Is it ever okay to have an abortion?

  • Thread starter Thread starter specifics
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
That is the most outrageous thing I’ve heard. You should feel awkward.

That was never going to be my next line.

I shoudn’t have gotten involved in this thread. Unlike that poor ole mother with a deadly pregnancy - I’m leaving.
Is it so outrageous? Is not sex (there, I said it again :rolleyes: 😊 ) a choice the woman made? Actions have consequences! If someone is going to make such a decision, they must also be able to deal with the consequences!:mad:

I think I’m being too general, though. I’ll try to go a little more specific…
Who are we to say that one life must end for another to continue? Can we really choose between the mother and the child? If the complications from the pregnancy will kill both, then we must still follow God’s commandment. Thou shalt not kill!
 
what when a husband and a doctor have to make a choice… a mother of three will die and probably her child as well. There is higher chance of survival in the mother than the child…
will they 1) refuse to make a decision or 2) try to save the child although this is more complicated and the mother will die or 3) save the mothers life and let the baby die.
Sometimes life is not black-and-white and there are no easy solutions.
How can we say that a woman’s life is less precious than her child’s?
I find it a bit problematic that we but exceptions to behaviour like Gianna Molla up on an extreme pedistal and make that the norm for all behaviour… there may be heroism in her case that would not apply to another situation, another life.
Absolutism in formalistic moral law is problematic… we are living under the freedom of the Gospel, not under the old law or indeed any law. The law of love…you may say… yes, we are slaves… but free slaves under Christ.
 
what when a husband and a doctor have to make a choice… a mother of three will die and probably her child as well. There is higher chance of survival in the mother than the child…
will they 1) refuse to make a decision or 2) try to save the child although this is more complicated and the mother will die or 3) save the mothers life and let the baby die.
Sometimes life is not black-and-white and there are no easy solutions.
How can we say that a woman’s life is less precious than her child’s?
I find it a bit problematic that we but exceptions to behaviour like Gianna Molla up on an extreme pedistal and make that the norm for all behaviour… there may be heroism in her case that would not apply to another situation, another life.
Absolutism in formalistic moral law is problematic… we are living under the freedom of the Gospel, not under the old law or indeed any law. The law of love…you may say… yes, we are slaves… but free slaves under Christ.
No one is saying these decisions are easy. If it helps, let me share three personal experiences.

With our youngest, my wife had a high risk, problematic pregnancy. However, she was a rock. Our son is severely disabled, but is also one of the bright lights in my life. But I am clay, had the decision fallen into my hands and my wife’s life been at stake, I cannot, with honesty, say I would not have wavered.

later our oldest daughter was given an early diagnosis for an ectopic pregnancy. Inspired by her faith and the example of her mother and brother, she insisted on waiting. The pressure she received from the medical community was tremendous. I also was not very supportive, at least at first. This was my baby girl, with her whole life still ahead of her. There would be other pregnancies… But she convinced me she was acting on her faith and that I could stand with her or against her, but I wasn’t going to change her mind. So I stood with her. Though there were some complications, the pregnancy self resolved. She has since made me a grandparent.

On the flip side we met a young couple through our work on helmet liners and body armor. Unfortunately, the young man was killed in Iraq. When his widow was diagnosed with an ectopic pregnancy shortly after (they are a lot more common than you might think, and the incidence rate has been rising), she spent a lot of time with us and our daughter. Ultimately, she decided that she could not stand the thought of not being around long enough to tell her other children, who were/are quite young, about a father never really known.

So she opted for MTX, her least intrussive option, and simply accepted that she had, in her own heart, committed the sin of procurring a direct abortion. She subsequently reconciled with her faith and continues to be a loving and devoted mom and, from all outward appearances, a fine Christian.

Frankly, I see more in common with all three of these women than differences. God does not expect us to be perfect, we are simply asked to try. And, when we inevitably falter, accept responsibility for our acts so that we can be forgiven.
 
By the way the OP said a pregnancy already four months along so were are not even talking about an eptopic pregnancy. The answer is NO -it is not ok.
Removing the tube in an eptopic pregnancy is not the same as having an abortion -so the answer to the abortion question is still NO.
 
later our oldest daughter was given an early diagnosis for an ectopic pregnancy. Inspired by her faith and the example of her mother and brother, she insisted on waiting. The pressure she received from the medical community was tremendous. I also was not very supportive, at least at first. This was my baby girl, with her whole life still ahead of her. There would be other pregnancies… But she convinced me she was acting on her faith and that I could stand with her or against her, but I wasn’t going to change her mind. So I stood with her. Though there were some complications, the pregnancy self resolved. She has since made me a grandparent.
Thank you for sharing. I think this is a wonderful example of prudent action and faith in the providence of the Lord. It seems society is all too eager to let people rush into imprudent decisions about life and death.
 
That is the most outrageous thing I’ve heard. You should feel awkward.

That was never going to be my next line.

I shoudn’t have gotten involved in this thread. Unlike that poor ole mother with a deadly pregnancy - I’m leaving.
And what deadly pregnancy was that? Can you describe it for us?
 
Removing the tube in an eptopic pregnancy is not the same as having an abortion -so the answer to the abortion question is still NO.
It most assuredly is an abortion, the question is rather or not it is direct. Many are certain that the answer is no, but the Church has refused to give an opinion on the application of double effect.

Also, the ‘remove the tube’ distinction is largely now moot in practice. Catholic hospitals use now use chemical abortificants as well.
 
SoCalRC.
I am not sure what you mean by “you would not have wavered”… what was it that you think was the obvious right answer in such a situation? I don’t think there necessarily is a right answer. Life of mother and life of child are of equal value in God’s eyes and whereas He lets us be tested we are never the less under the fallen nature’s flesh… nature that has death in it and sometimes there is nothing holily natural about the horrific choices we encounter…

About your daughter… Most people dont know if they have an ectopic pregnancy until they are at the hospital in a dangerous situation. My own sister had such a pregnancy. the situation was very grave… and she was rushed to the hospital and had the baby removed whereas the very talented physician also succeeded in saving her tube… Which she was very thankful for. Later a bunch of “holy Catholics” claimed that she had thereby sinned unintentionally. She was totally depressed for some days and kept saying: “they dont know what they are saying”. I agree with her on that.
As for the woman you describe… I don’t think her case is black or white either… jeapardizing your own life as a human in order to save someone else who has only a few days or weeks to live… It does not make sense to me and I will probably never change my mind on that. My reason together with the law of Christ which is love tells me something and I must follow my conscience and God more than people.

May I suggest that our logic may be effected by the culture and faith traditions we were brought up in and that there might not be always one answer to every situation…
 
By the way the OP said a pregnancy already four months along so were are not even talking about an eptopic pregnancy. The answer is NO -it is not ok.
Removing the tube in an eptopic pregnancy is not the same as having an abortion -so the answer to the abortion question is still NO.
I noticed that too. I asked if the premise of the thread applied.

I got no response from the OP.

Who it appears, has long abandoned this thread.
 
Let’s make sure to get one thing straight, so as not to give the wrong idea to people seeking answers. The Church is very, very clear that abortion is a horrid, evil act, and with Her I agree wholeheartedly. But there is only one situation where an abortion would be “allowed.” I say that in quotations because the Church is not in favor of the abortion, but that it must be done to reach a greater good, as I will show.

It has to do with what is called “double effect.” Let’s say a mother is pregnant and also has uterine cancer, and it’s going to kill her before the baby can be born. If the mother does nothing, both she and the baby will die. She can only live if she has a hysterectomy, but this would result in the death of the baby.

Now, the Church leaves this sort of situation up to the mother. She can justify her position (the Church, not the mother) by the ethical notion of “double effect.” In short, it means that in order to attain a certain good, an evil must be done, but you do not WILL the evil to be done - you do not want the abortion to be necessary. Also, the good attained must be greater than the evil done. So, while the baby must die as a result of the hysterectomy, the mother will live (as opposed to both of them dying). This is VERY different from almost every abortion done in the world - these cases are very rare, but they cannot be dismissed with a simple “no!”

Again, the Church is not OK with the abortion - she will tolerate it in this circumstance because that evil is not implicitly willed and because without it, a greater good cannot be reached. It is a terrible tragedy, but the Church, in all Her wisdom, is not reduced to legalism. To say that the Church says no to abortion no matter what is to reduce Her to a legalistic entity without the prudential wisdom to confront difficult ethical issues. And that’s not our Church at all!
 
It most assuredly is an abortion, the question is rather or not it is direct. Many are certain that the answer is no, but the Church has refused to give an opinion on the application of double effect.

Also, the ‘remove the tube’ distinction is largely now moot in practice. Catholic hospitals use now use chemical abortificants as well.
I’m not convinced, with all due respect, that this supposed absence of opinion on double effect (it’s not that I don’t believe you I just don’t know for certain, this is new to me) is the reason that many Catholic hospitals actively participate in direct abortions.
 
Let me respond a step at a time.
I am not sure what you mean by “you would not have wavered”… what was it that you think was the obvious right answer in such a situation?
Whenever you are entrusted with medical decision making authority for another adult I believe you have a duty to try reflect their wishes, not your own. My wife’s faith was unwavering and she had exacted a promise from me. I am being honest in that I don’t know if I would have kept it, but it seems pretty clear to me that, regardless of the merit of my motives, I might have broken faith on several fronts.
I don’t think there necessarily is a right answer. Life of mother and life of child are of equal value in God’s eyes and whereas He lets us be tested we are never the less under the fallen nature’s flesh… nature that has death in it and sometimes there is nothing holily natural about the horrific choices we encounter…
I gave several examples with different decisions and outcomes. In all cases, I think the women involved followed their hearts and faith. I have nothing but love and concern for all of them.
About your daughter… Most people dont know if they have an ectopic pregnancy until they are at the hospital in a dangerous situation. My own sister had such a pregnancy. the situation was very grave… and she was rushed to the hospital and had the baby removed whereas the very talented physician also succeeded in saving her tube… Which she was very thankful for. Later a bunch of “holy Catholics” claimed that she had thereby sinned unintentionally. She was totally depressed for some days and kept saying: “they dont know what they are saying”. I agree with her on that.
There is a lot in that paragraph, but let me start by saying that I am thankful that your sister survived with minimal ill effects.

Second, ectopic pregnancies are quite common (and becoming even more so as viral related tubal scaring becomes more common) so it would be in a persons best interest to take one of the simple tests now available should they knowingly become pregnant. It also would behoove most sexually active woman to be very diligent about their own reproductive health. That is, rather they use NFP, or reject the church’s teaching and use contraception, planning is probably prudent. I do not know about your sister’s situation, but you do not want to learn that you are pregnant in an ER.

Now, most moralists would argue that your sister did procure a direct abortion. In order to save the tube, the surgeon would have had to act directly on the fetal tissue. I cannot read hearts and minds, so I cannot say what the motives of the Catholics who informed you of this were. I could be that they were merely trying to be helpful, pointing out what the Church teaches so that your sister could seek proper reconcilliation.

Remember, even in an extreme case like abortion, which carries an automatic sentence of ex-communication, the purpose of the punishment is to be instructive, not punative. Most bishops have empowered the priests under them to lift first time offenses for abortion.

However, if the motives of the people you seem to hold ill will towards was to be somehow judgemental or hurtful, I would agree that the behavior seems less than Christian. I suspect that at least some would have suggested that chosing salpingostomy vs. salpingectomy (rather or not the tube was partially removed or just the fetus from the tube) would have made a moral difference.

Personally, I think this is non sense. The Church has never officially endorsed this distinction and it strikes me as sophistry. The diagnosis is the same, the prognosis is the same, and the key aspect of the treatements are the same. Fetal death is the ‘cure’, so why not just accept that instead of compounding a difficult situation with partial sterilization (another potentially sinful act) unless it is absolutely necessary?

But people remember what they learned years ago in Catholic High School. But the distinction is now largely ignored in Catholic hospitals.

Regarding feeling bad. I am not sure what to say. We are supposed to try not to sin. When we fail, we are supposed to feel remorse and ask for forgiveness. Even when no sin is obviously involved, like my daughter’s case, grieving would be expected if a person accepts the Church’s teaching on the human person.

cont.
 
As for the woman you describe… I don’t think her case is black or white either… jeapardizing your own life as a human in order to save someone else who has only a few days or weeks to live… It does not make sense to me and I will probably never change my mind on that. My reason together with the law of Christ which is love tells me something and I must follow my conscience and God more than people.
I’m glad you used the word “jeapardizing”. A tubal rupture is potentially very serious because of the possibility of internal bleeding. Once there is bleeding inside the body cavity all kinds of complications can arise, like organ failure and hemorrhagic shock. But with prompt medical attention it is not nec. fatal (I am not a doctor, but I spent two years treating extreme cases of such trauma in '68 and '69).

However, try to step back and look at the Church teachings in context. We believe that every human person is a unique creation by God, infinitely loved by our creator. The distinctions we place between ourselves, even ‘good’ and ‘bad’, are largely moot and we are discouraged from even applying them in the Gospels. The best test of this is not to look at, say, one’s horrible boss and say ‘there is a fellow child of God’, but to look at the most extreme cases, like a defensely child or an adult in a vegative state.

Having a disabled son probably makes this an easier teaching for me. By most standards, my son would be a societal ‘failure’, but he loves and is loved and hasn’t a mean bone in his body. So on a standard of being a worthwhile human being, he is well ahead of many of the people I interact with every day. Having stretched me understanding of what can and cannot be a worthwile life, it is easy for me to stretch it again, to the comatose or a developing fetus.

However, it is extremely difficult not to rank, or value, our fellow human beings. So your attitude about your sister versus a tiny creation seemingly doomed from conception is understandable. But also understand that the Church does not act in a vaccuum.

For most of 1800 years the Church was seemingly ambivilent about abortions to save the life of the mother. But the change was not random. At the same time the Church took an active stance, we were seeing the rapid growth of a “Eugenics” movement, particularly here in the US. Why should a society be burneded with the disabled or genetically defective? Destroy the monsters at birth, sterilize the ones that are missed…

One small benefit of the horror of Nazism and the holocaust is that it drove eugnenics out of fashion here in the US (though we were still forcibly sterilizing people until the 1970s).

Similiarly, look at the timing of the Second Vatican Council’s more extensive interest in fetal life. Do you think it is a coincidence that the Wistar Institute had just started cultivating vaccines in human diploid cells taken from an aborted fetus?
May I suggest that our logic may be effected by the culture and faith traditions we were brought up in and that there might not be always one answer to every situation…
I don’t think that there is a problem with my reason or logic. I am a willing Roman Catholic. That is, I willingly defer to the Church as much as possible. If I have a true crisis of concience, I would do my best to follow Christ, but when it comes to most matters, I try to obey on principle. Generally, but not always, I find that I come to agree with the Church’s teaching in time. For example, I first enlisted in the USMC, then later realized that I needed to serve my country in a different way to remain true to my faith. Similiarly, I used to find Pope John Paul’s new perspective on the death penalty difficult, but have since concluded that the Church is correct, it is an extension of our fundemental pro life teaching.

Remember, the Church does not profess to provide an answer to every specific situation. But it does try to pressure us to make our decisions in the proper moral context. Think about it this way, you say you don’t see the point of risk and sacrifice for a fetus that faces of prognosis of death in a few weeks or few months (6 is the maximum documented) anyway. How is that argument any different from, say, expediting Grandma’s demise a few weeks or months and saving the family a tremendous burden?

Or, taking IDEA funding away from the disabled and spending it on school children who have dramatically better test scores since they clearly benefit more from academics?

I know you are not saying these things, I am just using hyperbole to make a point. The Church is not interferring with your decisions, but it wants you to make them, openly and knowingly, in a Christian context.

Peace.
 
I’m not convinced, with all due respect, that this supposed absence of opinion on double effect (it’s not that I don’t believe you I just don’t know for certain, this is new to me) is the reason that many Catholic hospitals actively participate in direct abortions.
I’m sorry, I am not sure I understand the question. Feel free to question my interpretations. I would not be the least bit offended. In fact, I appreciate people researching their Faith for themselves.

I am also not trying to pass judgement on the Hospitals. The doctors face potentially conflicting obligations. And some moralists do argue that the abortive procedures (or at least some of them) are not “direct”.

I am just saying that I have reached the conclussion that we are rationalizing something because we are still struggling with a difficult Church teaching.

I think it matters because I would, in fact, like the society I live in to be more pro life. And the first step towards convincing others is to take a hard look at ourselves. When we accept the reality that we, ourselves, procure abortions, we can speak to the rest of society as equals, which I believe is the beginning of true dialog.

And we do procure abortions. Even if we fully accept that abortions of medical necessity are not ‘direct’, 60% of the abortions in this country occur among women living at or near the poverty level and more than half are already mothers. As a consequence, blacks and hispanics are significantly over represented. That means that Christians and Catholics are over represented.

So I am not asking fellow Catholics to die. But I am asking them to view their tragic decisions in the same light as the woman who tragicly chooses death for the sake of feeding and caring for her other children. Without that, our dialogs sound more like the Pharisee and the Publican - sadly lacking in true compassion and love.
 
A few corrections of fact

The commandment is not properly translated “Thou shalt not kill.” It is “You shall not murder.” There is a difference.

To imply that an ectopic pregnancy is going to make it to a point where viable delivery is even remotely possible is inaccurate (that the fetus has a diagnosis of less than 6 months). The reality is that it going to become a problem much earlier than that, more along the lines of 5-8 weeks, definitely first trimester.

Whether one “removes the tube” in order to end the pregnancy or “delivers the child early” in a 4 month pregnancy (we are talking 16-20 weeks gestation) or prescribes medication in order to save the life of the mother, the action and the end result are exactly the same —a dead child. Period. No other possible option. It is an abortion. A miscarriage is a spontaneous abortion.

To use euphemisms or to pretend that there is some “other possible treatment” that will result in a different option or that there is even an infinitesimal hope that the child will survive is simply playing with words in order not to take responsibility for a tragic but necessary action.

To equate these abortions with those done for the sake of convenience is also rather ridiculous, but the fact remains that both situations fit the definition of abortion: " the termination of a pregnancy after, accompanied by, resulting in, or closely followed by the death of the embryo or fetus" (Merriam Webster online).

“Secondly the mother did have a defense. She chose to have sex (whenever I say it, I feel so awkward… ) and must be able to deal with the consequences.”

More than half of the known ectopic pregnancies occur in women with no known risk factors and they occur in women who are perfectly legally and sacramentally married as well as in others. Are you then advocating that married women should not engage in sex in order to defend themselves from the possibility of having an ectopic pregnancy? Well, that would certainly work, but it wouldn’t do much for the perpetuation of the species.
 
KarenNC.
I am right behind you… I second your logic… well said sister …
 
The commandment is not properly translated “Thou shalt not kill.” It is “You shall not murder.” There is a difference.
I’m not sure what brought that up (perhaps I missed a post), but Catholic Catachism attempts to explain intent. For example, the Catholic Encyclopedia entry:

newadvent.org/cathen/04153a.htm
The precepts which follow are meant to protect man in his natural rights against the injustice of his fellows.
  • His life is the object of the Fifth;
  • the honour of his body as well as the source of life, of the Sixth;
  • his lawful possessions, of the Seventh;
  • his good name, of the Eighth;
  • And in order to make him still more secure in the enjoyment of his rights, it is declared an offense against God to desire to wrong him, in his family rights by the Ninth;
  • and in his property rights by the Tenth.
Making a distinction like you describe is essential to adopt, say, an Augustine concept of Just War, but the centrality of the human person and his (or her) fundemental rights from God is an extremely important concept in our Faith, not to be abridged lightly.
To imply that an ectopic pregnancy is going to make it to a point where viable delivery is even remotely possible is inaccurate (that the fetus has a diagnosis of less than 6 months). The reality is that it going to become a problem much earlier than that, more along the lines of 5-8 weeks, definitely first trimester.
Did anyone here imply otherwise?
Whether one “removes the tube” in order to end the pregnancy or “delivers the child early” in a 4 month pregnancy (we are talking 16-20 weeks gestation) or prescribes medication in order to save the life of the mother, the action and the end result are exactly the same —a dead child. Period. No other possible option. It is an abortion. A miscarriage is a spontaneous abortion.
I would agree, but there is division among Church moralists. Basically along the same lines as the distinction you noted, killing vs. murder (Double Effect is often cited, but it is not the only theological argument made).
To use euphemisms or to pretend that there is some “other possible treatment” that will result in a different option or that there is even an infinitesimal hope that the child will survive is simply playing with words in order not to take responsibility for a tragic but necessary action.
Yes, that sounds dangerously stupid. But I have not seen that proposed. My daughter elected to wait and see rather than accept, to her, the sin of direct abortion. There were no dillusions about the risks or the probable outcomes. It was an act of faith and she was willing to accept serious consequences.

One can disagree, but to assert that one’s own moral decisions are inherently superior to anothers is a form of hubris normally rejected in Christianity.
To equate these abortions with those done for the sake of convenience is also rather ridiculous, but the fact remains that both situations fit the definition of abortion: " the termination of a pregnancy after, accompanied by, resulting in, or closely followed by the death of the embryo or fetus" (Merriam Webster online).
I don’t recall anyone equating them, but if that is another straw man you feel compelled to knock down, be my guest.
More than half of the known ectopic pregnancies occur in women with no known risk factors and they occur in women who are perfectly legally and sacramentally married as well as in others. Are you then advocating that married women should not engage in sex in order to defend themselves from the possibility of having an ectopic pregnancy? Well, that would certainly work, but it wouldn’t do much for the perpetuation of the species.
Alas, that is factually inaccurate. The majority of ectopic pregnancies in the US now occur in relationship to variations of PID and fertility treatments, both of which have their own moral implications. But without judgement, it does leave us with a situation where the NIH places the incidence now at somewhere between 1:40 and 1:100 pregnancies, and accounting for 9% of all pregnancy related maternal deaths in the US.

The overwhelming majority of those deaths (about 1 for every 100,000 live births) were unexpected pregnancies. Given that there is a possibility of death and sterility and the treatment is an abortion, it seems like it would be prudent to use family planning rather one is in the Sacrament of Marriage or not. In a family planning situation (natural or otherwise) pegnancies are generally looked for. Early detection of pregnancy also affords an opportunity for early detection of an ectopic pregnancy. This gives more time for consideration and more options than an emergency room.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top