Is it good to abstain from reproduction?

[Qoeleth]

Because God made us to have a relationship with us. Not to lie asleep for all eternity ignoring Him. Besides, didn’t Christ suffer as well for our sake? Suffering brings reward.

Yeah our chances aren’t very good (I recall the words of one saint you said only three in a thousand people get into heaven).

Actually, leaving them unborn is depriving them of a choice. As far as God is concerned they are destined to come to rest in His bosom in the beatific vision. The choice is when we’re alive whether or not we will meet Him there. Our exile on earth is only temporary anyway.

In any case, I find your perspective to be very interesting. It’s sort of like a Catholic Nihilism. Why are you so focused upon the negative, rather than the great gift of life and the possibility of salvation that has been granted to us by God?

Catholic nihilism- I would agree with that.

While a single one of our brothers and sisters is hunger, homeless, addicted, depressed, should we even dare to say a single good thing about existence? While a single one of our brothers and sisters is driven to suicide by life, should we dare to say anything good about it? This world, and the powers of this world, rejected, killed and betrayed Christ Himself?

“Whoever makes himself a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.”

 

[MilesVitae]

God created man knowing that we would fall and bring suffering into the world, and knowing that many of us would end up in hell - and yet, he found (and continues to find) it better to bring us into existence than not. He created our procreative faculties, knowing that some who come into existence by it will be damned, and knowing that after the fall there would be suffering - but he still found it better to allow us to be fruitful than not. So, if God finds existence better than nothingness, who am I to argue?

 

[MilesVitae]

Catholic nihilism- I would agree with that.

While a single one of our brothers and sisters is hunger, homeless, addicted, depressed, should we even dare to say a single good thing about existence? While a single one of our brothers and sisters is driven to suicide by life, should we dare to say anything good about it? This world, and the powers of this world, rejected, killed and betrayed Christ Himself?

“Whoever makes himself a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.”

Yes, we dare to speak good of God’s creation. The evil in the world does not negate the fact of good in the world.

 

[zenith15]

Yeah our chances aren’t very good (I recall the words of one saint you said only three in a thousand people get into heaven).

Wow. I wonder what the determining factor is, if one is a Christian, and does the best they can to imitate Christ?

 

[vames]

I know this is getting close to Catharism- but the fact is, if I reproduced, I would be overwhelmed by guilt.

No, you wouldn’t. You would forget about this thought and be overwhelmed by love and hope for your kids. This nature’s way to dupe us, if you want. But as long as you don’t seek to reproduce, there’s no risk for you to confront such guilt anyway.

I don’t mean to be judgmental- I know parents ‘atone’ for the act of lust by taking on the responsibility of raising the child, and perhaps reproduce without understanding the full consequences, perhaps before they come to know that the life of this world is an empty vanity and a trial and an exile.

They don’t “atone” for anything; they love their kids, so they love raising them. Starting a family is a joy, raising a kid is a joy… and by the time the notion of “empty vanity, trial, exile” strikes them, it’s already too late. So they try to avoid and reject such thoughts anyway. For the human species there’s no escape from this circle. Individual cases of “opting out” are only exceptions, so they don’t really count for the big picture.

Any thoughts? Should more people take up celibacy, and save the souls of the unborn from the pain of this world, and the possibility of worse and endless pain in the world to come?

Nobody “should” do this or that. You can follow your individual option for celibacy, or you can gather some friends who think alike and start a new sect that promotes your thoughts. But you can’t get the majority of people on earth to think like you, because life instinct is too strong and too ingrained in our nature as a species. And all major religions assume and promote it. God promises Life to a humanity terrorized by Death.

 

[Elizium23]

I know this is getting close to Catharism- but the fact is, if I reproduced, I would be overwhelmed by guilt.

Yes, this has gone far past “close” to Catharism and into outright heresy and disregard for the true human condition as taught by the Church. The world is not evil. The flesh is not inherently bad. God created the world and called it “good”. It remains good after the Fall of Adam and Eve. It was truly good before Jesus came and it is even better now that we know Him.

When we participate in procreation we are not ripping a soul from the beatific vision, we are creating it anew, and giving it the opportunity to experience God’s love, not to mention the human experience and human love. We are giving this soul the change to experience free will and all that goes with it. This life is not all suffering and misery. We make of it what we will. God has given us every good thing to use in the pursuit of pleasure and comfort. We just need to remember that our primary goals are the greater glory of God, and personal holiness. Sometimes we need to forsake creature comforts and embrace suffering in order to achieve these goals. Some of us are called to poverty, to imprisonment, to martyrdom for the sake of the Kingdom. Many of us are called to the married life, to “be fruitful and multiply”, to love children and raise them in a Christian home in the hope that they will choose to glorify God and become saints themselves. Truly this is a saintly vocation for mothers and fathers, to give of themselves as the Trinity expresses love. A husband and wife engage in selfless love to procreate their children, and then they share that love with their children, and their children reflect and amplify the love by honoring their parents and God.

Likewise, it is laudable that some of us choose consecrated life and/or Holy Orders so that we can show our supreme love for the Lord and His Church. Embracing celibacy can be a cross to bear for some of us; for others, it is a freedom and a blessing to enjoy while it lasts.

For my own part, I somewhat agree with your sentiment, because while I am not called to Holy Orders, I may not be called to the married life either, because I feel no particular affection for children or ability to care for them. At 40, I may have a call to consecrated religious life, but that opportunity is quickly slipping away as I understand that most religious communities do not accept older postulants. I feel that God does have some plan for me, but I am somewhat in limbo wondering what it could be. For now I just offer Him my thanks that my lifestyle is increasingly secure and comfortable, that I have my good health, and that I can live my faith and witness to others here and in my parish while I discern my true calling.

 

[Qoeleth]

Yes, this has gone far past “close” to Catharism and into outright heresy and disregard for the true human condition as taught by the Church. The world is not evil. The flesh is not inherently bad. God created the world and called it “good”. It remains good after the Fall of Adam and Eve. It was truly good before Jesus came and it is even better now that we know Him.

When we participate in procreation we are not ripping a soul from the beatific vision, we are creating it anew, and giving it the opportunity to experience God’s love, not to mention the human experience and human love. We are giving this soul the change to experience free will and all that goes with it. This life is not all suffering and misery. We make of it what we will. God has given us every good thing to use in the pursuit of pleasure and comfort. We just need to remember that our primary goals are the greater glory of God, and personal holiness. Sometimes we need to forsake creature comforts and embrace suffering in order to achieve these goals. Some of us are called to poverty, to imprisonment, to martyrdom for the sake of the Kingdom. Many of us are called to the married life, to “be fruitful and multiply”, to love children and raise them in a Christian home in the hope that they will choose to glorify God and become saints themselves. Truly this is a saintly vocation for mothers and fathers, to give of themselves as the Trinity expresses love. A husband and wife engage in selfless love to procreate their children, and then they share that love with their children, and their children reflect and amplify the love by honoring their parents and God.

Likewise, it is laudable that some of us choose consecrated life and/or Holy Orders so that we can show our supreme love for the Lord and His Church. Embracing celibacy can be a cross to bear for some of us; for others, it is a freedom and a blessing to enjoy while it lasts.

For my own part, I somewhat agree with your sentiment, because while I am not called to Holy Orders, I may not be called to the married life either, because I feel no particular affection for children or ability to care for them. At 40, I may have a call to consecrated religious life, but that opportunity is quickly slipping away as I understand that most religious communities do not accept older postulants. I feel that God does have some plan for me, but I am somewhat in limbo wondering what it could be. For now I just offer Him my thanks that my lifestyle is increasingly secure and comfortable, that I have my good health, and that I can live my faith and witness to others here and in my parish while I discern my true calling.

I wish you well with your discernment. If God seems to be calling you to a celibate life, it may be a sign also of a call to consecrated life. “Duc in altum” perhaps…

I agree what you are saying might be true about reproduction. But, on the other hand, who can be sure? I know Catholic theology very well, but still if I look into my heart, I could never sentence another being to a seventy year sentence in this earthly valley of tears and vanities.

 

[Byrnwiga]

I know this is getting close to Catharism

Well, on the bright side, the Cathars had very neat defensive castles.

The Shakers died out

Well, in defense of the Shakers, they did adopt many thousands of abandoned children as their own. Their society, while quite different from modern society, still had a very charming feel to it (in my opinion, at least ).

 

[Giggly_Giraffe]

Where did we come from and how long did we exist before we were created? These questions are a mystery for us. Several scriptures tell us God knew us before we were formed in the womb. So, until we can say with certainty that life before our creation is better than the life we are currently experiencing, we cannot definitively say how our part in creation is good, bad, or indifferent. We do know that the Holy Spirit is The Lord, the creator or life and that we join Him in creation of human life.

In our marriage vows, we profess to joyfully accept children. It’s when we fail to associate children with joy that selfishness and burdons & weigh us down leading to narcissistic societies. The joy of giving starts with the marriage act-faithful, total, fidelity, & open to life. When we seek to take instead of give in this natural act, we become spiritually fat. This spiritual obesity often blocks joy in the lives of others. Charity is blocked by the gluttony of the self-taking and manifestes itself to blocking new life, fraternal love, and recognizing others human dignity.

Lastly, similar to the opening, we cannot be certain what the afterlife contains for ourselves, let alone our children. Will the after life be better or worse than this life? Again, we cannot say. We have been told of heaven, hell, and purgatory … But we probably do not have a clue.

With so many unknown variables, we should not walk towards our inner-desires but offer all we have with joy to those we encounter.

 

[april32010]

wow,this thread must be in the running for having the most Church teachings and Saints words bastardized for the purpose of advancing individual agendas .

 

[pig]

“The Cathari were dualistic, believing not in one all-encompassing god, but in two, equal and comparable in status. They held that the physical world was evil and created by the demiurge Rex Mundi (Latin, “King of the World”), who encompassed all that was corporeal, chaotic and powerful; the second god, the one whom they worshipped, was entirely disincarnate: a being or principle of pure spirit and completely unsullied by the taint of matter. He was the god of love, order and peace. Procreation was evil, so women were suspect. Civil authority had no claim on a Cathar, since this was the rule of the physical world. The goal of a Cathar was to become perfect. Cathar missionaries would point out examples of clerical immorality and would contrast that behaviour with uprightness of their own actions. They took special attention to point out the grievances the people of the south received from the French kings, and exalted a local sense of nationalism and independence. Thus, the religious movement moved into the political arena. The Catholic Church was deeply concerned by the spread of Cathar teachings and its developments.”

**Book of Proverbs
**
Who shall find a valiant woman? far and from the uttermost costs is the price of her.

[11] The heart of her husband trusteth in her, and he shall have no need of spoils. [12] She will render him good, and not evil, all the days of her life.