Is it good to hate this life?

[Robert_Sock]

Believe me, I very much look foward to the riches of the kingdom to come, I just don’t see a reason to hate this world while waiting.
If you would only change the word ‘hate’ into the words love less in your last statement, we would be in perfect agreement. As it is, I suppose this is a classic example of one seeing a glass half empty and the other seeing it as half full. Neither of us can refute or change the way of the other because, in a way, each is right.
That being said, I must add that, because of my naturally stubborn nature, I’m not giving up yet. I admire your persistence on this matter and hope you won’t be offended by my own.

Fight on! . You play fair, providing your true feelings, while trying to grasp the other persons perspective. I admire you for that.

 

[ready]

I know you’re not talking about sinners. But can’t you see it’s by the same token that we cannot hate the world? If you hate the corruption and not the corrupted when it comes to sinners, why do you hate the corruption and the corrupted when it comes to this corrupted world? When I wake up in the morning and look out my window I see the beautiful sky and sun above, shining on the green leaves of the trees. And I think of what a wonderful Creator we have, who has created such a beautiful world as this! When I see a sunset, shining with gold, red, pink, and orange; when I smell the fragrance of a rose; when I hear the birds worshiping in their own way amoung the treetops; when I feel the wind blowing in my face; I worship the Lord, for He has indeed created a wonderful world. Despite the corruption that you speak of, the goodness of the Creator still shines through the created!!!

:harp:

I think you are misunderstanding me. I love the good in this world soooooooooo much!!! I am so happy to be alive and on fire with love for God and my neighbor! Don’t think my hatred for sin and its corruption taints my great love of all the goodness I experience in my relationships, Masses, adorations, conversations, in just walking down the street, in just typing on this computer, etc. I’m in love with life, but I hate this life compared to God (meaning I will always use everything in this life in service of our Lord and will not allow myself to ever value the wonderful gifts like I do the great Giver of these gifts. In other words, the things of this life and my life itself will never be valued on the same level by me as I value the Giver of all these good things, so long as I have virtue in me and grace of God to persevere. If God wants me to lose my very precious life (as a martyr this night, for example) I will willingly lose it and give it up for Him (with his grace), as I know this life is nothing compared to Him (Heaven) and compared to the great good of just being obedient to His will for me. Don’t worry, I am quite balanced: I see good and evil. I love the good and despise the evil…I don’t despise people, only that ugly deadly thing called evil: sin, deception, falsehood, pride, arrogance, the Devil, his angels…those things.

 

[JPUSC]

I do not understand,
Why that horse?
Why that horse has been beaten to death?
Why?
why that verse misused and misunderstood?
Why?

“Beating a dead horse” is an idiom that means a particular request or line of conversation is already foreclosed or otherwise resolved, and any attempt to continue it is futile.

 

[roselily]

JPUSC:


Thank you. Now I shall be more easy,

Well, then-ah
They have not beaten horse, have they?
JP! I thought that-Why have such a idiom?
Must they change?

May not beaten meet horse, JP, because horse is good

 

[thevickinator16]

Hey everyone!

I thought I’d add a little to this discussion by referring to the Catechism. Here are some paragraphs that deal with sin in this world that is helped along by the devil:

A hard battle. . .

407 The doctrine of original sin, closely connected with that of redemption by Christ, provides lucid discernment of man’s situation and activity in the world. By our first parents’ sin, the devil has acquired a certain domination over man, even though man remains free. Original sin entails “captivity under the power of him who thenceforth had the power of death, that is, the devil”.298 Ignorance of the fact that man has a wounded nature inclined to evil gives rise to serious errors in the areas of education, politics, social action299 and morals.

408 The consequences of original sin and of all men’s personal sins put the world as a whole in the sinful condition aptly described in St. John’s expression, “the sin of the world”.300 This expression can also refer to the negative influence exerted on people by communal situations and social structures that are the fruit of men’s sins.301

409 This dramatic situation of "the whole world [which] is in the power of the evil one"302 makes man’s life a battle:

The whole of man’s history has been the story of dour combat with the powers of evil, stretching, so our Lord tells us, from the very dawn of history until the last day. Finding himself in the midst of the battlefield man has to struggle to do what is right, and it is at great cost to himself, and aided by God’s grace, that he succeeds in achieving his own inner integrity.303

The sub-paragraph of 409 tells it like it really is. Our life here is about struggle against the devil in this world. The devil rules this world and he gathers souls by tempting them into liking this world and all this world has to offer. He goes after us by telling lies. Lies that include the following: You need a new car, you need to have a high-priced house and an Ipod to show all your success! You NEED…period. All the pomp satan tells us we need is the exact opposite of what we truly do need. We need God and God only. We have been lied to for so long that we fall for the devil’s tricks. It is to plain and simple a truth. We must hate this life or we will make ourselves prone to sin.

I believe this is what we are supposed to get out of this verse. It means we are to be willing to sacrifice everything we have materially to make someone else’s life better. Remember Jesus’ story about the poor woman giving her last bit of money? we are called to sacrifice in this life to attain the next. Simple, isn’t it?

Just some thoughts…

God Bless!

 

[MarysGirls]

Fight on! . You play fair, providing your true feelings, while trying to grasp the other persons perspective. I admire you for that.

 

[MarysGirls]

I think you are misunderstanding me. I love the good in this world soooooooooo much!!! I am so happy to be alive and on fire with love for God and my neighbor! Don’t think my hatred for sin and its corruption taints my great love of all the goodness I experience in my relationships, Masses, adorations, conversations, in just walking down the street, in just typing on this computer, etc. I’m in love with life, but I hate this life compared to God (meaning I will always use everything in this life in service of our Lord and will not allow myself to ever value the wonderful gifts like I do the great Giver of these gifts. In other words, the things of this life and my life itself will never be valued on the same level by me as I value the Giver of all these good things, so long as I have virtue in me and grace of God to persevere. If God wants me to lose my very precious life (as a martyr this night, for example) I will willingly lose it and give it up for Him (with his grace), as I know this life is nothing compared to Him (Heaven) and compared to the great good of just being obedient to His will for me. Don’t worry, I am quite balanced: I see good and evil. I love the good and despise the evil…I don’t despise people, only that ugly deadly thing called evil: sin, deception, falsehood, pride, arrogance, the Devil, his angels…those things.

Oh, I see. I guess if you put it that way, we’re in agreement!

 

[MarysGirls]

Hey everyone!

I thought I’d add a little to this discussion by referring to the Catechism. Here are some paragraphs that deal with sin in this world that is helped along by the devil:

A hard battle. . .

407 The doctrine of original sin, closely connected with that of redemption by Christ, provides lucid discernment of man’s situation and activity in the world. By our first parents’ sin, the devil has acquired a certain domination over man, even though man remains free. Original sin entails “captivity under the power of him who thenceforth had the power of death, that is, the devil”.298 Ignorance of the fact that man has a wounded nature inclined to evil gives rise to serious errors in the areas of education, politics, social action299 and morals.

408 The consequences of original sin and of all men’s personal sins put the world as a whole in the sinful condition aptly described in St. John’s expression, “the sin of the world”.300 This expression can also refer to the negative influence exerted on people by communal situations and social structures that are the fruit of men’s sins.301

409 This dramatic situation of "the whole world [which] is in the power of the evil one"302 makes man’s life a battle:

The whole of man’s history has been the story of dour combat with the powers of evil, stretching, so our Lord tells us, from the very dawn of history until the last day. Finding himself in the midst of the battlefield man has to struggle to do what is right, and it is at great cost to himself, and aided by God’s grace, that he succeeds in achieving his own inner integrity.303

The sub-paragraph of 409 tells it like it really is. Our life here is about struggle against the devil in this world. The devil rules this world and he gathers souls by tempting them into liking this world and all this world has to offer. He goes after us by telling lies. Lies that include the following: You need a new car, you need to have a high-priced house and an Ipod to show all your success! You NEED…period. All the pomp satan tells us we need is the exact opposite of what we truly do need. We need God and God only. We have been lied to for so long that we fall for the devil’s tricks. It is to plain and simple a truth. We must hate this life or we will make ourselves prone to sin.

I believe this is what we are supposed to get out of this verse. It means we are to be willing to sacrifice everything we have materially to make someone else’s life better. Remember Jesus’ story about the poor woman giving her last bit of money? we are called to sacrifice in this life to attain the next. Simple, isn’t it?

Just some thoughts…

God Bless!

 

[djeter]

I don’t think God wants us to “hate” anything but sin. By doing so we desire Him. By failing to do so we can fall into choosing idolatry of the world.

Also, the corruption of Satan ought to be despised. I personally believe that the corruption of Satan is far deeper in this world than most people realize. Satan is the creator of all that is evil and we ought to hate all that is evil in this life!

I’ve been putting together several readings I’ve done on this topic. You can find them here:

payingattentiontothesky.com/category/understanding-sin/

The next one I’m writing is on sin in the bible OT/NT and then perhaps a special one devoted to Saint Paul. If you can recommend any other perspectives, let me know so I can research them.

Thanks

DJ

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

Sadly, we live in world filled with good and evil; there’s no questions about that. If only we lived in a world filled with only the good that God created. But sin came into the world through Adam and Eve. The evil that is in the world spoils what is good; we cannot separate the two. Again, turn your attention to the riches of Heaven and see the glory that God has planned! There will be no comparison between the good in Heaven and the good of this world. Eat, drink, and be merry if you must, and don’t forget to smell the flowers, but know that you are living in a perverted world filled with the corruption of Satan.

Bottom line: This world is to be hated in comparison to Heaven and the World to Come. God alone is GOOD when it comes to our pitiful world.

The world is not perverted. People can listen to the lies of Satan and perform perverted acts, but that’s quite different.

There is still much good and beauty in this world. The Creator’s creation can not in itself be evil, only those who dwell in it, and ONLY if they, of their own free will, turn their backs on the Creator.

 

[Robert_Sock]

The world is not perverted. People can listen to the lies of Satan and perform perverted acts, but that’s quite different.

There is still much good and beauty in this world. The Creator’s creation can not in itself be evil, only those who dwell in it, and ONLY if they, of their own free will, turn their backs on the Creator.

Can you back yourself up with any quotes from the bible after the fall of Adam and Eve? Can you back yourself up with any quotes from the lives of Saints?

Listen again to the words of St Anthony Claret:

*The Golden Key to Heaven
by Saint Anthony Mary Claret

The death of the just: Death will reach everyone, the good and the bad; but the destiny of each one is quite different. The just man sees himself in this valley of tears as a prisoner, serving a very hard term. He considers himself a slave in this world, suffering an extremely distressing servitude. He regards himself a sailor caught in a horrible storm. And as death means an end of his confinement, an end of his slavery, and is the port of his salvation, he ceases not to cry with David, “Woe is me that my sojourning is prolonged!. . .” (Ps. 119:5). He ceases not to ask with the Apostle, “. . . Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?” (Rom. 7:24)
________________*

 

[ready]

Oh, I see. I guess if you put it that way, we’re in agreement!

Great!

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

Can you back yourself up with any quotes from the bible after the fall of Adam and Eve? Can you back yourself up with any quotes from the lives of Saints?

I don’t self-interpret the Bible and I’ve already backed up my position with quotations from orthodox priests.

Life is a struggle. There are days when I can hate my own life but that’s equally wrong.

 

[ready]

Can you back yourself up with any quotes from the bible after the fall of Adam and Eve? Can you back yourself up with any quotes from the lives of Saints?

Listen again to the words of St Anthony Claret:

*The Golden Key to Heaven
by Saint Anthony Mary Claret

The death of the just: Death will reach everyone, the good and the bad; but the destiny of each one is quite different. The just man sees himself in this valley of tears as a prisoner, serving a very hard term. He considers himself a slave in this world, suffering an extremely distressing servitude. He regards himself a sailor caught in a horrible storm. And as death means an end of his confinement, an end of his slavery, and is the port of his salvation, he ceases not to cry with David, “Woe is me that my sojourning is prolonged!. . .” (Ps. 119:5). He ceases not to ask with the Apostle, “. . . Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?” (Rom. 7:24)
________________*

I agree with St. Anthony Mary Claret all the way. If God didn’t give me his joy (Himself) in this life, life would be nothing but a slow painful death of miserable suffering.

 

[MarysGirls]

I agree with St. Anthony Mary Claret all the way. If God didn’t give me his joy (Himself) in this life, life would be nothing but a slow painful death of miserable suffering.

Exactly. :yup:

 

[Robert_Sock]

It looks like we’re in agreement with Saint Anthony Mary Claret. His book, The Golden Key to Heaven was sitting on the kitchen table when my mom passed away. I hope that my mom got as much out of it as I did. It’s really is an excellent book for the elderly. I pay special attention to the title of the “Golden Key to Heaven.” It reminds me of the gold and silver keys on the Vatican emblem. I believe there are 2 keys to Heaven: one gold, and the other silver.

 

[MarysGirls]

It looks like we’re in agreement with Saint Anthony Mary Claret. His book, The Golden Key to Heaven was sitting on the kitchen table when my mom passed away. I hope that my mom got as much out of it as I did. It’s really is an excellent book for the elderly. I pay special attention to the title of the “Golden Key to Heaven.” It reminds me of the gold and silver keys on the Vatican emblem. I believe there are 2 keys to Heaven: one gold, and the other silver.

I’ve never really thought about it before.
While I’m not elderly, I may have to look into that book anyway. It sounds really good.

 

[ready]

I’m reading an excellent book called A Fresh Approach to St. John of the Cross that shed some light on what we are discussing. The book reads:

He who walks in the love of God seeks neither his own gain nor his reward, but only to lose all things and himself for God; and this loss he judges to be his gain. And thus it is as St. Paul asserts: “Mori lucrum” (Phil 1:21), that is, my death for Christ is the spiritual gain of all things and of myself. And consequently the soul declares: I was found. He who does not know how to lose himself does not find himself but rather loses himself, as our Lord teaches in the Gospel: "He who who desires to gain his soul shall lose it, and he who loses it for my sake will gain it: (Mt 16:35) (C 29, 10-11).

St. John of the Cross does an excellent job in his works describing losing oneself to only find oneself.

 

[djeter]

"Before any cosmic act of reform we must have a cosmic oath of allegiance. A man must be interested in life, then he could be disinterested in his views of it. “My son give me thy heart”; the heart must be fixed on the right thing: the moment we have a fixed heart we have a free hand…what we need is not the cold acceptance of the world as a compromise, but some way in which we can heartily hate and heartily love it.

We do not want joy and anger to neutralize each other and produce a surly contentment; we want a fiercer delight and a fiercer discontent. We have to feel the universe at once as an ogre’s castle, to be stormed, and yet as our own cottage, to which we can return at evening. No one doubts that an ordinary man can get on with this world: but we demand not strength enough to get on with it, but strength enough to get it on.

Can he hate it enough to change it, and yet love it enough to think it worth changing? Can he look up at its colossal good without once feeling acquiescence? Can he look up at its colossal evil without once feeling despair? Can he, in short, be at once not only a pessimist and an optimist, but a fanatical pessimist and a fanatical optimist? Is he enough of a pagan to die for the world, and enough of a Christian to die to it? In this combination, I maintain, it is the rational optimist who fails, the irrational optimist who succeeds. He is ready to smash the whole universe for the sake of itself."
G.K. Chesterton, Orthodoxy

I think that is your answer.

DJ

Probably the best essay on Chesterton is the late Fr. Richard Neuhaus’ " Chesterton and the Thereness of It" which you can find here:

payingattentiontothesky.com/fr-richard-neuhaus-on-gk-chesterton/

I’ve also captured some reading selections from both Orthodoxy and The Everlasting Man and arranged them by topics, like this:

About His Theology
An Attempt At Heresy
The Combination Of The Strange With The Secure
The Fact Of Sin
Martyrdom And Suicide In Christianity
Christian Dogma: Answers To Questions
A Cosmic Oath Of Allegiance
All Creation Is Separation
Christian Doctrine And The Blind Fancies Of Boyhood
Loyalty To The Universe
Honor First Glory Second
Robinson Crusoe
Optimists And Pessimists
Love Is Not Blind
The Difficulty of Orthodoxy
Not A World, But The Material For A World
The Peculiar Danger Of The Rich
A Christian Utopia
Miracles
Christianity Separates
Transcendence vs. Immanence

Christian Paradox
Orthodox Theology: The Collision Of Two Passions
The Christian Key To Ethics
Christian View Of Progress I
Christian View Of Progress II
Christian View Of Progress III
Christianity And Nature
Christianity And Democracy
God Forsaken Of God
Joy

Observations
Mysticism: The Ordinary Man, The Agnostic, The Morbid Logician, The Mystic, The Determinist, The Christian, And The Buddhist
The Sun of Transcendentalism, The Moon Of Detached Intellectualism
Ordinary People Have A Much More Exciting Time
Reason Is A Matter Of Faith
The Thought That Stops Thought
Joan Of Arc And Her Master
Beliefs And Institutions
There Is No Victory Or Superiority In Nature
Work Of Nature, Work Of Art

Philosophies Of The Absurd And The Skeptics
Believing In Oneself
The Skeptic Who Believes That Everything Began In Himself
Life Is A Dream?
Every Separate Thing Is”Unique”
A Fundamental Alteration In The Standard
Humility And The New Modesty Of Skeptics
Free Thought Has Exhausted Its Own Freedom
The Ultimate Authority: Will
The Modern Revolutionist
Satire
Intellectualism
The Inner Light
Suicide
Pride

Problematic Philosophies
Evolution
Pragmatists And Objective Truth
Old Christian Virtues Gone Mad

A Christian WorldView Evolving From Childhood And FairyTales
The Spirit Of The Law In Fairy Tales
Laws In Science And In Fairy Tales
The Sentimentalist, The Materialist And The Cool Rationalist From Fairyland
The Self Is More Distant Than Any Star
The Test Of All Happiness Is Gratitude
The Doctrine of Conditional Joy
Life Is As Bright As A Diamond, But As Brittle As A Window-Pane
Perhaps God Is Strong Enough To Exult In Monotony
Magic And The Magician
Infinity Diminishes?
Robinson Crusoe
Five Attitudes Towards Life Chesterton Brings To His Theology
Life As Beautiful As A Fairy-Tale

It will allow you to peruse G.K. for a while, let it pull you from one to the next.

Regards,
DJ

 

[ready]

I am so fond of G.K. Chesterton and his genius!