Is it just me...

[SWolf]

…or has Family Life at CAF been getting a little hyper-conservative as of late? A good case of “being more Catholic than the Pope?” I fear we are going to be doing more harm than good this way. Lets us not lead others into unnecessary despair or hopelessness. Please stop making things up and saying its “what God (or the Church) wants” ! Please stick to only OFFICIAL Catholic Church teaching! Thank you!

The homeschooling thread was downright vile. Perhaps both sides need to look in the mirror.

Also, it’s a forum where people are asking questions. Expect responses, including ones one may not like. If some responses ruffle some feathers, that’s a good thing. It’s better to have an intense discussion than an echo chamber.

 

[adrift]

See all of StGerardMagella’s posts in this thread:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=980371&page=5

Sever posters decry the purported immodesty of breastfeeding in public here, including one poster who questions the legitimacy of the Pope’s invitation to mothers to beast feed in Mass:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=978412

Admonitions from a childless, unmarried OP that people with less than large families aren’t really Catholic, and are just selfishly giving into secular selfishness by having smaller families:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=980089

Opinions not reflective of Church teaching stating that seniors could not marry due to inability to procreate:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=980018

I also see a lot of misinformation about licitness of NFP use at all, of use of hormonal medications used to treat medical conditions, about the “failure” of spouses of porn addicts to render the “marital debt” in the face of betrayal. There is a lot of nonsense being spun here.

I checked a few of these out and found your characterization to be false. For instance the one on children are beautiful nowhere in the OP makes any of the statement you claim. Fraggle doesn’t say they are less Catholic or selfish but it is promoting large families and the beauty of having children.

The one on older couples marrying was a question which was answered in the negative reflecting the teaching of the Catholic Church. I didn’t bother with the others as such a glaring misrepresentation of those two makes your critique less than reliable.

 

[dedo]

…or has Family Life at CAF been getting a little hyper-conservative as of late? A good case of “being more Catholic than the Pope?” I fear we are going to be doing more harm than good this way. Lets us not lead others into unnecessary despair or hopelessness. Please stop making things up and saying its “what God (or the Church) wants” ! Please stick to only OFFICIAL Catholic Church teaching! Thank you!

There seems to be a trap that people can fall into in their spiritual journey of believing that God exists, and then “playing God”.

This is usually acted out on people who seem to be vulnerable or hurting, and someone will take this as an opportunity to weave a web of innuendo that makes the OP feel condemned or guilty of something. Such posters almost always imply that their post is “official Catholic teaching”, and they almost never suggest the OP seek expert counsel from his / her parish priest or an expert author / counselor. Occasionally one of these people is arrogant enough to disagree with the Pope himself.

I believe this kind of poster drives people away from religion, and is analogous to the Pharisees of the ancient world.

We should all avoid this trap.

In Pope Francis’ last Homily he reminded us that love almost always is built on a foundation of small acts of kindness.

 

[Xantippe]

The homeschooling thread was downright vile. Perhaps both sides need to look in the mirror.

Also, it’s a forum where people are asking questions. Expect responses, including ones one may not like. If some responses ruffle some feathers, that’s a good thing. It’s better to have an intense discussion than an echo chamber.

It wasn’t a question of “sides” in the homeschooling thread. It was one poster on one side and pretty much everybody else on the other.

 

[Convert_in_99]

Thank you all for your replies. I’m glad to know I’m not alone in this!

Conservative/liberal were definitely the wrong terms. Politics tend to get ugly fast! Its more of an agreeing with Jesus’s condemnation of the Scribes and Pharasies. Being over-zealous and over-scrupulous and making this appear to be the only way to salvation is leading precious souls who may not be as blessed with strength to live such a strict way of life to tend towards despair and hopelessness. So the “Scribes and Pharasies” making these burdens so heavy for others to carry, rather than steering them away from “presumed” sin can actually lead them into “real” sins of despair and hopelessness.

ETA: I just found in the AAA forum that one of the CAFs lovely priests agrees and puts it in much better terms than I could. Here’s the link:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=980362

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I do think that many times we (in general as humans) like to point our fingers at others and condemn them as wrong. But this manifests itself in other ways as well. I think the “pharasee” idea is often misunderstood or overplayed as an example to not live up to the Holiest version of ourselves. Jesus did condemn those rigid legalists because the Law became something that did not have “heart” and mind. But then, as Jesus directs us from legalism he points us to something even harder than following the Law, which is proclaiming the Law and generally asking others to do HARDER things than they believe themselves capable of. So while the Church and indeed the perfect version of Catholic faith becomes something that should be sacrificial.

Do you ever stop to think how fragile our own faith lives have become. We read about saints who we hold up as unlivable idols but in reality they are to show us how to be members of the eternal Church. All of us are called to die to ourselves, to do MORE than we can do with only our own weak wills and do the impossible for God. The Bible is more full of the examples of this than of the condemnation of those who “only follow the Law”

We see family life posts about how we have first world money problems as to why we cannot have more children. Why a boat on the water for a week is a valid reason to miss the sacrifice of the foot of the Cross of Our Lord, about how we cannot fast because of an allergy to some kind of Chemical in H2O. And then we look to the saints to tell us it is ok? And we hate those who cause us to look at ourselves and expect more from ourselves? We shout Pharasee! and Hypocrite! And we look to the manta of daytime TV talk shows “You don’t Know me!” And we type our lives on the computers for all to see only to condemn and judge those who see things a little different than we do. This is the problem, that in modern society the Law we cling to is the one that says not to follow all the Laws…

Sometimes I see a lot of justifications, and guilt in the knee jerk reactions of complaining that others are Pharasees.

And sometimes yes, others are just simply judgmental jerks…

But ultimately shouldn’t we extend this same charity to all? The idea that those who push us to become better, to become more obedient Catholics might, just might, have a point worth some introspection? Jesus easily led those away from judgmental crowds. But then he placed a harder even more difficult law to follow on them. A cross to bear, to carry to death to this world and to service to His kingdom. Which is hard and has “laws” of its own. So perhaps as we chow down on our shelfish wrapped in pork we could see that sometimes we are indeed called to a Law to follow and an obedience to the Church who has the binding and loosing of that Law.

 

[Xantippe]

I do think that many times we (in general as humans) like to point our fingers at others and condemn them as wrong. But this manifests itself in other ways as well. I think the “pharasee” idea is often misunderstood or overplayed as an example to not live up to the Holiest version of ourselves. Jesus did condemn those rigid legalists because the Law became something that did not have “heart” and mind. But then, as Jesus directs us from legalism he points us to something even harder than following the Law, which is proclaiming the Law and generally asking others to do HARDER things than they believe themselves capable of. So while the Church and indeed the perfect version of Catholic faith becomes something that should be sacrificial.

Do you ever stop to think how fragile our own faith lives have become. We read about saints who we hold up as unlivable idols but in reality they are to show us how to be members of the eternal Church. All of us are called to die to ourselves, to do MORE than we can do with only our own weak wills and do the impossible for God. The Bible is more full of the examples of this than of the condemnation of those who “only follow the Law”

We see family life posts about how we have first world money problems as to why we cannot have more children. Why a boat on the water for a week is a valid reason to miss the sacrifice of the foot of the Cross of Our Lord, about how we cannot fast because of an allergy to some kind of Chemical in H2O. And then we look to the saints to tell us it is ok? And we hate those who cause us to look at ourselves and expect more from ourselves? We shout Pharasee! and Hypocrite! And we look to the manta of daytime TV talk shows “You don’t Know me!” And we type our lives on the computers for all to see only to condemn and judge those who see things a little different than we do. This is the problem, that in modern society the Law we cling to is the one that says not to follow all the Laws…

Sometimes I see a lot of justifications, and guilt in the knee jerk reactions of complaining that others are Pharasees.

And sometimes yes, others are just simply judgmental jerks…

But ultimately shouldn’t we extend this same charity to all? The idea that those who push us to become better, to become more obedient Catholics might, just might, have a point worth some introspection? Jesus easily led those away from judgmental crowds. But then he placed a harder even more difficult law to follow on them. A cross to bear, to carry to death to this world and to service to His kingdom. Which is hard and has “laws” of its own. So perhaps as we chow down on our shelfish wrapped in pork we could see that sometimes we are indeed called to a Law to follow and an obedience to the Church who has the binding and loosing of that Law.

I think what I’d say to that is that we don’t get to choose other people’s crosses for them–the crosses come without our finding one and tying it on to our weaker brethren.

They already have crosses and we have ours.

 

[Xantippe]

Also, one little thing that I’ve learned the last few years is that everybody has problems. (And not just “first world” problems.)

If you think somebody doesn’t have problems and that their life is perfect and trouble-free, it’s because you don’t know them very well.

One of my cousins seemed to have a charmed DINK lifestyle. Blonde, slender, beautiful house, great income, etc. But, then her husband left her for his pregnant girlfriend. You see, my cousin was infertile. Oh, and the house wound up hugely underwater (financially speaking).

I’m SO glad that I never said one of those stupid things that people say to childless people to my poor cousin.

 

[LongingSoul]

I think what I’d say to that is that we don’t get to choose other people’s crosses for them–the crosses come without our finding one and tying it on to our weaker brethren.

They already have crosses and we have ours.

That’s the Luke passage…

Woes on the Pharisees and the Experts in the Law

37 When Jesus had finished speaking, a Pharisee invited him to eat with him; so he went in and reclined at the table. 38 But the Pharisee was surprised when he noticed that Jesus did not first wash before the meal.

39 Then the Lord said to him, “Now then, you Pharisees clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside you are full of greed and wickedness. 40 You foolish people! Did not the one who made the outside make the inside also? 41 But now as for what is inside you—be generous to the poor, and everything will be clean for you.

42 “Woe to you Pharisees, because you give God a tenth of your mint, rue and all other kinds of garden herbs, but you neglect justice and the love of God. You should have practiced the latter without leaving the former undone.

43 “Woe to you Pharisees, because you love the most important seats in the synagogues and respectful greetings in the marketplaces.

44 “Woe to you, because you are like unmarked graves, which people walk over without knowing it.”

45 One of the experts in the law answered him, “Teacher, when you say these things, you insult us also.”

46 Jesus replied, “And you experts in the law, woe to you, because you load people down with burdens they can hardly carry, and you yourselves will not lift one finger to help them.

47 “Woe to you, because you build tombs for the prophets, and it was your ancestors who killed them. 48 So you testify that you approve of what your ancestors did; they killed the prophets, and you build their tombs. 49 Because of this, God in his wisdom said, ‘I will send them prophets and apostles, some of whom they will kill and others they will persecute.’ 50 Therefore this generation will be held responsible for the blood of all the prophets that has been shed since the beginning of the world, 51 from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, this generation will be held responsible for it all.

52 “Woe to you experts in the law, because you have taken away the key to knowledge. You yourselves have not entered, and you have hindered those who were entering.”

53 When Jesus went outside, the Pharisees and the teachers of the law began to oppose him fiercely and to besiege him with questions, 54 waiting to catch him in something he might say. - Luke 11 37-52

 

[maryjk]

I think what I’d say to that is that we don’t get to choose other people’s crosses for them–the crosses come without our finding one and tying it on to our weaker brethren.

They already have crosses and we have ours.

Exactly.

 

[PhiloMed]

I think what I’d say to that is that we don’t get to choose other people’s crosses for them–the crosses come without our finding one and tying it on to our weaker brethren.

They already have crosses and we have ours.

Exactly. Additionally, everyone has a different tolerance level for stress. I have a family member who is absolutely beside herself whenever she has to make a decision of almost any kind. She needs a new car and had to go see a therapist because the weight of making the decision of which car to buy had her anxious, sleepless and unable to eat. Obviously, her cross is the anxiety and not the new car, but externally we may only see what appears to be a trivial issue.

We really don’t know everyone’s life or how well they can handle their burdens.

 

[bitterhope]

I think what I’d say to that is that we don’t get to choose other people’s crosses for them–the crosses come without our finding one and tying it on to our weaker brethren.

They already have crosses and we have ours.

We don’t get to pick their crosses but they really don’t get to just cast it aside when the get tired of it of it either. It really isn’t good to let people think that all choices that are made with our free will are equally holy and good. People need to develop resiliency and become confident that God is going to make sure we are given what our soul needs to grow in holiness. People that find peace and joy are the same people that roll with the punches, bounce instead of get crushed, are ping pong balls instead of eggs, or however you want to picture it.

 

[Xantippe]

We don’t get to pick their crosses but they really don’t get to just cast it aside when the get tired of it of it either. It really isn’t good to let people think that all choices that are made with our free will are equally holy and good. People need to develop resiliency and become confident that God is going to make sure we are given what our soul needs to grow in holiness. People that find peace and joy are the same people that roll with the punches, bounce instead of get crushed, are ping pong balls instead of eggs, or however you want to picture it.

Nobody is talking about tossing away their kids, I hope?

 

[pianistclare]

yup.
And people tend to confuse “harder” with “holier”.

Plenty of people live just peachy lives and are holy. You don’t have suffer horrible pain to be holy.
You have to be holy wherever you find yourself.
Nobody tosses aside a cross. It doesn’t work that way. It’s just that some people are private about theirs, and other reach out for support. Wherever they can find it.
I kind of think that’s the best strength of CAF. Support, not a “you’re doing it wrong because that’s not the way I do it” thing.

 

[bitterhope]

Nobody is talking about tossing away their kids, I hope?

Kids should never be viewed as a cross. That’s very sad if people have a view such as that.

 

[jmjZelie]

Kids should never be viewed as a cross. That’s very sad if people have a view such as that.

Not the kids themselves, but parenthood in general is indeed a cross. We are to learn how to die to ourselves through our vocation. I love my kids, but I do find motherhood to be a cross. It is very very hard, especially right now. Thank goodness they are so adorable.

 

[jmjZelie]

yup.
And people tend to confuse “harder” with “holier”.

Plenty of people live just peachy lives and are holy. You don’t have suffer horrible pain to be holy.
You have to be holy wherever you find yourself.
Nobody tosses aside a cross. It doesn’t work that way. It’s just that some people are private about theirs, and other reach out for support. Wherever they can find it.
I kind of think that’s the best strength of CAF. Support, not a “you’re doing it wrong because that’s not the way I do it” thing.

I am one of those that impose harder upon myself because I am desperate to become holier…and then I burn out or become discouraged.

Maybe I should read the Screwtape Letters, because I think I read an excerpt where that is a diabolical plot.

But I don’t impose that upon others, tying up burdens and refusing to lift fingers to help. I typically assume that others are fighting battles of which I am unaware.

We don’t get to pick our own crosses or toss them aside. Our Lord Jesus was a carpenter. He has perfectly measured and weighed our crosses and laid them gently on our backs, and then when we stumble He helps us by carrying us.

 

[pianistclare]

I am one of those that impose harder upon myself because I am desperate to become holier…and then I burn out or become discouraged.

Maybe I should read the Screwtape Letters, because I think I read an excerpt where that is a diabolical plot.

But I don’t impose that upon others, tying up burdens and refusing to lift fingers to help. I typically assume that others are fighting battles of which I am unaware.

We don’t get to pick our own crosses or toss them aside. Our Lord Jesus was a carpenter. He has perfectly measured and weighed our crosses and laid them gently on our backs, and then when we stumble He helps us by carrying us.

 

[bitterhope]

I am not going to stand by and let people twist the meaning of what I write to pretend I was attacking them or someone else. It serves no purpose. I don’t think I am holier than anyone else. I don’t believe everyone who does things differently are evil. There are posters that have been seriously wounded by the way they have been attacked by regulars in CAF recently. It needs to stop. Any alternative view presented, if it doesn’t match to what certain posters want to hear, is immediately trampled, twisted, and harped upon. It isn’t right and some good people have been hurt. Quite a few have actually. Please stop. It can’t be good for anyone for this to continue.

I won’t argue this point any more, tomorrow I go back to normal life and won’t have time for all this anyway.

 

[jmjZelie]

I am not going to stand by and let people twist the meaning of what I write to pretend I was attacking them or someone else. It serves no purpose. I don’t think I am holier than anyone else. I don’t believe everyone who does things differently are evil. There are posters that have been seriously wounded by the way they have been attacked by regulars in CAF recently. It needs to stop. Any alternative view presented, if it doesn’t match to what certain posters want to hear, is immediately trampled, twisted, and harped upon. It isn’t right and some good people have been hurt. Quite a few have actually. Please stop. It can’t be good for anyone for this to continue.

I won’t argue this point any more, tomorrow I go back to normal life and won’t have time for all this anyway.

Bitterhope,
I wasn’t twisting the meaning of your words. I am sorry you felt that I was. I was merely responding with my own thoughts. I never even thought that you were holier than thou, let alone tried to say that about you. I didn’t mean to hurt you or anyone. I am sorry. :crying: