Is it good to abstain from reproduction?

[Qoeleth]

I am a celibate person, out of the orthodox Christian religious reasons. But I also have a perhaps non-orthodox belief that it is good not to reproduce.

My reason is this. It appears that earthly life is, on the whole, unpleasant and sad, and, even if by good fortune one escapes misery and disappointment, what is left is simply futility and boredom. “Man, born of woman, has few days, which are full of misery”. “Is not man’s time on earth like forced labour, like a slave sighing for the shade?” “Rather than the living, I salute the dead. But happier yet are those who have never been born, who never see the evil under the sun.”

In reproducing, it seems we are:

1. transmitting the stain of original sin. Although its eternal consequences are erased through baptism, it temporal consequences (i.e. the trials of the flesh) remain.
2. putting another soul at risk of eternal damnation.
3. perpetuating the suffering and vanity of this world.
4. exiling, through surrender to an act of lust, another soul from its true Heavenly home in the presence of God, to this valley of tears.

I know this is getting close to Catharism- but the fact is, if I reproduced, I would be overwhelmed by guilt. I don’t mean to be judgmental- I know parents ‘atone’ for the act of lust by taking on the responsibility of raising the child, and perhaps reproduce without understanding the full consequences, perhaps before they come to know that the life of this world is an empty vanity and a trial and an exile.

Any thoughts? Should more people take up celibacy, and save the souls of the unborn from the pain of this world, and the possibility of worse and endless pain in the world to come?

 

[LauraMajestic]

You know I’ve had sex before, only with one long term-partner mind you, and I see no problem in the activity. I really doubt that the Christian God would look down upon it in such a way. There are no references by Jesus that sex is a bad thing.

Obviously, I’m Atheist so I have a different perspective.

 

[Threep]

Are unborn souls in heaven already in the presence of God? They certainly aren’t enjoying the beatific vision at least, correct?

You know I’ve had sex before, only with one long term-partner mind you, and I see no problem in the activity. I really doubt that the Christian God would look down upon it in such a way. There are no references by Jesus that sex is a bad thing.

Obviously, I’m Atheist so I have a different perspective.

Of course sex isn’t a bad thing, but adultery certainly is.
[BIBLEDRB]Matt. 5:27-28[/BIBLEDRB]

 

[thinkandmull]

Gandhi gave up sex completely because he felt he couldn’t learn to be completely selfless otherwise. Different people, different callings. Some people get really cranky when they don’t get any…

 

[davidv]

I am a celibate person, out of the orthodox Christian religious reasons. But I also have a perhaps non-orthodox belief that it is good not to reproduce.

My reason is this. It appears that earthly life is, on the whole, unpleasant and sad, and, even if by good fortune one escapes misery and disappointment, what is left is simply futility and boredom. “Man, born of woman, has few days, which are full of misery”. “Is not man’s time on earth like forced labour, like a slave sighing for the shade?” “Rather than the living, I salute the dead. But happier yet are those who have never been born, who never see the evil under the sun.”

In reproducing, it seems we are:

1. transmitting the stain of original sin. Although its eternal consequences are erased through baptism, it temporal consequences (i.e. the trials of the flesh) remain.
2. putting another soul at risk of eternal damnation.
3. perpetuating the suffering and vanity of this world.
4. exiling, through surrender to an act of lust, another soul from its true Heavenly home in the presence of God, to this valley of tears.

I know this is getting close to Catharism- but the fact is, if I reproduced, I would be overwhelmed by guilt. I don’t mean to be judgmental- I know parents ‘atone’ for the act of lust by taking on the responsibility of raising the child, and perhaps reproduce without understanding the full consequences, perhaps before they come to know that the life of this world is an empty vanity and a trial and an exile.

Any thoughts? Should more people take up celibacy, and save the souls of the unborn from the pain of this world, and the possibility of worse and endless pain in the world to come?

My thought - The pains of this world are nothing compared to the glories of heaven. Why deny anyone this chance for true peace and happiness?

 

[Qoeleth]

Are unborn souls in heaven already in the presence of God? They certainly aren’t enjoying the beatific vision at least, correct?

No, but they are at peace (even if only the peace of not existing). Why force them to suffer the tribulation of this life, then the chance of the inconceivable torment of eternity in Hell?

Sure, they could obtain the Beautific Vision- but at the chance of ending up in Hell forever. Would you gamble on a roulette game, where if it is red, you get infinite joy, but if it is black, you get infinite pain? That’s assuming it’s 50/50. But Christ tells us many take the path to perdition, but only few find the path to life. So, in fact, the chance of eternal pain seems much greater than the chance of eternal joy.

Maybe some would take such a gamble. But, a more sane perspective would be simply to say, “No thank you. I will not take the chance. Please, let me just continue not existing here, with no hunger, no fear, no no oppression, no injustice, no tears, no pain.”

The point is, in reproducing, we are depriving the unborn of the right to choice, and forcing then into the this earthly exile.

 

[ExGratia]

I am a celibate person, out of the orthodox Christian religious reasons. But I also have a perhaps non-orthodox belief that it is good not to reproduce.

My reason is this. It appears that earthly life is, on the whole, unpleasant and sad, and, even if by good fortune one escapes misery and disappointment, what is left is simply futility and boredom. “Man, born of woman, has few days, which are full of misery”. “Is not man’s time on earth like forced labour, like a slave sighing for the shade?” “Rather than the living, I salute the dead. But happier yet are those who have never been born, who never see the evil under the sun.”

In reproducing, it seems we are:

1. transmitting the stain of original sin. Although its eternal consequences are erased through baptism, it temporal consequences (i.e. the trials of the flesh) remain.
2. putting another soul at risk of eternal damnation.
3. perpetuating the suffering and vanity of this world.
4. exiling, through surrender to an act of lust, another soul from its true Heavenly home in the presence of God, to this valley of tears.

I know this is getting close to Catharism- but the fact is, if I reproduced, I would be overwhelmed by guilt. I don’t mean to be judgmental- I know parents ‘atone’ for the act of lust by taking on the responsibility of raising the child, and perhaps reproduce without understanding the full consequences, perhaps before they come to know that the life of this world is an empty vanity and a trial and an exile.

Any thoughts? Should more people take up celibacy, and save the souls of the unborn from the pain of this world, and the possibility of worse and endless pain in the world to come?

The Shakers died out, and Manichaeism is a grave heresy. I do not know whether you are called to marriage, but I will pray that you see the joy around you! There is beauty in this world, and no eye has seen what God has planned for us next!

 

[Threep]

No, but they are at peace (even if only the peace of not existing). Why force them to suffer the tribulation of this life, then the chance of the inconceivable torment of eternity in Hell?

Sure, they could obtain the Beautific Vision- but at the chance of ending up in Hell forever. Would you gamble on a roulette game, where if it is red, you get infinite joy, but if it is black, you get infinite pain? That’s assuming it’s 50/50. But Christ tells us many take the path to perdition, but only few find the path to life. So, in fact, the chance of eternal pain seems much greater than the chance of eternal joy.

Maybe some would take such a gamble. But, a more sane perspective would be simply to say, “No thank you. I will not take the chance. Please, let me just continue not existing here, with no hunger, no fear, no no oppression, no injustice, no tears, no pain.”

The point is, in reproducing, we are depriving the unborn of the right to choice, and forcing then into the this earthly exile.

Because God made us to have a relationship with us. Not to lie asleep for all eternity ignoring Him. Besides, didn’t Christ suffer as well for our sake? Suffering brings reward.

Yeah our chances aren’t very good (I recall the words of one saint you said only three in a thousand people get into heaven).

Actually, leaving them unborn is depriving them of a choice. As far as God is concerned they are destined to come to rest in His bosom in the beatific vision. The choice is when we’re alive whether or not we will meet Him there. Our exile on earth is only temporary anyway.

In any case, I find your perspective to be very interesting. It’s sort of like a Catholic Nihilism. Why are you so focused upon the negative, rather than the great gift of life and the possibility of salvation that has been granted to us by God?

 

[Jade_Tiger]

What is this rubbish? There is nothing Christian in this perspective. God himself instructed us to “be fruitful and multiply;” He also looked upon this world and called it “good.” Also, the great St. Paul said that there is no sin in marrying. Nothing you have said bears the remotest resemblance to Catholic teaching.

 

[Robertanthony]

I am a celibate person, out of the orthodox Christian religious reasons. But I also have a perhaps non-orthodox belief that it is good not to reproduce.

My reason is this. It appears that earthly life is, on the whole, unpleasant and sad, and, even if by good fortune one escapes misery and disappointment, what is left is simply futility and boredom. “Man, born of woman, has few days, which are full of misery”. “Is not man’s time on earth like forced labour, like a slave sighing for the shade?” “Rather than the living, I salute the dead. But happier yet are those who have never been born, who never see the evil under the sun.”

In reproducing, it seems we are:

1. transmitting the stain of original sin. Although its eternal consequences are erased through baptism, it temporal consequences (i.e. the trials of the flesh) remain.
2. putting another soul at risk of eternal damnation.
3. perpetuating the suffering and vanity of this world.
4. exiling, through surrender to an act of lust, another soul from its true Heavenly home in the presence of God, to this valley of tears.

I know this is getting close to Catharism- but the fact is, if I reproduced, I would be overwhelmed by guilt. I don’t mean to be judgmental- I know parents ‘atone’ for the act of lust by taking on the responsibility of raising the child, and perhaps reproduce without understanding the full consequences, perhaps before they come to know that the life of this world is an empty vanity and a trial and an exile.

Any thoughts? Should more people take up celibacy, and save the souls of the unborn from the pain of this world, and the possibility of worse and endless pain in the world to come?

Yes for number 2). I’d say a 50/50 chance to either go to Hell or Heaven is about right. However you slice it, if you don’t reciprocate God’s love, which everyone has the freedom to do, then God is infinitely harsher then the harshest human being who has ever lived. As a side-note I suffer from depression, have a life that doesn’t meet much of my aspirations/desires, when depression hits harder, my 1st reaction is to deplore that I survived my mother’s womb or that I ever was conceived.

 

[Robertanthony]

What is this rubbish? There is nothing Christian in this perspective. God himself instructed us to “be fruitful and multiply;” He also looked upon this world and called it “good.” Also, the great St. Paul said that there is no sin in marrying. Nothing you have said bears the remotest resemblance to Catholic teaching.

He did but before a particular event happened? Can you guess what it was?

 

[Threep]

He did but before a particular event happened? Can you guess what it was?

Implying that God is constrained by “time”. God knew and still called everything He made “good”.

 

[R_C]

Please, Qoeleth, the fact that Christ, being God, was born into the flesh, dismantles this argument.

I understand the argument, I have had similar thoughts. Not all are called to married life. But per se it is not good to abstain from reproduction.

 

[samiam1611]

I am a celibate person, out of the orthodox Christian religious reasons. But I also have a perhaps non-orthodox belief that it is good not to reproduce.

Should more people take up celibacy, and save the souls of the unborn from the pain of this world, and the possibility of worse and endless pain in the world to come?

Yay another antinatalist! I am an antinatalist because

1. it is rude to make a new child when there are so many children who are given up for adoption or in foster care. Until every single unwanted child in the world is adopted by a loving family, no one should reproduce.
2. There’s too many people on this planet IMO. We are reproducing exponentially. Glad I won’t be around to see its demise nor will I have any descendants that will have to deal with it, but I still feel sorry for the earth and the animals whose habitats are being destroyed.
3. what you said. Life is hard, we shouldn’t subject more people to it. Your, and my, never-to- be born children are lucky to have us as non-parents. :whacky: Er…you know what I mean.

It’s a very unChristian viewpoint though. I mean that as a compliment BTW.

 

[HansTrappist]

I am a celibate person, out of the orthodox Christian religious reasons. But I also have a perhaps non-orthodox belief that it is good not to reproduce.

My reason is this. It appears that earthly life is, on the whole, unpleasant and sad, and, even if by good fortune one escapes misery and disappointment, what is left is simply futility and boredom. “Man, born of woman, has few days, which are full of misery”. “Is not man’s time on earth like forced labour, like a slave sighing for the shade?” “Rather than the living, I salute the dead. But happier yet are those who have never been born, who never see the evil under the sun.”

In reproducing, it seems we are:

1. transmitting the stain of original sin. Although its eternal consequences are erased through baptism, it temporal consequences (i.e. the trials of the flesh) remain.
2. putting another soul at risk of eternal damnation.
3. perpetuating the suffering and vanity of this world.
4. exiling, through surrender to an act of lust, another soul from its true Heavenly home in the presence of God, to this valley of tears.

I know this is getting close to Catharism- but the fact is, if I reproduced, I would be overwhelmed by guilt. I don’t mean to be judgmental- I know parents ‘atone’ for the act of lust by taking on the responsibility of raising the child, and perhaps reproduce without understanding the full consequences, perhaps before they come to know that the life of this world is an empty vanity and a trial and an exile.

Any thoughts? Should more people take up celibacy, and save the souls of the unborn from the pain of this world, and the possibility of worse and endless pain in the world to come?

You raise some age-old questions.

What it boils down to is that marriage is not for everyone and certainly not very many people in today’s culture take marriage seriously. Sex is seen as a right and a commodity and it is considered a recreational form of pleasure, the consequences of which can easily be disposed of if need be.

Certainly, one should consider all the contingencies and consequences of bringing children into the world. But one can not live in fear. My friends include a very well-to-do, physically attractive, physically-fit couple who brought a child into the world who was mentally handicapped. Had they not been grounded in the Faith they may have despaired at that point or considered an abortion. But they trusted in God and have had a very happy life full of Love, although not without difficulty.

Marriage is a Sacrament and Sex is sacred and when used properly makes the world a better place. It is those who have abused sex who have made society suffer.

As to your notion of refraining from procreation lest a child be born who possibly could go to hell, I would just say that this notion sort of borders on the mistaken notion of predestination. Also, God gives every soul the necessary graces it needs to get to heaven and gives every soul countless second chances to avoid hell, even right up to the last moments of one’s life. The souls in hell (if there are any and we hope that there are none there) want to be there, as crazy as that sounds, and have been given every opportunity while on earth to not end up there.

 

[Robertanthony]

Implying that God is constrained by “time”. God knew and still called everything He made “good”.

He said of King David that he was “a man after his own heart” when David was being faithful and a true man of God, not when he plotted to get the husband of the woman he had inseminated killed. I doubt God would still say that it’s good after the Fall, it was good before sin entered the world, God “hates” sin with a vengeance. Initially, everything was very good, i agree. After A&E sinned, things took a turn for the worse, Pandora’s box style.

 

[davidv]

Yes for number 2). I’d say a 50/50 chance to either go to Hell or Heaven is about right. However you slice it, if you don’t reciprocate God’s love, which everyone has the freedom to do, then God is infinitely harsher then the harshest human being who has ever lived. As a side-note I suffer from depression, have a life that doesn’t meet much of my aspirations/desires, when depression hits harder, my 1st reaction is to deplore that I survived my mother’s womb or that I ever was conceived.

Given that each of us is in complete control over where we spend eternity, there is no chance involved. Sin is a deliberate act, not an accident. Our destination in eternity is completely determined by our deliberate acts. Repent and love → heaven; or sin, apathy and unrepentance → hell.

 

[colmywaykurtz]

but the fact is, if I reproduced, I would be overwhelmed by guilt.

I have pondered, for years, the notion that some persons’ very genetic inheritances are of a kind that should not be continued—not for political or ideological reasons, but for spiritually sound reasons.

And I have often wondered if the very tendency to feel doubtful about the wisdom of reproduction might be symptomatic of such a makeup that should not be continued.

I feel glad that my genetic descendant(s) are here, but the thought about undesirable genetic lines has become unshakable for me in recent years. So, I very much understand where you are coming from on this.

 

[Elizium23]

Yay another antinatalist! I am an antinatalist because

1. it is rude to make a new child when there are so many children who are given up for adoption or in foster care. Until every single unwanted child in the world is adopted by a loving family, no one should reproduce.
2. There’s too many people on this planet IMO. We are reproducing exponentially. Glad I won’t be around to see its demise nor will I have any descendants that will have to deal with it, but I still feel sorry for the earth and the animals whose habitats are being destroyed.

It’s a very unChristian viewpoint though. I mean that as a compliment BTW.

Population control twaddle. This is the same line used by people who support homosexuality, unnatural “marriage”, abortion, contraception, anthropogenic global warming, and the like.

Look, if some of us decide not to reproduce, then someone else will. Then the latter cultures will be wiped off the face of the earth as their birth rate reduces below replacement and they vanish. Whereas those who take seriously God’s command to “be fruitful and multiply” will dominate the Earth. Hopefully among them will be faithful Catholics. I know and believe that it is not too late for us, because we were promised the Gates of Hell would not prevail against our Church.

 

[Qoeleth]

What is this rubbish? There is nothing Christian in this perspective. God himself instructed us to “be fruitful and multiply;” He also looked upon this world and called it “good.” Also, the great St. Paul said that there is no sin in marrying. Nothing you have said bears the remotest resemblance to Catholic teaching.

You seem to be very sure of yourself, and your interpretations. It must be nice to have such certainty. So, St. Francis of Assisi, St. John of the Cross, were all disobeyed God when they declined to reproduce?

But does not the Beloved Apostle say “You must not love this world, nor anything in this world”? And does not the sage Solomon say, “Rather than the living I salute the dead. Yet happier than both is he who has never been born?”

And St. Thomas a Kempis writes:
"Living on earth is truly a misery. The more a man desires spiritual life, the more bitter the
present becomes to him, because he understands better and sees more clearly the defects, the corruption of human nature. To eat and drink, to watch and sleep, to rest, to labor, and to be bound by other human necessities is certainly a great misery and affliction to the devout man, who would gladly be released from them and be free from all sin.

“But woe to those who know not their own misery, and greater woe to those who love this
miserable and corruptible life.”

Yes, God said things were good. But then the Fall. And so we are all born heirs to sinful Eve- in sin conceived, afflicted by the sinful, corrupt body, prone to sickness and temptation, until finally, tossed on the tempestuous waves of life’s ocean, we reach the harbour- but can we really be sure if it will be the harbour of Celestial Delights, or of Eternal Flames? Who knows?

Who knows?