G
- Status
P
PJM
Guest
Please permit me [the OP] to interject a thought here
I’m keenly aware of the Protestant position of denial based on John 6: 63 [or 64] depending on the bible version quoted:
From the RSV:
John.6 Verses 63 to 64
It is the spirit that gives life, the flesh is of no avail; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But there are some of you that do not believe." For Jesus knew from the first who those were that did not believe, and who it was that would betray him.
WHAT THIS is actually teaching is John 4: 23-24
But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for such the Father seeks to worship him. God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth." … in other WORDS, the Spirit IS GOD; Is Jesus both in his human nature and in His Divine Nature
THANKS so much!
Patrick
M
Mammoths
Guest
John 6 is the chapter of the Bible that makes the most compelling case against the real presence in my mind. I state that subjectively not authoritatively. I can’t get over, “the flesh profits nothing, it is the spirit that gives life. The Words that I speak to you they are spirit and life.” “This is the work of God that you believe in Him who sent me.” It seems like Jesus is doing what he sometimes did by confusing the crowd so he could explain to the disciples. On this case peter responds as though he gets the point that Jesus is talking about himself as the WORD of life. It is his message that gives life. The manna in the wilderness was physical food but the words of Jesus, his substance, is spiritual food.
Anyway, from a bible only point of view, john 6 is not so clearly a proof of the real presence doctrine. It’s not a contradiction, it’s just that the real presence is the less obvious interpretation and not necessary to explain the text.
P
PJM
Guest
PLEASE KNOW THAT DUE TO THE GREAT IMPORTANCE OF THIS POST-REPLY *, I AM DRAFTING A DETAILED IN DEPTH RESPONSE TO IT.
PLEASE BE LOOKING FOR IT ASAP
God Bless you,
Patrick*
W
wmscott
Guest
PLEASE KNOW THAT DUE TO THE GREAT IMPORTANCE OF THIS POST-REPLY *, I AM DRAFTING A DETAILED IN DEPTH RESPONSE TO IT.
PLEASE BE LOOKING FOR IT ASAP
God Bless you,
Patrick*
Looking forward to it
I know the answer and know that it really needs to details response that I know you are preparing. I dont want to steal your thunder
P
PJM
Guest
P
PJM
Guest
START OF PT 2 OF 3
Can WE agree that GOD is omnipotent?
**God CAN DO “ANY” good-thing. IF, as the RCC teaches, Jesus IS Truly, Really & Substantially [entirely] Present in Catholic Holy Communion; then THIS reality would be; & IS, the greatest possible “Good.” God in Person in our Midst! WOW!
It then becomes my task to make evident the truths of this reality, which I will do biblically and materially**.
OUR CATECHISM
**1324 **The Eucharist is “the source and summit of the Christian life.” “The other sacraments, and indeed all ecclesiastical ministries and works of the apostolate, are bound up with the Eucharist and are oriented toward it. For in the blessed Eucharist is contained the whole spiritual good of the Church, namely Christ himself, our Pasch.” “sacrifice.”]
What this is saying in the Eucharist is a “RE-Presentation”; NOT a mere representationn. It is the now GLORIED Body of Jesus Jn.20:19-23, that is made present in a reenactment of the one Original sacrifice of Christ, time & time again forever.
[4] It is necessary to point out that it is NOT John 6 alone that provides the necessary for you, biblical evidence. FIVE different Bible authors share their testimony of this REALITY.
Mt.26: 26-28
Mk. 14: 21-24
LK. 22: 19-21
John 6: 47-58
Paul: 1st Cor. 11: 23-30
So let’s look at a few passages from John 6 & Paul to see what this one passage [John 6:63 /64] which is presumed to have the Power & Authority to override ALL of the above
John 6: 63-65 John.6: 63 It is the spirit that gives life, the flesh is of no avail; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. 64 But there are some of you that do not believe." For Jesus knew from the first who those were that did not believe, and who it was that would betray him. 65 And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."
John.6: 47 - 58
47 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.
51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh."
52 The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”
THIS sin is denial of GOD’S TRUTH
54 he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will CONDITIONALLY] raise him up at the last day.
**55 For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. **
56 He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. [AND THIS IS PRECISELY WHAT DOES TAKE PLACE IN CATHOLIC HOLY COMMUNION]
65 **And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.” **
John.6: 67 to 69 “Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also wish to go away?”
Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life; and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God."
DID the Early Church believe & Practice this? YES!
Acts 2: 42 and they devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and fellowship, to the breaking of bread [The Eucharist] and the prayers
Paul” 1st Cor 11: 23-30
For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, "This is my body which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me."
25 In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying,** “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.” **
27 Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord.
**28 Let a man examine himself, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself.
****NOTE WERE THIS JUST ORDINARY” BREAD & WINE, THEIR COULD BE NO SELF CONDEMNING OF JESUS CHRIST IN PERSON **
30 That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died. [Means: self-condemned themselves to Eternal Hell unless they repent & convert]
HOW could Jesus /GOD or the Catholic NT authors have been MORE specific; more precise in the language they; GUIDED by the HS, choose to use?
And despite ALL of these other teaching proofs we are to presume are made null & void based on One single passage? Verse 63; how LOGICAL is that?
[5] John.6: 63 It is the spirit that gives life, the flesh is of no avail; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. [See the commentaries]
So if this passage is indeed misunderstood [and it is]; then How & WHY is that so?
**TWO issues are the answer
BUT what Jesus was anticipating was His GLORIED & Risen body, Blood, Soul & Divinity. And ALL of its enhancements and expanded capabilities. Clearly what is implied here is the very Son of God which can ONLY be understood [verse 65] If & WHEN God makes such understanding possible.
END OF PT 2 OF 3
**[3] Can GOD not do this? **
Can WE agree that GOD is omnipotent?
**God CAN DO “ANY” good-thing. IF, as the RCC teaches, Jesus IS Truly, Really & Substantially [entirely] Present in Catholic Holy Communion; then THIS reality would be; & IS, the greatest possible “Good.” God in Person in our Midst! WOW!
It then becomes my task to make evident the truths of this reality, which I will do biblically and materially**.
OUR CATECHISM
**1324 **The Eucharist is “the source and summit of the Christian life.” “The other sacraments, and indeed all ecclesiastical ministries and works of the apostolate, are bound up with the Eucharist and are oriented toward it. For in the blessed Eucharist is contained the whole spiritual good of the Church, namely Christ himself, our Pasch.” “sacrifice.”]
What this is saying in the Eucharist is a “RE-Presentation”; NOT a mere representationn. It is the now GLORIED Body of Jesus Jn.20:19-23, that is made present in a reenactment of the one Original sacrifice of Christ, time & time again forever.
[4] It is necessary to point out that it is NOT John 6 alone that provides the necessary for you, biblical evidence. FIVE different Bible authors share their testimony of this REALITY.
Mt.26: 26-28
Mk. 14: 21-24
LK. 22: 19-21
John 6: 47-58
Paul: 1st Cor. 11: 23-30
So let’s look at a few passages from John 6 & Paul to see what this one passage [John 6:63 /64] which is presumed to have the Power & Authority to override ALL of the above
John 6: 63-65 John.6: 63 It is the spirit that gives life, the flesh is of no avail; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. 64 But there are some of you that do not believe." For Jesus knew from the first who those were that did not believe, and who it was that would betray him. 65 And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."
John.6: 47 - 58
47 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.
51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh."
52 The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”
THIS sin is denial of GOD’S TRUTH
54 he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will CONDITIONALLY] raise him up at the last day.
**55 For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. **
56 He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. [AND THIS IS PRECISELY WHAT DOES TAKE PLACE IN CATHOLIC HOLY COMMUNION]
65 **And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.” **
John.6: 67 to 69 “Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also wish to go away?”
Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life; and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God."
DID the Early Church believe & Practice this? YES!
Acts 2: 42 and they devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and fellowship, to the breaking of bread [The Eucharist] and the prayers
Paul” 1st Cor 11: 23-30
For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, "This is my body which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me."
25 In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying,** “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.” **
27 Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord.
**28 Let a man examine himself, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself.
****NOTE WERE THIS JUST ORDINARY” BREAD & WINE, THEIR COULD BE NO SELF CONDEMNING OF JESUS CHRIST IN PERSON **
30 That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died. [Means: self-condemned themselves to Eternal Hell unless they repent & convert]
HOW could Jesus /GOD or the Catholic NT authors have been MORE specific; more precise in the language they; GUIDED by the HS, choose to use?
And despite ALL of these other teaching proofs we are to presume are made null & void based on One single passage? Verse 63; how LOGICAL is that?
[5] John.6: 63 It is the spirit that gives life, the flesh is of no avail; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. [See the commentaries]
So if this passage is indeed misunderstood [and it is]; then How & WHY is that so?
**TWO issues are the answer
- Human pride [it’s not logical] verses 52 & 63
- Right understanding HAS to be granted by the HS who is greatly influenced by one’s humility**
BUT what Jesus was anticipating was His GLORIED & Risen body, Blood, Soul & Divinity. And ALL of its enhancements and expanded capabilities. Clearly what is implied here is the very Son of God which can ONLY be understood [verse 65] If & WHEN God makes such understanding possible.
END OF PT 2 OF 3
P
PJM
Guest
START OF PT 3 OF 3 REPLY 2 Mammoths
[6] MATERIAL EVIDENCE
Earlier I promised 2 forms of evidence. Above & below is the biblical evidence
The other form is ALSO directly from God in the form of Eucharistic Miracles, which can only happen through direct Godly intervention. God permits these for two reasons:
Heb.11: 1 “Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen”
[1] therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/a3.html
[2] churchpop.com/2015/06/28/5-extraordinary-eucharistic-miracles-with-pictures/
[3] churchmilitant.com/news/article/eucharistic-miracles-confirm-real-presence-of-jesus-christ
[6] THE MATERIAL EVIDENCE
Earlier I promised 2 forms of evidence. Above & below is the biblical evidence
The other form is ALSO directly from God in the form of Eucharistic Miracles, which can only happen through direct Godly intervention. God permits these for two reasons:
Heb.11: 1 “Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen”
Rom. 5: 2 “By whom also we have access through FAITH into His Grace, wherein we stand, and glory in the HOPE of the glory of the sons of God
**[1] therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/a3.html
[2] churchpop.com/2015/06/28/5-extraordinary-eucharistic-miracles-with-pictures/
[3] churchmilitant.com/news/article/eucharistic-miracles-confirm-real-presence-of-jesus-christ**
Haydock’s Catholic commentary on John 6:63-64
haydock1859.tripod.com/
Ver. 64. The flesh profiteth nothing. Dead flesh, separated from the spirit, in the gross manner they supposed they were to eat his flesh, would profit nothing. Neither doth man’s flesh, that is to say, man’s natural and carnal apprehension, (which refuses to be subject to the spirit, and words of Christ) profit anything.** But it would be the height of blasphemy, to say the living flesh of Christ (which we receive in the blessed sacrament, with his spirit, that is, with his soul and divinity) profiteth nothing. For if Christ’s flesh had profited us nothing, he would never have taken flesh for us, nor died in the flesh for us. —** Are spirit and life. ** The flesh[4] of itself profiteth nothing, not even the flesh of our Saviour Christ, were it not united to the divine person of Christ. But we must take care how we understand these words spoken by our Saviour**:
When I promise you life if you eat my flesh, I do not wish you to understand this of that gross and carnal manner, of cutting my members in pieces: such ideas are far from my mind: the flesh profiteth nothing. In the Scriptures, the word flesh is often put for the carnal manner of understanding anything. If you wish to enter into the spirit of my words, raise your hearts to a more elevated and spiritual way of understanding them
Matthew Henry’s Protestant Commentary
biblestudytools.com/commentaries/matthew-henry-complete/
Verses 60–71
We have here an account of the effects of Christ’s discourse. Some were offended and others edified by it; some driven from him and others brought nearer to him.
[2.] He gives them a general key to this and all such parabolical discourses, teaching them that they are to be understood spiritually, and not after a corporal and carnal manner: It is the spirit that quickeneth, the flesh profiteth nothing, John 6:63. As it is in the natural body, the animal spirits quicken and enliven it, and without these the most nourishing food would profit nothing (what would the body be the better for bread, if it were not quickened and animated by the spirit), so it is with the soul. First, …** Even the flesh of Christ, the sacrifice for sin, will avail us nothing unless the blessed Spirit quicken our souls thereby, and enforce the powerful influences of his death upon us, till we by his grace are planted together in the likeness of it.** Secondly, The doctrine of eating Christ’s flesh and drinking his blood, if it be understood literally, profits nothing, but rather leads us into mistakes and prejudices; but the spiritual sense or meaning of it quickens the soul, makes it alive and lively; for so it follows: …. Thirdly, The flesh profits nothing—those that are in the flesh (so some understand it), that are under the power of a carnal mind, profit not by Christ’s discourses; but the Spirit quickeneth—those that have the Spirit, that are spiritual, are quickened and enlivened by them; for they are received ad modum recipientis—so as to correspond with the state of the receiver’s mind. They found fault with Christ’s sayings, whereas the fault was in themselves; it is only to sensual minds that spiritual things are senseless and sapless, spiritual minds relish them; see 1 Cor. 2:14, 15.
SHOULD ANYONE WISH TO RECEIVE MY ENTIRE REPLY; PLEASE SEND ME A PRIVATE MESSAGE REQUEST.
GBY
[6] MATERIAL EVIDENCE
Earlier I promised 2 forms of evidence. Above & below is the biblical evidence
The other form is ALSO directly from God in the form of Eucharistic Miracles, which can only happen through direct Godly intervention. God permits these for two reasons:
- 1Tim.2: 3 to 5 “This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. - To provide the obstinate minds & hearts scientifically proven evidence so that it is self-damming
Heb.11: 1 “Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen”
[1] therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/a3.html
[2] churchpop.com/2015/06/28/5-extraordinary-eucharistic-miracles-with-pictures/
[3] churchmilitant.com/news/article/eucharistic-miracles-confirm-real-presence-of-jesus-christ
[6] THE MATERIAL EVIDENCE
Earlier I promised 2 forms of evidence. Above & below is the biblical evidence
The other form is ALSO directly from God in the form of Eucharistic Miracles, which can only happen through direct Godly intervention. God permits these for two reasons:
- 1Tim.2: 3 to 5 “This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. - To provide the obstinate minds & hearts illogical, impartial scientifically proven evidence & PROOF so that the obstinate are damming themselves, they ALONE are to blame.
Heb.11: 1 “Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen”
Rom. 5: 2 “By whom also we have access through FAITH into His Grace, wherein we stand, and glory in the HOPE of the glory of the sons of God
**[1] therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/a3.html
[2] churchpop.com/2015/06/28/5-extraordinary-eucharistic-miracles-with-pictures/
[3] churchmilitant.com/news/article/eucharistic-miracles-confirm-real-presence-of-jesus-christ**
Haydock’s Catholic commentary on John 6:63-64
haydock1859.tripod.com/
Ver. 64. The flesh profiteth nothing. Dead flesh, separated from the spirit, in the gross manner they supposed they were to eat his flesh, would profit nothing. Neither doth man’s flesh, that is to say, man’s natural and carnal apprehension, (which refuses to be subject to the spirit, and words of Christ) profit anything.** But it would be the height of blasphemy, to say the living flesh of Christ (which we receive in the blessed sacrament, with his spirit, that is, with his soul and divinity) profiteth nothing. For if Christ’s flesh had profited us nothing, he would never have taken flesh for us, nor died in the flesh for us. —** Are spirit and life. ** The flesh[4] of itself profiteth nothing, not even the flesh of our Saviour Christ, were it not united to the divine person of Christ. But we must take care how we understand these words spoken by our Saviour**:
When I promise you life if you eat my flesh, I do not wish you to understand this of that gross and carnal manner, of cutting my members in pieces: such ideas are far from my mind: the flesh profiteth nothing. In the Scriptures, the word flesh is often put for the carnal manner of understanding anything. If you wish to enter into the spirit of my words, raise your hearts to a more elevated and spiritual way of understanding them
Matthew Henry’s Protestant Commentary
biblestudytools.com/commentaries/matthew-henry-complete/
Verses 60–71
We have here an account of the effects of Christ’s discourse. Some were offended and others edified by it; some driven from him and others brought nearer to him.
[2.] He gives them a general key to this and all such parabolical discourses, teaching them that they are to be understood spiritually, and not after a corporal and carnal manner: It is the spirit that quickeneth, the flesh profiteth nothing, John 6:63. As it is in the natural body, the animal spirits quicken and enliven it, and without these the most nourishing food would profit nothing (what would the body be the better for bread, if it were not quickened and animated by the spirit), so it is with the soul. First, …** Even the flesh of Christ, the sacrifice for sin, will avail us nothing unless the blessed Spirit quicken our souls thereby, and enforce the powerful influences of his death upon us, till we by his grace are planted together in the likeness of it.** Secondly, The doctrine of eating Christ’s flesh and drinking his blood, if it be understood literally, profits nothing, but rather leads us into mistakes and prejudices; but the spiritual sense or meaning of it quickens the soul, makes it alive and lively; for so it follows: …. Thirdly, The flesh profits nothing—those that are in the flesh (so some understand it), that are under the power of a carnal mind, profit not by Christ’s discourses; but the Spirit quickeneth—those that have the Spirit, that are spiritual, are quickened and enlivened by them; for they are received ad modum recipientis—so as to correspond with the state of the receiver’s mind. They found fault with Christ’s sayings, whereas the fault was in themselves; it is only to sensual minds that spiritual things are senseless and sapless, spiritual minds relish them; see 1 Cor. 2:14, 15.
SHOULD ANYONE WISH TO RECEIVE MY ENTIRE REPLY; PLEASE SEND ME A PRIVATE MESSAGE REQUEST.
GBY
M
Mammoths
Guest
Reeding…
M
Mammoths
Guest
Well put. If it were only John 6, it would be a weak case from a sola scriptura point of view. However the fact that communion is NEVER mentioned plainly as being a mere picture until the reformation is quite significant–especially since st Justin Martyr mentions it in opposition to an accusation cannibalism. If ever there were a time to say, “wait guys it’s just a picture!”
I have said before on this forum that the real presence is a quintessential proof test of the catholic claim of preserved sacred tradition. The reason I responded the way I did is because I have grown somewhat weary of comments made in oversimplification. If a person says, I can’t imagine in light of reference Xyz Protestants don’t agree with us, I take exception. The kind of explanation you gave is much more helpful.
I have said before on this forum that the real presence is a quintessential proof test of the catholic claim of preserved sacred tradition. The reason I responded the way I did is because I have grown somewhat weary of comments made in oversimplification. If a person says, I can’t imagine in light of reference Xyz Protestants don’t agree with us, I take exception. The kind of explanation you gave is much more helpful.
M
Mammoths
Guest
It’s a popular hermeneutical principle in the evangelical world too. Generally though it gets applied by ballot where each verse vets gets a vote. If a verse seems to be a minority, it must mean something different than what it means superficially. (This is a rhetorical cartoon that approximates a fact)
G
GKC
Guest
Well, there was the little set to around Ratramnus and then there was Berengarius, but that all got sorted out.
- Status