Is it just me...

[Convert_in_99]

…or has Family Life at CAF been getting a little hyper-conservative as of late? A good case of “being more Catholic than the Pope?” I fear we are going to be doing more harm than good this way. Lets us not lead others into unnecessary despair or hopelessness. Please stop making things up and saying its “what God (or the Church) wants” ! Please stick to only OFFICIAL Catholic Church teaching! Thank you!

 

[jmjZelie]

Yes I agree.

Where the Church has given Her children freedom to discern certain matters, we should not presume to impose personal opinions upon others and attempt to pass it off as Church teaching.

 

[EasterJoy]

I think that objections to particular instances where personal opinion is confused with religious duty are best brought up on a case-by-case basis. You are right: that is a line we should not cross here. If the discussion is done respectfully, it can be rather enlightening on all sides.

Having said that, this forum isn’t entirely restricted to only teaching the Faith, but rather restricts us to not teaching things opposed to the faith. If someone believes there is some practical benefit in some parenting method or other, for instance, it is OK to propose that method here. That does not imply the method, suggestion, or favored point of view is a direct corollary of Church teaching, only that it is compatible with living according to Church teaching.

With over a billion souls in the Church, some of us will be spread all along the political spectrum. Since there is more than one way to form a just society, there is no reason we cannot co-exist peacefully in spite of that. Someone can be far more conservative than we are without being “hyper-conservative,” just as someone might be far more politically liberal than we are without being “hyper-liberal” with respect to Church teaching.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

…or has Family Life at CAF been getting a little hyper-conservative as of late? A good case of “being more Catholic than the Pope?” I fear we are going to be doing more harm than good this way. Lets us not lead others into unnecessary despair or hopelessness. Please stop making things up and saying its “what God (or the Church) wants” ! Please stick to only OFFICIAL Catholic Church teaching! Thank you!

hmmm I kinda have the opposite view. It would seem to me that there is a good case of realativism. On the spectrum of religious forums of the Catholic flavor, I would say that this is one of the most anti “conservative” Not necessarily in “leadership” or moderation, but in terms of discussion by the general public. In any one of the “is this a sin” posts I have seen many people who claim to be more Catholic than the Church offering de facto binding and loosing of sins… One can only pray that people could be at least as Catholic as the Pope…

 

[Convert_in_99]

Yes I agree.

Where the Church has given Her children freedom to discern certain matters, we should not presume to impose personal opinions upon others and attempt to pass it off as Church teaching.

Thanks! Glad to hear I’m not alone! :hug3:

I think that objections to particular instances where personal opinion is confused with religious duty are best brought up on a case-by-case basis. You are right: that is a line we should not cross here. If the discussion is done respectfully, it can be rather enlightening on all sides.

Having said that, this forum isn’t entirely restricted to only teaching the Faith, but rather restricts us to not teaching things opposed to the faith. If someone believes there is some practical benefit in some parenting method or other, for instance, it is OK to propose that method here. That does not imply the method, suggestion, or favored point of view is a direct corollary of Church teaching, only that it is compatible with living according to Church teaching.

With over a billion souls in the Church, some of us will be spread all along the political spectrum. Since there is more than one way to form a just society, there is no reason we cannot co-exist peacefully in spite of that. Someone can be far more conservative than we are without being “hyper-conservative,” just as someone might be far more politically liberal than we are without being “hyper-liberal” with respect to Church teaching.

I agree we are entitled to our own views and opinions, but when people start saying that another poster is doing something wrong simply because they are doing the minimum required versus the maximum allowed, it is unjust. As both fall into the range of doing exactly what the church requires. What costs a poster a small amount of difficulty, may cost another poster all that they have to give. But both should be held equally in praise and esteem for following the Church’s teaching.

hmmm I kinda have the opposite view. It would seem to me that there is a good case of realativism. On the spectrum of religious forums of the Catholic flavor, I would say that this is one of the most anti “conservative” Not necessarily in “leadership” or moderation, but in terms of discussion by the general public. In any one of the “is this a sin” posts I have seen many people who claim to be more Catholic than the Church offering de facto binding and loosing of sins… One can only pray that people could be at least as Catholic as the Pope…

I don’t agree with the first part, but we should all be as Catholic as the Pope. We should also avoid making others do more or less than the pope asks/requires. No one needs a heavier cross to bear than necessary.

 

[Xantippe]

I don’t agree with the first part, but we should all be as Catholic as the Pope. We should also avoid making others do more or less than the pope asks/requires. No one needs a heavier cross to bear than necessary.

As my husband says (normally with regard to housework)–adequate is good enough.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Perhaps an example. A quick glance at the topics being discussed reveals perhaps one that is “conservative” in nature. But there are many others that either have no liberal conservative bend or are liberal in nature. Could you list some examples?

 

[EasterJoy]

I agree we are entitled to our own views and opinions, but when people start saying that another poster is doing something wrong simply because they are doing the minimum required versus the maximum allowed, it is unjust. As both fall into the range of doing exactly what the church requires. What costs a poster a small amount of difficulty, may cost another poster all that they have to give. But both should be held equally in praise and esteem for following the Church’s teaching.

As I said, I’d need to hear the case before saying too much. I certainly can’t sign on with a universal expectation that everyone deserves the same praise and esteem regardless of whether they are on the minimum or maximum end of an obligation. There is a middle ground between that and “whatever is not forbidden is required.”

For instance, the Church only requires us to receive Holy Communion once a year but earnestly recommends that Catholics do so far more frequently than that. While it is true that an obligation can be dispensed depending on the circumstances such that it is theoretically possible for a Catholic to go even longer than a year without receiving Holy Communion without sinning, it does not follow that someone who avails himself or herself of the sacraments as infrequently as possible without literally violating canon law ought to expect a great deal of praise or esteem for that.

Who expects any praise or esteem for doing the minimum the law requires, after all? That’s not even a conservative/liberal thing.

 

[EasterJoy]

As my husband says (normally with regard to housework)–adequate is good enough.

I say that any landing you walk away from is a good one, but it doesn’t follow that I’ll get any aviation awards for barely managing bring the plane back in one piece.

 

[alphawoman]

Perhaps an example. A quick glance at the topics being discussed reveals perhaps one that is “conservative” in nature. But there are many others that either have no liberal conservative bend or are liberal in nature. Could you list some examples?

See all of StGerardMagella’s posts in this thread:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=980371&page=5

Sever posters decry the purported immodesty of breastfeeding in public here, including one poster who questions the legitimacy of the Pope’s invitation to mothers to beast feed in Mass:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=978412

Admonitions from a childless, unmarried OP that people with less than large families aren’t really Catholic, and are just selfishly giving into secular selfishness by having smaller families:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=980089

Opinions not reflective of Church teaching stating that seniors could not marry due to inability to procreate:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=980018

I also see a lot of misinformation about licitness of NFP use at all, of use of hormonal medications used to treat medical conditions, about the “failure” of spouses of porn addicts to render the “marital debt” in the face of betrayal. There is a lot of nonsense being spun here.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

See all of StGerardMagella’s posts in this thread:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=980371&page=5

Sever posters decry the purported immodesty of breastfeeding in public here, including one poster who questions the legitimacy of the Pope’s invitation to mothers to beast feed in Mass:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=978412

Admonitions from a childless, unmarried OP that people with less than large families aren’t really Catholic, and are just selfishly giving into secular selfishness by having set families:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=980089

That is one poster who is not particularly active and actual has some other posts that would be on the “liberal” end of the spectrum. I agree their postings were on the extreme side but just the fact that they elicited such reaction kind of belies the point that the forums are run amok with these “conservatives” Go ahead and see the many threads in this sub forum with thousands of posts and hundreds of threads that would skew liberal or relativistic. I mean there is a posting about how hard it is to be beautiful… Not exactly a playground for the conservative or traditional minded.
As a conservative and traditional Catholic I have been frustrated with the lack of obedience or faith that I see on these particular forums. I find this to be the norm with your example to be the short lived exceptions. That being said I think the forums can provide a levelheaded and educational aspect to the faith. And I think as much as people wish to bend over backwards in the name of charity to those who may not be as faithful as they should be, that we should extend the same to those who may be caught up in a more rigid philosophy.

 

[alphawoman]

HoosierDaddy, I’m going to go out on a limb and suggest that the labels “liberal” and “conservative” are irrelevant. We should be concerned about what is doctrinal, and what is not or, rather, what is true or false. If posters are promoting views that are inconsistent with Catholc teaching, we need to be vocal about the truth.

In other words, it’s not an issue of the directionality of deviation from Church teaching of a given post but, rather, an issue of the absolute value of the deviation being nontrivially larger than zero.

 

[Xantippe]

HoosierDaddy, I’m going to go out on a limb and suggest that the labels “liberal” and “conservative” are irrelevant. We should be concerned about what is doctrinal, and what is not or, rather, what is true or false. If posters are promoting views that are inconsistent with Catholc teaching, we need to be vocal about the truth.

In other words, it’s not an issue of the directionality of deviation from Church teaching of a given post but, rather, an issue of the absolute value of the deviation being nontrivially larger than zero.

Right.

 

[HungerNThirst4R]

Yes, I have definitely seen this several times and it is in part the reason why I am not on this site too often. I have even messaged a person who was converting but becoming discouraged from what people were posting on here. I had to encourage him to read Scripture and the Catechism because despite the name of the site, people on here do not have the last say with matters of the faith. As a graduate theology student I’ve even had a few “” or “” moments on here. I think the best we can do is be humble and continue to study the faith.

 

[truthquester]

…or has Family Life at CAF been getting a little hyper-conservative as of late? A good case of “being more Catholic than the Pope?” I fear we are going to be doing more harm than good this way. Lets us not lead others into unnecessary despair or hopelessness. Please stop making things up and saying its “what God (or the Church) wants” ! Please stick to only OFFICIAL Catholic Church teaching! Thank you!

I agree with you. That is one of the things that keeps me out of all of the churches. It causes a fair bit of misery. God gave us free will to decide things for ourselves, not have somebody shove their ideas about how they think other people should feel, think, live ect. ect. while saying it is what the church wants for what God wants from us.

What I like is being able to ask for guidance on how I should make decisions given any given situation and be able to deal with the feelings I do have and not repress what I do feel, seeing as how I am not supposed to feel this way or that way.

It even says in the good book not to govern or regulate over people, but stand beside them not above.
I also read somewhere that even the commandments were not meant to be burdensome. The way many religion present things sometimes, it gives the impression that sinners are not welcome. Too many rules and it can become very burdensome, I don’t think that is the way we were meant to live, Jesus sacrificed Himself for our freedom to live abundantly, not burdened.

I do however, admire the original teachings of the Catholic church but I so far have decided not to convert for just that reason.

 

[LongingSoul]

HoosierDaddy, I’m going to go out on a limb and suggest that the labels “liberal” and “conservative” are irrelevant. We should be concerned about what is doctrinal, and what is not or, rather, what is true or false. If posters are promoting views that are inconsistent with Catholc teaching, we need to be vocal about the truth.

In other words, it’s not an issue of the directionality of deviation from Church teaching of a given post but, rather, an issue of the absolute value of the deviation being nontrivially larger than zero.

Yes rather than liberal/conservative I see it is the age old problem of legalism. People using the letter of the law… normally expressed by the medieval theologians… to promote a belief or attitude far removed from the Christianity the law was made to promote.

 

[Xantippe]

Yes rather than liberal/conservative I see it is the age old problem of legalism. People using the letter of the law… normally expressed by the medieval theologians… to promote a belief or attitude far removed from the Christianity the law was made to promote.

Right. Legalism is what gets condemned virtually non-stop in the Gospels.

Also, as G.K. Chesterton notes, a heresy is often a real truth that is taken just a little too far. For instance, celibacy is a real good, but insisting that everybody be celibate is a heresy. Likewise, Christ is true man, but anybody who thought that means he must not be true God is a heretic. And vice versa. (I believe there’s a lot of discussion in this in Heretics and/or Orthodoxy.) The Pharisees were right to believe in keeping the Sabbath, but wrong to believe that the Sabbath was so important that keeping it justified letting people go hungry or be left ill if we had some way to treat them.

I think it’s very tempting to believe that if something is true, it cannot be taken too far, but the truth is that only a truth is going to be attractive enough–true enough–to be capable of being distorted and taken too far. For instance, too modernize Chesterton’s example, bodily autonomy and personal dignity are real things, but to believe that they justify abortion is heresy. Likewise, chastity is real and important, but it’s wrong to act as though people with sexual sin in their pasts are wrecked forever.

 

[jmjZelie]

Right. Legalism is what gets condemned virtually non-stop in the Gospels.

Also, as G.K. Chesterton notes, a heresy is often a real truth that is taken just a little too far. For instance, celibacy is a real good, but insisting that everybody be celibate is a heresy. Likewise, Christ is true man, but anybody who thought that means he must not be true God is a heretic. And vice versa. (I believe there’s a lot of discussion in this in Heretics and/or Orthodoxy.) The Pharisees were right to believe in keeping the Sabbath, but wrong to believe that the Sabbath was so important that keeping it justified letting people go hungry or be left ill if we had some way to treat them.

I think it’s very tempting to believe that if something is true, it cannot be taken too far, but the truth is that only a truth is going to be attractive enough–true enough–to be capable of being distorted and taken too far. For instance, too modernize Chesterton’s example, bodily autonomy and personal dignity are real things, but to believe that they justify abortion is heresy. Likewise, chastity is real and important, but it’s wrong to act as though people with sexual sin in their pasts are wrecked forever.

What a great explanation of how errors in beliefs work! Thank you. I will have to read more of Chesterton’s works.

 

[pianistclare]

Yes rather than liberal/conservative I see it is the age old problem of legalism. People using the letter of the law… normally expressed by the medieval theologians… to promote a belief or attitude far removed from the Christianity the law was made to promote.

This is EXACTLY it.

 

[SWolf]

That is one poster who is not particularly active and actual has some other posts that would be on the “liberal” end of the spectrum. I agree their postings were on the extreme side but just the fact that they elicited such reaction kind of belies the point that the forums are run amok with these “conservatives” Go ahead and see the many threads in this sub forum with thousands of posts and hundreds of threads that would skew liberal or relativistic. I mean there is a posting about how hard it is to be beautiful… Not exactly a playground for the conservative or traditional minded.
As a conservative and traditional Catholic I have been frustrated with the lack of obedience or faith that I see on these particular forums. I find this to be the norm with your example to be the short lived exceptions. That being said I think the forums can provide a levelheaded and educational aspect to the faith. And I think as much as people wish to bend over backwards in the name of charity to those who may not be as faithful as they should be, that we should extend the same to those who may be caught up in a more rigid philosophy.

I was going to reply, but you did a much better job at conveying exactly my thoughts.

Thanks.