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fix
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Where do we get the idea that every urge must be expressed to be free or a complete person?
Is it fair to equate the public sin of Homosexulality with other sins?
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cynic
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Yet sexuality is a major component of ourselves. Acknowledging that your own is perverted can’t be fun. Most poeple marry and heterosexual urges are satisfied, there’s an appropriate expression for it, there isn’t for gays, unless they change overnight the only choice for them is celibacy
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Other_Eric
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Hi fix!
You seem to have a rather strange standard for the word “community.” I always thought that the word was neutral allowing for one to have both communities of criminals and communities of the virtuous. We could argue over whether the aims of a particular community were reasonable or just, but to try and attach an alien moral standard to the word is petty. Homosexuals clearly form a community. That they advocate in mass for a change in the law affirms this. It is a distinctly different community too.
Homosexuality is treated differently by the psychiatric, psychological, sociological, psychoanalytic and law enforcement communities. The volumes of research on the subject conducted by organizations such as NARTH has no parallel to the small Sexoholics Anonymous groups who deal with compulsive adulterers and fornicators. On the legal front, no one advocates for making a criminal offense of adultery with the sort of inflamed passion that one finds in proponents of laws that criminalize sodomy.
Homosexuality is treated much differently by orthodox, Catholic, sex educators. An educator will draw upon the emotional issues involved in premarital sex in his presentation to a group of teenagers. He will discuss how waiting for marriage eliminates the pressure of performance anxiety. He will refer to the immature physiology of a teenager and argue that their bodies are not ready for sex. For an audience composed of adults he will bring up the emotional security inherent in sexual expression within marriage. For an audience of homosexuals, none of these arguments will do, as there is no licit sexual expression that they can engage in. The educator therefore frames his talk entirely in terms of sexually transmitted diseases.
Homosexuality is treated differently by the Church. You may reject my premise, but the Catechism does not use the word “trial” to refer to any offense against chastity save for homosexuality. I think that is instructive. I think it is also instructive that the Church’s own Courage ministry was formed primarily to assist homosexuals in living a chaste life because it was assumed that there were other avenues of support available to those who suffered from temptations to masturbation, adultery and fornication. If you believe that this is “’gay’ propaganda” and “a great disservice to the many men and women who suffer from all manner of afflictions,” then your problem is with the Magisterium, not me.
I posit that reason for all of this is because it is recognized that the experience homosexuality is different in some basic way. It has special, intrinsic challenges that other inclinations simply do not have. Sexual activity comes with a fairly strong emotional component. Not having sex at all therefore has an emotional impact upon a person. I doubt you would deny this unless you advocated for sexual expression divorced entirely from emotion.
This is not to parrot the gay activist and claim that a life without sex is substandard or that the effect would be psychic trauma. It is simply to acknowledge that the life of a homosexual attempting to live chastely is fraught with complications that will never present themselves for other disorders. He has to, for instance, second guess every friendship he engages in, withdraw from any intimacy with a member of his own gender and, if pursuing conversion therapy, he may even be asked to change the type of music he listens to and the ways in which he spends his recreation time.
Homosexuality is different and I see no way around this simple premise without developing blind spots and rewriting the English language. How many times has it been pointed out in these forums that there are no adulterers’ rights associations or fornicator equality collectives? Doesn’t the mere fact that homosexuals uniquely organize in this fashion suggest that there is something quite different to that disorder? If there is, then the Christian who honestly wishes to bring the homosexual to Christ must acknowledge it before he can evangelize competently.
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fix
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We must speak of authentic and normal sexuality for your argument to legitimate. Disordered desires should not have such an outlet.
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fix
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Other Eric:
I think until very recent times few would consider the term community as so plastic when applied to human relationships. In a pedantic sense “gays” may have some form of a community. Most people do not use the word community to mean anything so pejorative.
So? Many of these groups have a very incorrect appraoch.
I have nothing against NARTH and respect their contributions, but what is your point?
Adultery was illegal in most places for many years as was sodomy. That so many may not be as excercised is no measure of what should or should not be done.
I am sorry, what is the point?
You are reading more into it than necessary. Please provide references from the magisterium that says their trial is greater than any other trial.
This is a cmplete spin on what I said and what the Church teaches. That the Church has a ministry does not prove your point that homosexual conduct is more of cross than other problems humans face.
Ever hear of God’s grace?
What nonsense. There are heterosexuals in the same position. I am not saying it is easy, but I reject yout premise that their cross is heavier than others.
How much of life have you experienced? If you have lived long at all you would know these issues, and greater ones, face many folks every single day.
It says to me that part of their disorder is the need to draw attention to themselves constantly. Narcissism is a big part of their problem.
Evangelization may mean calling a spade a spade, getting authentic medical help, forming a proper spiritual life and focusing on others needs more than self.
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felra
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We each have our individual crosses to bear. I know of no one who is exempt. Having to develop self-mastery over sexual desire is not unique to the person of a predominately homosexual desire. The same can be said for any person with a disordered desire, temptation or inordinate attachment, whether married, single or avowed celibate. Our fallen human nature exposes everyone to the overlay of internal and external temptation. Christ required of His would be followers “Whoever wishes to come after me must deny himself, take up his cross, and follow me.” (Mark 8:34).
It is interesting to note that Jesus cited the rich as having the most difficult time entering the kingdom of God, not the person with the homosexual desire (Mark 10; 17-27). If anything, the person afflicted with a homosexual disordered desire is given a greater mercy from God to know clearly the bounds of sinful behavior. The rich can much more easily delude themselves to the exclusion of entering the kingdom of God.
Too bad that more folks are not directing those afflicted with homosexual desire to learn from how St. Paul’s transformed in Christ his ongoing “thorn in the flesh” affliction:
2 Corinthians**, *Chapter 12:7-10 “***Therefore, that I might not become too elated, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, an angel of Satan, to beat me, to keep me from being too elated. Three times I begged the Lord about this, that it might leave me, but he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for power is made perfect in weakness.” I will rather boast most gladly of my weaknesses, in order that the power of Christ may dwell with me. Therefore, I am content with weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions, and constraints, for the sake of Christ; for when I am weak, then I am strong.”
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fix
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Tell that to our world that over psychologizes every aspect of life. Can one group be so vexed that we all must stop everything and pay homage to their cross as if the rest of humanity is coasting along on easy street.
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Other_Eric
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Hi fix!
As I said before, the word “community” is merely meant to refer to any group of individuals who share a common interest. To add on a moral standard to the word is to rewrite English to suit your own ideology. “‘When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, ‘it means just what I choose it to mean – neither more nor less.’”
There are several cogent reasons for believing that the Church, and by extension the faithful, should treat the struggle of the homosexual as distinctly different from other inclinations to sin.
When St Paul writes that "if they cannot exercise self-control they should marry, for it is better to marry than to be on fire,” he refers to an institution not genuinely available to the homosexual who has no interest in a sexual partner of the opposite gender.
The Church has written that “In the pastoral field, these homosexuals must certainly be treated with understanding and sustained in the hope of overcoming their personal difficulties and their inability to fit into society. Their culpability will be judged with prudence.” She goes on to observe that “special concern and pastoral attention should be directed toward those who have this condition.” She speaks of dialogue with “homosexual persons, on discrimination and sensitivity toward them” in a way she does not for others inclined toward sexual sin. She says “in a particular way, we would ask the Bishops to support, with the means at their disposal, the development of appropriate forms of pastoral care for homosexual persons.”
Though you blithely dismiss it, the use of the word “trial” to refer to the homosexual condition is not something that can so easily be ignored. In every other circumstance where the Church uses the word, she uses it to refer to extraordinarily difficult circumstances beyond the norm faced by the individuals to whom it is meant to be applied. It is also silly to accuse me of reading too much into the Catechism because the language it uses was expressly focused on precisely because it was meant to be red into. This trial does not, I hasten to add, refer just to the inclination to sexual sin, but also the negative cultural opinions which encourage the faithful to avoid and ostracize the homosexual in favor of presumed personal security.
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fix
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You are not making a case that homosexuals have a trial greater than many, many other suffering souls. The Church does not say that and can’t say that. It is foolish. Many, many people have tremendous suffering, please do not make the homosexual “community” seem as if their condition is super human or a burden that is significantly different from many other trials we all have.
Again, I am not diminishing their problems, but you seem to want to diminish other folks suffering.
Again, I am not diminishing their problems, but you seem to want to diminish other folks suffering.
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