Is it just me or is Traditional Catholicism (especially online) hijacked by a Pharisee spirit?

[PatienceAndHumility]

Brothers and Sisters in Christ,

I am finding it increasingly worrisome that Traditional Catholicism is being subsumed by a Pharisee spirit. Let me make my position clear from the off, there ought to be no left (“liberal”) or right (“traditional”) wings of the Church. Truth is Truth. However they make useful classifications, for the sake of argument. And they do help to distinguish between the forces behind the ebbs and flows of Catholic thought. In this context, Traditionals are those who for example who enjoy Latin Mass.

However, rejection of VII, the New Mass, and ultimately the embodying a spirit of insubordination is what seems to have consumed a considerable portion of Traditional Catholics (at least online). This is being exacerbated by the proliferation of social media charlatans, so prevalent in this space.

This is why I am so grateful that we have CA. We should not take this community for granted. Having Tim Staples at the helm of CA Apologetics, is no small matter. I think this is one of the main reasons CA remains a such a great and level headed source of knowledge amidst SO MUCH noise out there at the moment. Dont get me wrong, CA also suffers from the “extremes” of Catholic opinion but on the whole I think the Mods do a great job of keeping views steered properly.

This threat of a Pharisee spirit is truly a Trojan Horse- one unknowingly gives up their heart so as to appear outwardly wholesome. This allure of gnosticism and triumphalism is rearing its head in the widespread insubordination we see consuming Traditionals.

I apologise if this comes across as a rant but I hope others might share their views too. Hopefully I am not too off beam with this!

Pax Christi!

 

[Sarcelle]

It’s more like being taken over by the political spirit.

Especially among online American Catholicism.

It’s like their faith is informed by their politics instead of the other way round.

 

[1Lord1Faith]

The internet attracts extreme viewpoints. Even the MSM is sensationalist in their coverage of everything. So it all becomes somewhat of a feedback loop.

So, no, it’s not just you.

This threat of a Pharisee spirit is truly a Trojan Horse- one unknowingly gives up their heart so as to appear outwardly wholesome. This allure of gnosticism and triumphalism is rearing its head

This is an interesting statement. I do believe that people, especially some young people, are taken in by the temptation to appear virtuous. The same can be said for protesters in the street - they want to be virtuous. But what is the allure? Is it really some kind of allure of Gnosticism? IDK, but it appears that way sometimes.

 

[Mythicalbio]

You’re correct and many of them are schismatics and more. It’s best to ignore it. I love the trad movement in general though, getting baptized with the FSSP and all, but still. It is full of problems. Then again so is every part of the Church. God’s grace will win out in the end.

 

[Shakuhachi]

It’s like their faith is informed by their politics instead of the other way round.

Perhaps we all do that.

 

[Roguish]

This allure of gnosticism and triumphalism is rearing its head in the widespread insubordination we see consuming Traditionals.

Gnosticism?? I don’t think I’ve ever met a tradi-cat who was also into gnosticism.

This threat of a Pharisee spirit is truly a Trojan Horse

Perhaps it is. But it’s not the only trojan horse. There are others. The spirit of rebellion is tempting indeed, but so is the spirit of the safety of the herd.

 

[Jen7]

I am finding it increasingly worrisome that Traditional Catholicism is being subsumed by a Pharisee spirit.

I notice this too. And it’s sad to me. I feel quite “traditional minded” but can’t go to the local TLM because I can’t handle the Phariseeim.
I was told that in order to participate in their parish’s mom’s group meetups at a city park I would be required to be in “dress code” which is skirt below the knees and shoulders covered. Ya’ll it was 95+ degrees out and we’re talking about a city park. I said I can’t wear a (modest) sleeveless blouse and nice shorts? Nope. When I asked why not I was told it was because my body might lead any middle school boys into sin. Ya’ll I’m a middle aged mommy with a bunch of kids hanging all over me. Me in decent-length shorts and a modest sleeveless blouse ain’t gonna lead anyone into sin, I promise. And of course I could have just worn the skirt and tshirt - I know that. But it rubs me wrong that an off campus activity had a dress code in the first place. It felt so shallow and petty and very unwelcoming. I joined the moms group at a Novus Ordo parish instead. I don’t see eye to eye with a lot of the moms there, but they’re friendly. More than I can say for the TLM gals. Sad.

 

[Jfsteck]

Our personal experience with a group called Servants of The Holy Family in Colorado Springs resulted in losing our 17 yo son. Unbeknownst to us Thru Internet they coerced him to refuse to finish high school and start “seminary” with them and when we tried everything to stop them they sent him a plane ticket. Anyone with info on them please tell us. They have gotten our son to a complete change of personality, reject his family .

 

[Wesrock]

There are a lot of people who consider themselves traditionalists on this forum who do not reject VII and who are not sedevacantist, but who simply benefit more from a more traditionally celebrated liturgy.

 

[stpurl]

Well apparently it isn’t just you. . .but you and others are, I believe, rather ‘unjust’.

I see far more of an attitude directed toward those ‘terrible traditionalists’ and a lot of broad=brush painting.

And of course the requisite anecdotes of the overly modest rigid people who supposedly embody ‘traditional Catholicism’.

I pity those who are so in need of puffing themselves up and taking pride in their own ‘worries and concerns over purported failings of others’ that they don’t see the plank in their own eyes.

Of course, they’ll probably convince themselves either that I must be talking of those hateful trads. . .

Or that I must be one. . .

So easy to find fault with other people’s failings, and never see one’s own. . .isn’t it?

 

[CRM_Brother]

Gnosticism?? I don’t think I’ve ever met a tradi-cat who was also into gnosticism.

I believe @PatienceAndHumility is not speaking of doctrinal gnosticism, as in the specific beliefs of the early Christian heretical sect but rather conceptual gnosticism: that there is a special hidden knowledge/holiness in the Latin Mass.

I must agree with that sentiment. I, too, have encountered somewhat of a gnostic attitude by some with regard to tradi-cat practices and beliefs. I have been told by those few that there lies a hidden power in the Latin recitation of older prayers rather than the newer translated versions in vernacular. Some have even told me that attending the Tridentine Mass over the Mass of Paul VI holds a greater closeness to God and allows man to enter into the unknowable atmosphere of the mysteries of God.

Then again, I have not just encountered this neo-gnosticism from just tradi-cats. I have also found this in some of the more progressive or charismatic movements. Among these neo-gnostics on the opposite side of the Church spectrum, I have most often found them amongst the Neocatechumenal Way. I am sure that there are orthodox Catholics within this movement and it does do a large amount of good in the world, it is just that this is where I find the similar attitude toward a ‘secret knowledge’ among its adherents. It even got to the point where the Vatican had to intervene when they changed integral parts of the liturgy.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Then again, I have not just encountered this neo-gnosticism from just tradi-cats. I have also found this in some of the more progressive or charismatic movements.

That’s for sure!

There are pharisaical and “gnostic” (I myself would call it superstitious baloney) elements in all areas of the church. It is not strictly a trad problem.

There are plenty of social justice Catholics who are very pharisaical towards someone who doesn’t toe their “party line” on political beliefs or economic practices or Enneagrams or church architecture/ decor or whatever.

In the end, “pharisaical” simply means being a closed-minded judgmental person who is not open to others having different but valid expressions and experiences of Catholicism.

 

[Lea101]

It’s more like being taken over by the political spirit.

Especially among online American Catholicism.

It’s like their faith is informed by their politics instead of the other way round.

Well said. I feel like such a huge outsider during these recent years because I think people are labelling me with certain words through an American perspective!

Pharisee spirit. Let me make my position clear from the off, there ought to be no left (“liberal”) or right (“traditional”) wings of the Church. Truth is Truth. However they make useful classifications, for the sake of argument. And they do help to distinguish between the forces behind the ebbs and flows of Catholic thought. In this context, Traditionals are those who for example who enjoy Latin Mass.

I do agree with your general sentiment. But at the same time I think it’s best to be fair and also say that the other end (the very “liberal” Catholic side) also fall prey to this mindset…that they’re more Catholic than others.

There are a lot of flaws on this body and we need to take a step back and keep eyes on God and not politics or personal preferences.

Putting all aside, CAF is actually not the worst place. I’ve actually seen tumblr ‘tradcats’ who are white nationalists, or tumblr ‘Catholic witches’.

We as people crave for affiliation so it’s not surprising that a church this big and universal would start forming its little groups. It’s only a problem when their beliefs go against the Church, or rely on superficial things to maintain their faith.

 

[PatienceAndHumility]

You’re correct and many of them are schismatics and more. It’s best to ignore it. I love the trad movement in general though, getting baptized with the FSSP and all, but still. It is full of problems. Then again so is every part of the Church. God’s grace will win out in the end.

Amen. Completely agree with you on this.

Gnosticism?? I don’t think I’ve ever met a tradi-cat who was also into gnosticism

Gnosticism in the sense of the acquisition of hidden knowledge.

I don’t see eye to eye with a lot of the moms there, but they’re friendly

Yes and I think the trade off between retaining the right spirit/heart of our faith instead of legalistic application of the Law is winning out amongst many Traditionals

 

[ioannes_pius]

It’s more like being taken over by the political spirit.

Especially among online American Catholicism.

It’s like their faith is informed by their politics instead of the other way round.

Americanism.

 

[pnewton]

Traditionalism lends itself to legalism, just as Progressive Catholicism lends itself to indifferentism. Maybe all good things have a wrong direction they can be taken to. I have seen traditionalists that would have made a Pharisee proud. I have seen more that are saints in all but name. It is best not to take any label too far. Extremists will always seem more prominent than they are. The humble will always appear fewer than they are.

 

[PatienceAndHumility]

I am sorry to hear this. This is very sad and the change of personality and rejection of family points to the change of heart I think we see across many who sadly fall into this trap. I have had a quick look at the Society you mention and I am by no means now well read on them but it appears they too suffer from the insubordination problem which many such “Traditional” societies suffer from

 

[Salibi]

I saw your other thread about this and was very saddened by it. I wish I could do something more than pray. I cannot imagine the pain that you must be going through.

You have all my sympathies and well-wishes. May God remove your son from that group’s clutches and restore happiness to your family and true holiness to your son’s heart.

 

[PatienceAndHumility]

So easy to find fault with other people’s failings, and never see one’s own. . .isn’t it?

This is not intended to be personal dear Brother/Sister. The fact that liberals (to use a similarily laboured term) fall to comparable traps is a truism. The endemic of Pharisee spirit is most prevalent in the Traditionals however (to use a hijacked term). In other words, those who often hold the letter of the Law and it’s strict adherence above charity and love. The heart of Christ is often then lost…

 

[Sarcelle]

Christ himself summarizes it well.

He calls it straining at gnats while swallowing camels.

Straining at the minute details all the while missing the whole point of the Gospel, Love itself.