Is it ever okay to lie?

[Nov1411]

Is it ever better to tell a lie than it is to tell the truth? Were you ever in a position where you felt that lying was the right thing to do?

If you know the truth will hurt someone more than a lie, is that still sinful? I am going to ask my confessor about this, but I was just curious what you all had to say.

 

[dconklin]

Honesty is the best policy. Hiding painful news from someone does not get rid of the bad news.

 

[R_C]

The Eight Commandment, the Church teaches, “forbids misrepresenting the truth in our relations with others.”

“A lie consists in speaking a falsehood with the intention of deceiving.” The Lord denounces lying as the work of the devil …] To lie is to speak or act against the truth in order to lead someone into error.

Of course, this is the definition. Now we know that no sin is the same…:

The gravity of a lie is measured against the nature of the truth it deforms, the circumstances, the intentions of the one who lies, and the harm suffered by its victims.

If a lie in itself only constitutes a venial sin, it becomes mortal when it does grave injury to the virtues of justice and charity.

Now notice this statement:

The deliberate intention of leading a neighbor into error by saying things contrary to the truth constitutes a failure in justice and charity.

A failure in justice and charity…and I think charity is your main concern, for it is related to the feelings and to the idea of hurting others. Even if we feel ready to bear sufferings and pain, we may not feel ready to cause them on someone. The shortcut of lying - which the devil promptly recommends - sounds very tempting…

Instead, the Church, in that section of the Catechism, has a very interesting statement:

This requires us in concrete situations to judge whether or not it is appropriate to reveal the truth to someone who asks for it.

This is even confirmed “in brief”:

The golden rule helps one discern, in concrete situations, whether or not it would be appropriate to reveal the truth to someone who asks for it.

If you know the truth will hurt someone more than a lie, is that still sinful?

To lie, yes. But sometimes *revealing *the truth can also be…!

 

[SMHW]

I can’t think of any case where direct lying is OK.

But there are times when withholding information is permissible. You don’t always have to give someone the answer to a question just because he asks you for it. And sometimes you need to figure out how to say, “I won’t tell you,” in a diplomatic way. (Of course if you are the type of person who usually tells others more than they want to know about what you are doing, feeling, and thinking they will probably already have figured out what you aren’t telling them.)

 

[Angelsflight]

I usually won’t lie if its just to save myself from something I might have done wrong. i would rather be honest and face the music.

If its to keep from hurting someones feelings…I do lie sometimes.

“Does this make me look fat?” Absolutely not…

 

[Angel_Bradford]

Is it ever better to tell a lie than it is to tell the truth? Were you ever in a position where you felt that lying was the right thing to do?

If you know the truth will hurt someone more than a lie, is that still sinful? I am going to ask my confessor about this, but I was just curious what you all had to say.

Let’s pretend that it is 1938 and you live in Germany. A Jewish family ask you if they can hide in your attic and you let them, knowing what is going on. One night, a group of German soldiers knocks on your door and ask you if you know where any Jews are hiding. Do you think it would be a sin to lie?

 

[englishredrose]

Its never okay to lie

But we can find ways of making sure the truth don’t hurt too much if its going to hurt.

But we kid ourselves on very nicely about its going to hurt them xyz. If we don’t say it then its not lying. all lovelly little devil trappings for us. But we play into them because its more comfortable all round and gentler to the ones we hurt for lying. If none of us ever lied then we be all better for hearing the unwanteds about ourselves. But no, most of us lie because we care for one another etc. But it doesn’t make it ok in the sense of sin-moral sin

 

[WoundedIcon]

I’ve heard that the closest you can come to lying in Catholic morality is by making what is called a mental reservation. There are two kinds, broad and narrow. A broad mental reservation is akin to what St. Raphael did when he appeared to Tobit after his prayer and told him that he was a person whose name meant “God hears” in Hebrew. Not technically a lie and not a sin. Now, a narrow mental reservation is a sin. It’s like having mom ask you “Were you at your boyfriend’s house?” and you say “Well, technically we were outside the door…” In other words, being evasive. I don’t remember where I got this, but I’m sure a Google search will show it.

 

[SMHW]

This always needs to be made clear when we discuss lying… Some people have a right to “true information” and some don’t.

We may never lie but we are not obliged to *tell *the truth to people who don’t “own” that truth. If someone “owns” that truth then failing to tell that truth is also a form of lying.

We tend to think that “Lying” is a sin against the commandment to avoid bearing false witness. Some lies are. But others are violations against the commandment to refrain from stealing.

Cases:

1. A parent asks a minor child where he has been: The parent “owns” that knowledge. The child needs to tell where he has been. Both deliberately giving false information and withholding information would be sinful deceits.
2. A friend asks what you think of her outfit: Whether you like the outfit or not, the friend does not “own” your opinion of it. A deliberate false answer would be a lie. But you are free to avoid answering the question.
3. A Nazi soldier asks if any Jews are hiding nearby: The soldier may have a legal right to the information but not a moral right. The person asked cannot directly lie but again he is free to avoid answering. He might also answer while making a mental reservation; that is to say he answers in what is a technically “true” but misdirecting fashion while he mentally adds the reserved information the soldier hoped to acquire.
4. A young person discovers some damaging personal information about an acquaintance who is trying out for the same available spot on a committee as is the young person’s friend. The young person divulges the information (which has no real bearing on the committee) in hopes that the selection committee will choose his friend rather than the acquaintance: In this case the young person is using “the Truth” to harm another.

 

[Evan]

There is an excellent discussion near the end of Cardinal Neumann’s book “apologia pro vita sua” where he defends himself against the charge of lying. I believe he said you can lie to one who has no right to the knowledge or who is not mentally capable of dealing with the truth (young and mentally infirm).

I may be phrasing this wrong OR there may be a longer list. But it’s a good read. You can get a free copy here gutenberg.org/ebooks/19690

 

[Nov1411]

Thanks for the replies!

To lie, yes. But sometimes *revealing *the truth can also be…!

Could you give an example where revealing the truth would be a sin?

I’ve heard that the closest you can come to lying in Catholic morality is by making what is called a mental reservation.

I found this newadvent.org/cathen/10195b.htm but I’m sort of tired right now, so I didn’t completely understand it. I’ll try reading it again tomorrow.

In other words, being evasive.

So being evasive is bad?

We tend to think that “Lying” is a sin against the commandment to avoid bearing false witness. Some lies are. But others are violations against the commandment to refrain from stealing.

That’s interesting. I’ve never thought of it that way.

But it’s a good read.

Thanks, Evan! I’ll check it out

 

[Bill_Martin]

If I was hiding Jews and the SS came by asking if there were Jews in my house, I would absolutely lie. In fact, I contend that it would be immoral to tell the truth in that situation.

 

[Nov1411]

If I was hiding Jews and the SS came by asking if there were Jews in my house, I would absolutely lie. In fact, I contend that it would be immoral to tell the truth in that situation.

Bill, in this link- newadvent.org/cathen/10195b.htm it says:

According to the common Catholic teaching it is never allowable to tell a lie, not even to save human life.

Not really sure if I agree with that, though.

 

[Bill_Martin]

Bill, in this link- newadvent.org/cathen/10195b.htm it says:

Not really sure if I agree with that, though.

I don’t think that site is correct at all. The Catechism says this

IV. Respect for the Truth

2488 The right to the communication of the truth is not unconditional. Everyone must conform his life to the Gospel precept of fraternal love. This requires us in concrete situations to judge whether or not it is appropriate to reveal the truth to someone who asks for it.

2489 Charity and respect for the truth should dictate the response to every request for information or communication. the good and safety of others, respect for privacy, and the common good are sufficient reasons for being silent about what ought not be known or for making use of a discreet language the duty to avoid scandal often commands strict discretion. No one is bound to reveal the truth to someone who does not have the right to know it.282

 

[Nov1411]

I would advise doing a search on the forums and there should be plenty of discussions and opinions to read!

This is a topic that can be hotly debated…is it a lie to tell your children about Santa? If you work for the CIA and are involved in espionage is it a sin to lie? What if you are hiding Jews in your home during World War II could you lie to the Nazis? Is it lying when an actor is on stage and says his lines that are not truthful for him? If you are a supervisor and know someone is going to be let go but are told not to tell them, are you lying if they ask you if you know anything and you say “no”?

It can make for interesting reading and thought that is for sure. Blessings on your day.

Thanks, Monica! Blessings to you, too

I don’t think that site is correct at all. The Catechism says this

That site was the 2nd thing that came up when I Googled “mental reservation.” The 1st site was Wikipedia, and I wasn’t really going to use that as a source But I agree. That did seem “off.”

 

[Evan]

I remember Cardinal Neumann in his book also wrote about telling Jokes. Is it ok to lie when telling a joke.

Here’s a story my dad told. Did he need to go to confession after this?

I was in a bar and there was a braggart there always telling about the big fish he would catch. So one time I told how, years ago my dad and I were out fishing in the Pacific at night by lantern. We had caught several big fish, but a really huge one came by and overturned the boat. I’d never seen a fish so large. Well, last night we were out fishing again and caught ahold of that fish. He ran out the line, we pulled him in, back and forth for hours. Finally, we got him to the shore and he had expired. When we gutted him, there was the lantern from that previous fishing trip, inside his stomach. AND IT WAS STILL LIT!!!

So the braggart says “Are you callin’ me a liar?” I answered, “No, but if you take 18 inches off that fish you caught, I’l blow out the Lantern”

None of that happened. Is it a lie? Is there a mental reservation? Is it a sin?

If everything we say should be truth, this is a lie. But if the one you are speaking to, knows you are not relaying truth, then it is not a lie. So this, at least, is one situation where you do not need to tell the truth.

 

[chosen_people]

The Eight Commandment, the Church teaches, “forbids misrepresenting the truth in our relations with others.”

Of course, this is the definition. Now we know that no sin is the same…:

Now notice this statement:

A failure in justice and charity…and I think charity is your main concern, for it is related to the feelings and to the idea of hurting others. Even if we feel ready to bear sufferings and pain, we may not feel ready to cause them on someone. The shortcut of lying - which the devil promptly recommends - sounds very tempting…

Instead, the Church, in that section of the Catechism, has a very interesting statement:

This is even confirmed “in brief”:

To lie, yes. But sometimes *revealing *the truth can also be…!

The ninth commandment “You shall not bear false witness against your fellow” or
לא תענה ברעך עד שקר
refers to giving false testimony in court and the Jewish sages have also seen this as prohibiting gossip and slander. It does not refer to lying in the simple sense of telling an untruth to another.

In a case where lying is necessary for the protection of a life, not only is it permissible to lie but the sin and the immoral act would be in not lying. Sanctity of life overrides any and all other considerations (except in the case of where the alternative is to commit murder, idolatry or incest). Torah teaches the worth of each and every individual and our mutual responsibility toward one another. Everyone has a purpose in the scheme of life and therefore a person saving even a single soul is as if they have saved an entire world.

The Pagan Hellenistic principal of maximizing personal benefit without regard to others (such as the concept that the person must worry only for their soul and it is not their fault if the Nazi murders the people whose hiding places the truthful" person revealed) is clearly rejected in Torah. As God commands in Leviticus 19 “you shall not stand aside while your fellows blood is shed” and “you shall love your fellow as yourself”.

Likewise, both in the Torah and Talmud, we see that in cases of keeping family tranquility “shalom bayit”, brutal honesty is not demanded. A husband who responds diplomatically to his wife’s question “does this dress make me look fat?”, in a way that spares her feelings, again has committed no sin but has acted properly.

 

[Nov1411]

If everything we say should be truth, this is a lie. But if the one you are speaking to, knows you are not relaying truth, then it is not a lie. So this, at least, is one situation where you do not need to tell the truth.

Good point. Oh, and good story, by the way

The ninth commandment “You shall not bear false witness against your fellow” or
לא תענה ברעך עד שקר
refers to giving false testimony in court and the Jewish sages have also seen this as prohibiting gossip and slander. It does not refer to lying in the simple sense of telling an untruth to another.

In a case where lying is necessary for the protection of a life, not only is it permissible to lie but the sin and the immoral act would be in not lying. Sanctity of life overrides any and all other considerations (except in the case of where the alternative is to commit murder, idolatry or incest). Torah teaches the worth of each and every individual and our mutual responsibility toward one another. Everyone has a purpose in the scheme of life and therefore a person saving even a single soul is as if they have saved an entire world.

The Pagan Hellenistic principal of maximizing personal benefit without regard to others (such as the concept that the person must worry only for their soul and it is not their fault if the Nazi murders the people whose hiding places the truthful" person revealed) is clearly rejected in Torah. As God commands in Leviticus 19 “you shall not stand aside while your fellows blood is shed” and “you shall love your fellow as yourself”.

Likewise, both in the Torah and Talmud, we see that in cases of keeping family tranquility “shalom bayit”, brutal honesty is not demanded. A husband who responds diplomatically to his wife’s question “does this dress make me look fat?”, in a way that spares her feelings, again has committed no sin but has acted properly.

Thanks for the reply!

 

[Facite]

From Faith Explained by Leo J. Trese, "…there is no such thins as “a little white lie.” Moral evil, even the moral evil of a venial sin, is greater than any possible physical evil. It would not be permissible for me to commit even a venial sin in order to save the whole world from destruction… Neither am I obliged to tell all of the truth. If someone asks me how much money I’ve got ( I suspect he wants to make a touch) and tell him that I’ve got five dollars when actually I have fifty, I tell no lie. I have got five dollars; I just don’t tell him about the other forty-five. Obviously, however, it would be a lie to say that I have fifty when I have only five.

So, this means that we can NEVER tell a lie. No matter how good the outcome may be, a lie must never be told. The ends do not justify the means. You can never do evil to accomplish a good outcome, even if the whole world is at stake. This goes with other things also. You may never commit something sinful, under no circumstances! Don’t do it!!

 

[hannajomar]

Quote:
From Faith Explained by Leo J. Trese, "…there is no such thins as “a little white lie.” Moral evil, even the moral evil of a venial sin, is greater than any possible physical evil. It would not be permissible for me to commit even a venial sin in order to save the whole world from destruction… Neither am I obliged to tell all of the truth. If someone asks me how much money I’ve got ( I suspect he wants to make a touch) and tell him that I’ve got five dollars when actually I have fifty, I tell no lie. I have got five dollars; I just don’t tell him about the other forty-five. Obviously, however, it would be a lie to say that I have fifty when I have only five.

So, this means that we can NEVER tell a lie. No matter how good the outcome may be, a lie must never be told. The ends do not justify the means. You can never do evil to accomplish a good outcome, even if the whole world is at stake. This goes with other things also. You may never commit something sinful, under no circumstances! Don’t do it!!

This seems to be following the letter of the law, which may or may not be in the spirit of the law. If a legitimate debt collector is trying to negotiate a settlement with me. If I tell them I have $5 when I have $25 total, that is an attempt to deceive the collector. While may be I didn’t technically tell a lie, it is deceit with the intention of benefiting myself.