Is it immoral for people to be Homosexual?

[GentleOne]

Through all my life, I have known being homosexual was a completely immoral idea and decision, but in this sense I have not known how we should think of it, meaning should we think of it in sense that is more of a disorder than a decision? Sorry for not being clear, let me sum it up.

So, I remember I was in highschool, and we once had a discussion about Homosexuality. Now, people had to discuss whether it was moral or immoral. When it was my turn to release my belief about the idea, I said “It is completely immoral, and scientists are wrong about it being a disorder. It is a decision made by the individual with full knowledge of it”. I felt that I hurt a few people emotionally when I said that.

So, what do you people think? Should we consider it more of the way we are born or the way the way decide to do things. Also, another question is it immoral to even have homosexual thoughts? I have looked at sites that talked about this, and they have said that it was “natural”.

Thank you for responses. God bless all.

 

[VicTorDominican]

Should we consider it more of the way we are born or the way the way decide to do things. Also, another question is it immoral to even have homosexual thoughts? I have looked at sites that talked about this, and they have said that it was “natural”.

I think it has nothing to do with the way we’re born. It’s a combination of temperament (ok, that part can be genetic, whatever) and what things are done to the kid when he’s growing up. You get a sensitive kid who is smothered by an over-indulgent mother with deep-seated emotional needs that she tries to use the kid to fulfill, plus a father who is physically present but basically ignores not only the kid but also the sick relationship the mother is forging with the child, and you’re probably going to get a homosexual.

It’s the same way with bullies and people with certain kinds of mental issues, the early childhood environment is extremely powerful in shaping how the child thinks and feels about himself and other people. And neither bullying nor homosexuality are “natural” unless you want to split hairs about what defines “natural”.

Was Beth Thomas “born that way”? youtube.com/watch?v=oRoUi673lz8

Does Billy Robbins weigh 840 pounds because it’s “natural”? youtube.com/watch?v=_S30ooGg65E

Does Paula have 15 personalities because of some “choice” that she made? youtube.com/watch?v=_S30ooGg65E

 

[starsmurf]

Through all my life, I have known being homosexual was a completely immoral idea and decision, but in this sense I have not known how we should think of it, meaning should we think of it in sense that is more of a disorder than a decision? Sorry for not being clear, let me sum it up.

So, I remember I was in highschool, and we once had a discussion about Homosexuality. Now, people had to discuss whether it was moral or immoral. When it was my turn to release my belief about the idea, I said “It is completely immoral, and scientists are wrong about it being a disorder. It is a decision made by the individual with full knowledge of it”. I felt that I hurt a few people emotionally when I said that.

So, what do you people think? Should we consider it more of the way we are born or the way the way decide to do things. Also, another question is it immoral to even have homosexual thoughts? I have looked at sites that talked about this, and they have said that it was “natural”.

Thank you for responses. God bless all.

It is not immoral to be homosexual, any more than it is immoral to have any other temptation. It is only homosexual acts that the Church teaches are immoral or sinful.

From my personal viewpoint, what I have seen in the lives of gay and lesbian friends and family has lead me to believe that it is not a choice, the scientific evidence to support this is very convincing, suggesting that our sexuality is fixed at three years of age (and possibly earlier), far too young to be a choice. There is also good evidence on the side of it being inborn, as there are lots of studies showing that birth order plays a large role, in order to prevent the simple presence of lots of older siblings having a psychological role, the studies only looked at those adopted or fostered.

I have many gay friends and my little sister is lesbian. All of them have told me that they tried desperately to be straight, that they dated members of the opposite sex in order to try and make themselves attracted to them. It failed miserably. Why would anyone in a country like Iran, where homosexuality is punishable by death and the only alternative is a sex change, choose to be gay? I have a friend who is a celibate gay man, he lives in terror of his parents realising that he is gay, because they will disown him, simply for that. He has not chosen his sexuality, has prayed for it to “go away”, has attended those courses that claim to “cure homosexuality” and even seriously considered going to India to be castrated. That is not the behaviour of someone who has a choice.

When you said you thought homosexuality was immoral in high school, you failed to love the sinner. You judged the sinner, not the sin. We are all told not to judge one another, or we will be judged. I find a saying of a Desert Father very appropriate in this case, it is about adultery but applies to any sin, including homosexual acts. “Do not judge an adulterer if you are chaste, or you break the law of God just as much as he does. For He who said ‘do not commit adultery’ also said, ‘do not judge’.”

As you are not tempted to this particular sin, you cannot judge those who are. Love them, pray for them, and thank God every day that you are not subject to that temptation.

 

[FMX500]

Just sit back and think for a moment. It’s only one of three things; it is either subconsciously induced, a condition or a willing decision.

Don’t hate, don’t feel disgusted by it. Just don’t do it yourself.

 

[Visudara]

It is very difficult for me. if I think to the act I feel a sense of horror. When I meet homosexuals in the society and talk with them I try not to think to what they do but I don’t like to be served by gays in a restaurant…

I am convinced that they have not fault in being so, they are most of the times also nice and normal persons, if I succeed in forgetting ‘how’ their sexuality expresses itself.

For me there are two categories of homosexuals: the ones who use sex to enjoy it, without any ethical problem. These are as sinners as a prostitute is.

The ones who fall in love among themselves - what to say? They are only a kind of sick people, I have really pity of them. The problem emerges in the moment in which they intend to express physically their sexuality as they do, because they need a perversion to do it and they obviously cannot marry.

We can’t pretend that they are all saints, hormones - expecially in young persons - play a strong role, the best would be to live in chastity, it would solve their problem.

I feel sad while I am writing, I really thing that an homosexual is a kind of sick person, they try to go against this image, it’s normal, nobody would like to be defined sick, but God has made sex for procreation, also to use it for pleasure is a degenerate attitude of a not evolved soul, of a beast… who has not sinned can throw the first stone!

 

[GentleOne]

Just sit back and think for a moment. It’s only one of three things; it is either subconsciously induced, a condition or a willing decision.

Don’t hate, don’t feel disgusted by it. Just don’t do it yourself.

Thank you for the replies so far.

In my opinion, I think it is a willing condition of your mind. Also, One thing to keep in mind is that(or, just my personal belief) God created men and women. God takes the ribs of the man and makes woman out of it(resembling that one day a man and a woman would soon become one from another). Now, if God said that being Homosexual was fine, he wouldn’t have created woman from man, but rather he would have created man and woman apart.

That is just my view. I don’t know if this has any relevance to the topic.

EDIT: Also, when I said that being homosexual was immoral, I didn’t mean that I basically shunned the people who were “Gay”. I was telling that it is immoral to be homosexual(as there are a few scriptures that tell of the sin of homosexuality). I was merely telling the facts of what is moral and immoral. I don’t expect anyone to be perfect(me for that matter, for I sometimes sin, not on purpose, and I ask for forgiveness from God).

I try not to seem like I am judging. I want people to turn to God. Sorry if it seems like I am judging.

Hope this paragraph made sense.

 

[starsmurf]

Thank you for the replies so far.

In my opinion, I think it is a willing condition of your mind. Also, One thing to keep in mind is that(or, just my personal belief) God created men and women. God takes the ribs of the man and makes woman out of it(resembling that one day a man and a woman would soon become one from another). Now, if God said that being Homosexual was fine, he wouldn’t have created woman from man, but rather he would have created man and woman apart.

That is just my view. I don’t know if this has any relevance to the topic.

God did not create any other disorder in people in the Garden of Eden. Are you going to argue that the disease that causes my terrible physical pain is a “willed condition of the mind” because God didn’t create it in Adam and Eve? There was no suffering in the Garden of Eden, so your argument isn’t really relevent.

I admire you for asking about this and being willing to look at other answers. I hope that you will at least stop seeing it as sinful or immoral to be homosexual, as that is contrary to Church teachings.

 

[fide]

Through all my life, I have known being homosexual was a completely immoral idea and decision, but in this sense I have not known how we should think of it, meaning should we think of it in sense that is more of a disorder than a decision? Sorry for not being clear, let me sum it up.

So, I remember I was in highschool, and we once had a discussion about Homosexuality. Now, people had to discuss whether it was moral or immoral. When it was my turn to release my belief about the idea, I said “It is completely immoral, and scientists are wrong about it being a disorder. It is a decision made by the individual with full knowledge of it”. I felt that I hurt a few people emotionally when I said that.

So, what do you people think? Should we consider it more of the way we are born or the way the way decide to do things. Also, another question is it immoral to even have homosexual thoughts? I have looked at sites that talked about this, and they have said that it was “natural”.

Thank you for responses. God bless all.

Hello GentleOne,

More important than what I or you or anyone else here thinks, is what the Church teaches. This is from the Catechism:

Chastity and homosexuality

2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,<Cf. Gen 191-29; Rom 124-27; 1 Cor 6:10; 1 Tim 1:10> tradition has always declared that “homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered.”<CDF, Persona humana 8> They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.

Notice please the clear distinction between attraction (or temptation) and action. Persons can be tempted to sexual impurity, sins against chastity, in many ways. But in every case we are called to chastity, to holiness. Note also that the causes of same-sex attraction are not clearly known: " Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained." The fact that we don’t know the cause or causes clearly, does not change the fact that acting out same-sex attraction is morally wrong.

 

[GentleOne]

God did not create any other disorder in people in the Garden of Eden. Are you going to argue that the disease that causes my terrible physical pain is a “willed condition of the mind” because God didn’t create it in Adam and Eve? There was no suffering in the Garden of Eden, so your argument isn’t really relevent.

I admire you for asking about this and being willing to look at other answers. I hope that you will at least stop seeing it as sinful or immoral to be homosexual, as that is contrary to Church teachings.

You might want to take a look at this: davidmacd.com/catholic/why_catholics_against_gay_marriage.htm

Sorry if I am sounding mean. I respect all. I just want to know.

 

[starsmurf]

You might want to take a look at this: davidmacd.com/catholic/why_catholics_against_gay_marriage.htm

Sorry if I am sounding mean. I respect all. I just want to know.

I’m sorry, I’m a little confused on what you mean by giving me that link. I may have missed a quotation or something that was what you meant, as I’m now in the terrible pain that condition gives me so the ol’ concentration isn’t so good. I’m also unfamiliar with the site, so I am not sure if it is approved or follows the teachings of the Church.

I understand the reasons that the Catholic Church teaches that homosexual acts are sinful, but as a poster above showed you, the Church does **not **teach that the state of being subjected to the temptation to those acts, ie being homosexual, is sinful or immoral. Nor does it state **why **people are subject to such temptation, ie that it is a freely chosen state. If you are tempted to have sex outside of marriage, that is not sinful, it would only become so if you acted on the temptation. Does that make your heterosexuality immoral or sinful? It is no more “sinful” or “immoral” to be homosexual than it is to be heterosexual.

I was replying to your using the situation in the Garden of Eden to argue that homosexuality is a “willed condition of the mind”, the situation in the Garden of Eden is perfect, there is no suffering, no disorder. You have not answered the question I asked you about that, does that make the disease I suffer from a “willed condition of the mind”? If it is not, then why should you assume that homosexuality is? Did you sit down and deliberately and freely choose your sexuality or did those feelings simply appear without your willing them?

I hope that these ideas will make you a little more understanding of those who are subjected to a temptation that you are not. I have respect for you for seeking answers, not everyone is willing to challenge what they believe. Doing so will help your faith in God, because it is only through testing us, challenging us and breaking down our preconceived ideas that God can actually reach through all that mess and hold us close to Him.

God bless

starsmurf

 

[speakttruth]

Hello GentleOne,

More important than what I or you or anyone else here thinks, is what the Church teaches. This is from the Catechism:

Chastity and homosexuality

2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,<Cf. Gen 191-29; Rom 124-27; 1 Cor 6:10; 1 Tim 1:10> tradition has always declared that “homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered.”<CDF, Persona human 8> They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.

Notice please the clear distinction between attraction (or temptation) and action. Persons can be tempted to sexual impurity, sins against chastity, in many ways. But in every case we are called to chastity, to holiness. Note also that the causes of same-sex attraction are not clearly known: " Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained." The fact that we don’t know the cause or causes clearly, does not change the fact that acting out same-sex attraction is morally wrong.

Hi,
I am glad you stated what the Catholic Church teaches. These are the guide lines and the scriptures that we must follow for our faith regarding a person with SSA. Most people who don’t have a person as a loved one with Same Sex Attraction, really do not understand how someone could be that way unless they were born that way. They are not. That is just an excuse to say I can’t help it so I can act out and it’s not a sin. The devils tactics in anything really. They do not have any fault in the attraction as a temptation and they did not choose this temptation. But they can choose to act out or not. I don’t know how many times this has been said.

The Catholic church doesn’t claim to be a therapist when it comes to the factors that bring someone to a SSA. They want you to be non-judgmental of the person, the sin is the only thing we can judge that if it is wrong and we are to tell the person in love and in truth that acting on temptations are sinful and against God. We don’t treat someone mean, but we also don’t keep someone from the truth that could keep them from salvation. No body likes to hear the truth when they are sinning, but this is what we are supposed to do. It is loving to want the best for that person and that life would bring more pain and the loss of heaven. I have seen it. People are more concerned with hurting someone feelings instead of helping them to heaven. Jesus wasn’t a mealy mouse when it came to telling the truth.

There is a stereo type of how they become SSA, but not all become that way because of an overbearing mother or absent father. Some have development issues or traumas that can delay their maturity and some things can be perceived instead of reality. Rejection from males peers can have an enormous effect on a young man’s affirmation if he is not really masculine or is unable to do sports especially in this superficial world that put sports as a God.

So many factors that you can’t just assume one thing, but a variety of things and a sensitive personality is common. Men come to their SSA from different factors than women. So they don’t all fit into a box. I have a loved one, male that has SSA who had brain cancer at five and really if you don’t have a loved one with this problem and know personally you shouldn’t be telling people what is the cause or the reasons because you cannot know unless you have experience it.

That is why we have the Catholic church to teach us how to behave and conduct ourselves as faithful Catholics, not Cafeteria Catholics, which I used to be and now know the truth. The main thing to know that any temptations that you act out on is a sin and some are serious sins which can get you in the place where you do not want to be. Hell. We are expected to remain chaste if we are not married and chaste to the person who you are married to. Follow the commandments and try to learn your faith, become holy and as a Catholic you have the best chance of reaching your goal. Heaven.
God Bless

 

[GentleOne]

Well, thank you to all who have replied. I am beginning to understand the differences between the “temptation” and the action itself.

But, something what concerns me is scientists sometimes say it also is the stage of puberty, in which a boy or girl has sexual attractions towards their own sex. Is this actually true? I have never had Gay thoughts in my lifetime(at least, I don’t I have), and I have always believed it to be the will of on individual to be what they want to be.

Right now, I am having a mind battle with myself, and it is very stressing for me for some reason. From what I have been taught through my Catholic parents, homosexuality is completely immoral and should not be done or thought of, and then there is the side where they say it is “natural” and it is mean to think it is immoral.

Thank you for any replies. As said before, I intend not to hurt people’s feelings, but to clear up my own mind(and maybe the minds of others) so that I can know how to consider these types of things.

 

[CMB3884]

Well, thank you to all who have replied. I am beginning to understand the differences between the “temptation” and the action itself.

But, something what concerns me is scientists sometimes say it also is the stage of puberty, in which a boy or girl has sexual attractions towards their own sex. Is this actually true? I have never had Gay thoughts in my lifetime(at least, I don’t I have), and I have always believed it to be the will of on individual to be what they want to be.

Right now, I am having a mind battle with myself, and it is very stressing for me for some reason. From what I have been taught through my Catholic parents, homosexuality is completely immoral and should not be done or thought of, and then there is the side where they say it is “natural” and it is mean to think it is immoral.

Thank you for any replies. As said before, I intend not to hurt people’s feelings, but to clear up my own mind(and maybe the minds of others) so that I can know how to consider these types of things.

I didn’t feel like you were intending to hurt anyone’s feelings or be disrespectful, it just seems like you want to discuss what you have been taught.

I can tell you as someone who is a lesbian Catholic woman, I did not choose this. I wish it wasn’t this way. I struggled for YEARS with the attractions I felt towards other women but I can not change that part of myself. What it comes down to is the choice you make as a Catholic - that, I can control. Everyone who is not married - regardless of their hetero or homosexuality - is called to chastity, simple as that.

I will also echo what most others have said here, the Catholic Church does not believe that having same sex attraction is a sin, ACTING on those attractions, however, is a sin.

 

[wayman]

If a child is tramatized in one way or another and as a result becomes more attracted to the same sex the attraction is not a sin if it’s not acted upon.

 

[StGeorge1059]

Allow me to quote the Cathecism, considering its the best source for questions like this

"Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered.“142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.”

• CCC 2357

Allow me to elaborate on the last sentence "Under no circumstances can they be approved. It is morally wrong, because it, as the Catechism says, gets rid of the purpose of sex, which is reproduction. This however, does not put “gays” in a group all their own. It’s a sin, flat out, like any other sin. It doesn’t mean we hate them or love them any more then any other person. We pray for them, but it’s a sin. To say we should have “gay pride” is the same is having adulterer pride, theft pride, lying pride, and any other sin against God. I’m just as against using contraceptive and masturbation as I am against someone being gay. Sexuality is a very “touchy” issue and satan knows that, thats why he plays so strongly on it. Forgive me for not being able to quote exactly, but in the Bible it says essentially that the end days consist of immorality, what is bad is good, and it specifically mentions gay marriage. It also mentions adultery of any kind. Flat out: Sexuality is only okay IF it is for reproductive purposes in between a married couple. As soon as you a) aren’t married or b) are no longer with the intention of reproducing, it’s a sin.

God bless.

 

[Visudara]

I didn’t mean that homosexuals are immoral but that for me the homosexual act is perverse and a disgusting practice. As I have already written I think that homosexuality is a sickness because in nature there is not space for individuals which cannot contribute to the propagation of the species. I feel that homosexuals are ill, only they don’t understand this fact and they often can do nothing against their nature even if they want. It is the same as when a person is born without a leg, what can he or she do?..

In case of catholic homosexuals I think they have no other choice than accepting their illness and live in chastity.

All of us are anyway called to chastity: having sex for gratification when there is not any intention of procreating is also wrong and degrading to the state of a beast. But if somebody is longing for sex it is exactly the same as if he/she is making it. Jesus told that if a man longs for a woman of an other man is already committing an adultery. This is the power of thoughts.

The point therefore lies in our evolution: chastity is important because lust and gluttony are the bad qualities which most keep human beings in the world (Mammona) and far from God. Actions are defined ‘sins’ when they keep us away from the path to purity.

On the other way Saint Augustine said:" Love and then make what you want".

Did he mean that whatever we do with a pure heart is not a sin?.. That we will be judged for our intentions more than for our acts?

 

[Dakota_Roberts]

I didn’t mean that homosexuals are immoral but that for me the homosexual act is perverse and a disgusting practice. As I have already written I think that homosexuality is a sickness because in nature there is not space for individuals which cannot contribute to the propagation of the species. I feel that homosexuals are ill, only they don’t understand this fact and they often can do nothing against their nature even if they want. It is the same as when a person is born without a leg, what can he or she do?..

In case of catholic homosexuals I think they have no other choice than accepting their illness and live in chastity.

All of us are anyway called to chastity: having sex for gratification when there is not any intention of procreating is also wrong and degrading to the state of a beast. But if somebody is longing for sex it is exactly the same as if he/she is making it. Jesus told that if a man longs for a woman of an other man is already committing an adultery. This is the power of thoughts.

The point therefore lies in our evolution: chastity is important because lust and gluttony are the bad qualities which most keep human beings in the world (Mammona) and far from God. Actions are defined ‘sins’ when they keep us away from the path to purity.

On the other way Saint Augustine said:" Love and then make what you want".

Did he mean that whatever we do with a pure heart is not a sin?.. That we will be judged for our intentions more than for our acts?

If there is no room in nature for those that do not reproduce that means celibacy is unnatural. In reality an individual who assists in the propagation of the species has a place. Whether that is a pediatrician or an extra set of hands in raising the young. Indeed a sibling who does not reproduce and instead helps nurture his or her siblings children would be a productive member of society.

 

[Visudara]

Quote: If there is no room in nature for those that do not reproduce that means celibacy is unnatural. In reality an individual who assists in the propagation of the species has a place. Whether that is a pediatrician or an extra set of hands in raising the young. Indeed a sibling who does not reproduce and instead helps nurture his or her siblings children would be a productive member of society.

I didn’t mean that! What you say is absolutely correct, there was a misunderstanding. Also: LOVE is the religion of Jesus Christ and we should help all human beings, education of children has a primary importance.

I meant that from an evolutionary point of view homosexuality is an aberration and that the way such a sexuality is expressed has no meaning and no end.

Yes, from the same point of view also celibacy is unnatural. The difference is in the two different systems, to which the two topics belong.

There are two systems: the world (Mammona) and God.

Jesus said that who will not hate his father, his mother, his wife etc will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

This means that we should reach a total detachment from the worldly things, from food, sex, worldly relations (parents, siblings, wife and husband…) and ‘hate’ our chains (attachments of any kind). In this scheme celibacy is the only choice, or better, the only possible consequence. As we reach detachment we become witnesses of our life, we don’t identify anymore with the events of the world, we are always only in God. Certain things do not give any satisfaction anymore, if we are not identified with them. imagine yourself while you observe yourself eating, without getting the fruit of it! If you are not identified in the taste for you it is the same if you are eating an ice cream or a piece of hard bread. This is what means ‘to die in God’: we die and God lives in us. We surrender to God. In this situation the only directory of our action is a clear and real morality, which derives from an higher discrimination, and not from low impulses.

In this contest celibacy is not the celibacy of an eunuch, but the fruit of an evolutionary step of the soul in the direction of God.

The celibacy of an eunuch is not natural instead and being an event of the world falls in the schemes of science and not in the one of spirituality.

As a matter of fact celibacy should not be a forced decision (which would not bring any merit anyway, since - as Jesus said - wishing is the same as doing) but a natural, inevitable conclusion of our own spiritual path.

So, when I hear about priests which are still attracted by sex I don’t think ‘they should let them marry’ but ‘they should stop being priests’. Spirituality can be taught only by the ones who practice it. If you say to a child ‘don’t smoke’ while you are smoking, he will learn to smoke (without coherence between thought, word and deed our words have no power).

From this point of view not only the practices of homosexuals but also the practices of the so called ‘normal’ people are ‘immoral’: they bind to earth, they keep away from God and become chains for our souls. Also many ‘normal’ people - the media reflect clearly what the customs of most of the human beings on Earth are - behave in a way that we can only describe as an ‘aberration’…

To speak about these things has not to be seen as a judgement of the ‘sinners’, which hearts only God can see, but as a reciprocal definition of the path to enforce our discrimination: this is the beautiful end of our conversations, I think.

 

[GentleOne]

I think I am getting what everybody is saying. Tell me if I am off.

So, what is being said is that:

1. Homosexual thoughts are NOT a sin, but the homosexual ACT is.
2. We should not say it is immoral for someone to be homosexual
3. It is discrimination to say that homosexuality is immoral.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

 

[RaymondJensen]

It is not immoral to be homosexual, any more than it is immoral to have any other temptation. It is only homosexual acts that the Church teaches are immoral or sinful.

From my personal viewpoint, what I have seen in the lives of gay and lesbian friends and family has lead me to believe that it is not a choice, the scientific evidence to support this is very convincing, suggesting that our sexuality is fixed at three years of age (and possibly earlier), far too young to be a choice. There is also good evidence on the side of it being inborn, as there are lots of studies showing that birth order plays a large role, in order to prevent the simple presence of lots of older siblings having a psychological role, the studies only looked at those adopted or fostered.

I have many gay friends and my little sister is lesbian. All of them have told me that they tried desperately to be straight, that they dated members of the opposite sex in order to try and make themselves attracted to them. It failed miserably. Why would anyone in a country like Iran, where homosexuality is punishable by death and the only alternative is a sex change, choose to be gay? I have a friend who is a celibate gay man, he lives in terror of his parents realising that he is gay, because they will disown him, simply for that. He has not chosen his sexuality, has prayed for it to “go away”, has attended those courses that claim to “cure homosexuality” and even seriously considered going to India to be castrated. That is not the behaviour of someone who has a choice.

When you said you thought homosexuality was immoral in high school, you failed to love the sinner. You judged the sinner, not the sin. We are all told not to judge one another, or we will be judged. I find a saying of a Desert Father very appropriate in this case, it is about adultery but applies to any sin, including homosexual acts. “Do not judge an adulterer if you are chaste, or you break the law of God just as much as he does. For He who said ‘do not commit adultery’ also said, ‘do not judge’.”

As you are not tempted to this particular sin, you cannot judge those who are. Love them, pray for them, and thank God every day that you are not subject to that temptation.

i sorta agree yet disagree. I believe that everyone has a “same sex attraction” to some point along with an “opposite sex attraction” just for some people it takes alot for one or the other to come out. I definately agree the “hate the sin not the sinner” message you brought up.