J
JMMJ
Guest
That isn’t Church teaching at all. You should not be posting here things like that when non-catholics maybe reading it and get a false understanding of what the church teaches on this issue.
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Is it insulting to invite Catholics to my Episcopalian confirmation?
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Tis_Bearself
Patron
Are you serious? Should I just be glad that the whole Protestant Reformation happened because all those people were at least getting engaged with Jesus in their respective schismatic churches?From the fullness of the Truth but there is still truth in the OP’s faith. Isn’t it better to be an active episcopal then a non-practicing Catholic? Ideally stay Catholic and be active. But if you aren’t going to be, isnt it best we encounter Jesus in the way that we are able to? I don’t think we should put down someone trying to reach Jesus. Ideally don’t leave the church but that ship sailed for the OP. So now we should be glad he’s at least getting engaged in his faith
The OP should have gotten engaged in his Catholic faith, and then he wouldn’t have needed to leave. It’s not okay for a Catholic to walk out on his faith. Sometimes it is understandable, but it is never okay, and I am never going to be happy when I see it occur.
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JMMJ
Guest
Some people just don’t have faith and don’t believe. It isn’t as if they just “chuck” out their religion like a pair of old shoes.
I say good for OP for finding a spiritual path that he is able to believe in and have faith in. Many “chuck” out what they don’t believe in, but don’t take the time to find something they do believe in and have faith in.
I say good for OP for finding a spiritual path that he is able to believe in and have faith in. Many “chuck” out what they don’t believe in, but don’t take the time to find something they do believe in and have faith in.
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prayerrider
Guest
Exactly what I thought when I read that. Surely they’re not calling it that.Anglican Communion. “Pontifical Mass”? Aye?
Tis_Bearself
Patron
“Outside the Church there is no salvation” is a direct quote from the current Catholic Catechism (CCC 846-848). While we do not believe that all Protestants, non-Christians, and non-believers necessarily will go to Hell, if they get to Heaven it is only through somehow being in communion or sharing the beliefs of the Catholic Church. They do NOT get to Heaven through whatever other church they happen to join, and when it’s a Catholic who has been a member of the Catholic Church and walks out, that is more serious than if it’s someone raised in the different church and taught their whole life that the different church is the right one to be in.Second, there is absolutely no salvation outside of the Catholic Church.
This is basic Catholic teaching. It is not up for debate.
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a9p3.htm
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Tis_Bearself
Patron
Sadly, certain Anglo-Catholic Anglicans do use terms like that.Anglican Communion. “Pontifical Mass”? Aye?
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Bushum
Guest
Atheists and the like will have a chance to repent at the end times. Revelations reveals that some will still refuse and be damned to Hell. So while someone who is an atheist could still get to heaven it will be after they repent and accept Christ as their savior. They will NOT get into heaven if they refuse to repent and maintain their atheism. In other words, there may be FORMER atheists in heaven but there will not be atheists in heaven.
Tis_Bearself
Patron
I don’t disagree with you that the atheist would need to accept Christ in order to get to Heaven; whether Christ in his mercy might give the atheist a chance to do this right after death (since Mr. Atheist is getting judged right after death and sent to Heaven, Purgatory or Hell, we’re not waiting around for end times) is up to God and his mercy. Assuming that Mr. Atheist chose to accept Christ, then I presume God would make him a Catholic or the equivalent for all intents and purposes on the spot, as we will all be one in Heaven.
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tafan2
Guest
A) your history of Trent is a bit off.Every church was man-made. Even the Bible itself was finely curated by man during council of Nicea. The highly stringent legalistic rules and regulations of the Catholic faith (which I feel loses sight of God) were written by men in the council of Trent.
B) you cannot say all churches are man made, when you know Jesus established a church. Even if you don’t accept that as the Catholic Church, His church would have been divinely instituted.
C) although a formal acceptance of a Canon took well into the 4th century, and the First Council of Nice was part of that process, the books included were already accepted almost everywhere.
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ioannes_pius
Guest
Uh, it most certainly is Church teaching.
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ioannes_pius
Guest
I’m saying there is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church.
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VanitasVanitatum
Guest
It is called Church Triumphant.
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Episcopalian
Guest
@ioannes_pius, please see the quote aboveb ) According to Catholic faith, the Catholic Church has been endowed with the whole of revealed truth and all the means of salvation as a gift which cannot be lost. Nevertheless, among the elements and gifts which belong to the Catholic Church (e.g.; the written Word of God, the life of grace, faith, hope and charity etc.) many can exist outside its visible limits. The Churches and ecclesial Communities not in full communion with the Catholic Church have by no means been deprived of signi- ficance and value in the mystery of salvation, for the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation. In ways that vary according to the condition of each Church or ecclesial Community, their celebrations are able to nourish the life of grace in their members who participate in them and provide access to the communion of salvation.
Principles and Norms on Ecumenism 102-4
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ioannes_pius
Guest
Okay, why?
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Episcopalian
Guest
What I was trying to convey that the Christian Church as we know it, is severely deviated in structure and bureaucractic form that Christ established. Regardless of Orthodox, Catholic, Protestant.Every church was man-made. Even the Bible itself was finely curated by man during council of Nicea. The highly stringent legalistic rules and regulations of the Catholic faith (which I feel loses sight of God) were written by men in the council of Trent.
Regardless of the structure or liturgical practices, the message of them all is “salvation through Christ” it’s simply (at least for me) what ‘flavor’ you’re looking for and choose to attend each week.
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Episcopalian
Guest
It basically says that churches not in communion with the Catholic one provides access to salvation.
I italicised the important bits.
I italicised the important bits.
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HopkinsReb
Guest
This is simply incorrect. Initially the Anglican Church was on the Calvinist spiritual presence side, while the Real Presence view came into vogue with the Oxford movement. Never has the Anglican Church viewed the Eucharist as “borderline symbolic.”Well the Episcopal Church had totally open Communion because the Eucharist was borderline symbolic years upon years ago.
It is not the Protestant view that the Eucharist is symbolic. It’s the Zwinglian and radical view. Calvin believed in the efficacy of the sacrament so strongly that having at least weekly Communion was one of his conditions to stay in Geneva. Luther believed in the RP. The 39 Articles take the Calvinist view.
Tis_Bearself
Patron
You are misreading the reference.It basically says that churches not in communion with the Catholic one provides access to salvation.
I italicised the important bits.
The correct teaching, as you should know having been a Catholic, is the one that I posted above, including the relevant current Catechism section.
As I said above, it is up to God in his mercy to decide whether you will be saved or not, and Episcopalians are not automatically excluded from that, but your salvation occurs ONLY through your being in communion with the Catholic Church in some way. For example, you right now are in communion with the Catholic Church in several ways because you were baptized Catholic and seem to have received some other Catholic sacraments.
You do NOT achieve salvation through the Episcopal Church or any church other than the Catholic Church.
That is what is meant by “Outside the Church, there is No Salvation”, which has always been and is still part of the Church’s official teaching, and is not up for debate.
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tafan2
Guest
It’s hard to make that claim about the Church’s structure, it practically requires that either the Apostles or their immediate successors deviated. Bishops, priests, deacons: were all present from very early on. Indeed, while the Apostles may not have used the term Bishop, they clearly saw themselves as fulfilling that role and we know they instituted both deacons and other bishops.What I was trying to convey that the Christian Church as we know it, is severely deviated in structure and bureaucractic form that Christ established. Regardless of Orthodox, Catholic, Protestant.
As to bureaucracy, one would expect that to grow the church needed to government a billion people as opposed to 5000.
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on_the_hill
Guest
Oy vey. Invite your friends and relatives, already!
And if I were invited, I’d most certainly attend.
My sister’s first child was baptized as a Catholic. Her second child was baptized as a Presbyterian. I asked our priest about whether I should attend. He said yes. Absolutely.
This whole baloney about Catholics imperiling their souls by attending others’ services, by potentially causing “scandal,” by potentially giving implicit approval, it’s all hooey.
Invite, go, have fun.
And if I were invited, I’d most certainly attend.
My sister’s first child was baptized as a Catholic. Her second child was baptized as a Presbyterian. I asked our priest about whether I should attend. He said yes. Absolutely.
This whole baloney about Catholics imperiling their souls by attending others’ services, by potentially causing “scandal,” by potentially giving implicit approval, it’s all hooey.
Invite, go, have fun.
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