Love and Serve God. In fact, only humanity has this potential that is a PRODUCT of Divine Will, BUT not dependent upon it. [Gen. 1:26-17].

God’s fore - knowledge in no way influences God absolute need for Goodness and for Justice.Because he “knows” in no-way leads a human being to sin or chose not to sin.

You and I decide whee we wil spend eternity an God “only” affirmes our personl choices.

**Heb.6: 10 **“For God is not so unjust as to overlook your work and the love which you showed for his sake in serving the saints, as you still do.”

**1 Peter 1: 17 **“Now if you invoke as Father him who judges impartially according to each one’s works, conduct yourselves with reverence during the time of your sojourning, “

**Rev.2: 23 **“and I will strike her children dead. And all the churches shall know that I am he who searches mind and heart, and I will give to each of you as your works deserve.”

I too believe in the inspiration of Scripture, which is why I believe in the doctrine of Predestination. I used to be a “free-willer” and Molinist/Arminian, meaning that man’s will was autonomous, but it was the Bible which changed by view. The Scripture is too strong to suggest otherwise (e.g. Romans 9, John 6, the book of Exodus, etc.)

We could discuss various Scriptural passages if you’d like to do so.

Thank you for your post.

God Bless my friend, and I have included some biblical evidence of the Catholic Position based on a Biblical Foundation.

Pat:thumbsup: