Is it just me...

[bitterhope]

Bitterhope,
I wasn’t twisting the meaning of your words. I am sorry you felt that I was. I was merely responding with my own thoughts. I never even thought that you were holier than thou, let alone tried to say that about you. I didn’t mean to hurt you or anyone. I am sorry. :crying:

No it’s not you. Please know that’s not the case. You are not one of posters that have been hurting people recently–some of them quite deeply. I don’t post here often because I don’t have time so I can honestly take it or leave it. But a few of these hurt people are regulars that thought they had friends. It’s not just one person either. It’s very hard to sit back and watch people get hurt. But no, I see you to be a sweet person who only wants goodness and love to be spread. Please know I see you as friend. I’m sorry you thought I was speaking of you.

 

[jmjZelie]

No it’s not you. Please know that’s not the case. You are not one of posters that have been hurting people recently–some of them quite deeply. I don’t post here often because I don’t have time so I can honestly take it or leave it. But a few of these hurt people are regulars that thought they had friends. It’s not just one person either. It’s very hard to sit back and watch people get hurt. But no, I see you to be a sweet person who only wants goodness and love to be spread. Please know I see you as friend. I’m sorry you thought I was speaking of you.

Okay good, bitterhope. I was so worried I had hurt you. I had seen some people getting hurt on here lately. In fact, I used to be a CAF member here years ago under a different name, but left because I got hurt and I saw a lot of drama. But I came back to CAF after our big move recently, because I am struggling with the loneliness and missing my friends and parish that we had to leave behind. God bless you!

 

[lifeisbeautiful]

Okay good, bitterhope. I was so worried I had hurt you. I had seen some people getting hurt on here lately. In fact, I used to be a CAF member here years ago under a different name, but left because I got hurt and I saw a lot of drama. But I came back to CAF after our big move recently, because I am struggling with the loneliness and missing my friends and parish that we had to leave behind. God bless you!

I know it is tough… There are so very many lovely people on here, with wonderful insight, but at times I have left temporarily because I have felt discouraged, like I wasn’t being encouraged to try to be better, to strive for holiness, but to be ok with lukewarmness… doing the minimum.

Here is an excerpt from an article
[POPE FRANCIS

MORNING MEDITATION IN THE CHAPEL OF THE
DOMUS SANCTAE MARTHAE

Am I alive inside?

Tuesday, 18 November 2014](Am I alive inside? (18 November 2014) | Francis)

“The Word of God can change everything” but we “don’t always have the courage to believe” in it. During the Mass at Santa Marta on Tuesday, Pope Francis spoke about the “three calls to conversion” from the day’s liturgy, explaining that “converting is not an act of will”; one doesn’t think: “I’ll convert now, it’s convenient…”, or “I have to do it”. No, conversion “is a grace”; it’s “a visit from God: it’s the Son of Man who has come to seek and to save”; it’s Jesus “who knocks at our door, at our heart, and says: ‘Come’”.

What then, are these three calls? The first is found in the Book of Revelation (3:1-6, 14-22), where the Lord calls the Christians to convert because they have become “lukewarm”. The Pontiff explained that “Christianity, the spirituality of convenience: is neither too much nor too little”. It is the attitude of those who say: “Don’t worry… I’ll do what I can, I’m at peace, and I don’t want to be bothered with anything out of the ordinary”. This is the case of those who feel comfortable and say: “I need nothing. I go to Mass on Sundays, I pray a few times, I feel fine, I’m ‘in God’s grace’, I’m rich, I’m enriched with grace, I don’t need anything, I’m fine”.

This frame of mind, Francis emphasized, “is a state of sin: spiritual convenience is a state of sin”. And indeed, we read in Revelation: “For you say, I am rich, I have prospered, and I need nothing; not knowing that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked”. The Lord does not mince words with “these comfortable Christians”, to whom “He says everything to their face”. We also read in the Scripture: “because you are lukewarm, I will spew you out of my mouth”. This expression, the Pope noted, is “very harsh”. At the same time, in order to help the Christians to convert, the Lord counsels them to clothe themselves, because “the comfortable Christians are naked”. After a harsh word, the Lord then “draws a little closer and speaks with tenderness: ‘so be zealous and repent’”. This, the Pontiff said, is “the call to conversion: ‘I’m at the door and I’m knocking’”. Thus, the Lord turns to the “faction of the comfortable, of the lukewarm” and calls them to “convert from spiritual comfort, from this state of mediocrity”.

 

[MomaMary8]

I am not going to stand by and let people twist the meaning of what I write to pretend I was attacking them or someone else. It serves no purpose. I don’t think I am holier than anyone else. I don’t believe everyone who does things differently are evil. There are posters that have been seriously wounded by the way they have been attacked by regulars in CAF recently. It needs to stop. Any alternative view presented, if it doesn’t match to what certain posters want to hear, is immediately trampled, twisted, and harped upon. It isn’t right and some good people have been hurt. Quite a few have actually. Please stop. It can’t be good for anyone for this to continue.

I won’t argue this point any more, tomorrow I go back to normal life and won’t have time for all this anyway.

:console:

 

[MomaMary8]

I know it is tough… There are so very many lovely people on here, with wonderful insight, but at times I have left temporarily because I have felt discouraged, like I wasn’t being encouraged to try to be better, to strive for holiness, but to be ok with lukewarmness… doing the minimum.

Here is an excerpt from an article
[POPE FRANCIS

MORNING MEDITATION IN THE CHAPEL OF THE
DOMUS SANCTAE MARTHAE

Am I alive inside?

Tuesday, 18 November 2014](Am I alive inside? (18 November 2014) | Francis)

Wasn’t our visit from our Papa a beautiful reminder to keep pushing ourselves, to think outside our comfort zone, and ask “what can I do?” He has really added to my list of things to examine at night!

 

[Xantippe]

Kids should never be viewed as a cross. That’s very sad if people have a view such as that.

I know you’ve probably left, but I have to ask, if you didn’t mean that kids were a cross that must be carried, what did you mean?

you wrote: We don’t get to pick their crosses but they really don’t get to just cast it aside when the get tired of it of it either. It really isn’t good to let people think that all choices that are made with our free will are equally holy and good. People need to develop resiliency and become confident that God is going to make sure we are given what our soul needs to grow in holiness. People that find peace and joy are the same people that roll with the punches, bounce instead of get crushed, are ping pong balls instead of eggs, or however you want to picture it.

and I replied: Nobody is talking about tossing away their kids, I hope?

What were you talking about if that wasn’t about children or parenthood as a cross that must be borne?

I think there may be a little confusion here.

Where I would agree with you (as far as I can understand you) is that we need to learn to cope with our particular situation as best we can.

However, beyond that, there are obvious differences of opinion.

1. In dealing with their particular situations, I believe that mothers and fathers often need help and shouldn’t feel bad about getting it, either paid or free. I know that I have achieved more as a parent with other people’s help than I could have all by myself. I am thankful to my husband, my sister, my in-laws, my friends, my kids’ therapists (physical therapy, speech therapy, whatever), the volunteers at the therapeutic riding ranch, the student leaders of social skills groups, my oldest’s psychologists, my kids’ teachers, understanding principals at school, the kids at school that respect and have shown compassion to my oldest, my old babysitters (we used to have a million college sitters when we lived on campus), my pediatrician’s clinic, etc, etc.

Knock on wood, but my kids are turning out great, and I know it’s not just me or them, but it’s because of the hard work of literally dozens of other people.

1. I believe that before jumping into new responsibilities, we ought to think long and hard about how the new responsibilities will interact with our current responsibilities.

Planning and prudence isn’t somehow ungodly–in fact, prudence is explicitly one of the 7 virtues. As it says in Luke 14: “28 For which of you, desiring to build a tower, does not first sit down and count the cost, whether he has enough to complete it? 29 Otherwise, when he has laid a foundation, and is not able to finish, all who see it begin to mock him, 30 saying, ‘This man began to build, and was not able to finish.’ 31 Or what king, going to encounter another king in war, will not sit down first and take counsel whether he is able with ten thousand to meet him who comes against him with twenty thousand? 32 And if not, while the other is yet a great way off, he sends an embassy and asks terms of peace.”

 

[Xantippe]

I do think that many times we (in general as humans) like to point our fingers at others and condemn them as wrong. But this manifests itself in other ways as well. I think the “pharasee” idea is often misunderstood or overplayed as an example to not live up to the Holiest version of ourselves. Jesus did condemn those rigid legalists because the Law became something that did not have “heart” and mind. But then, as Jesus directs us from legalism he points us to something even harder than following the Law, which is proclaiming the Law and generally asking others to do HARDER things than they believe themselves capable of. So while the Church and indeed the perfect version of Catholic faith becomes something that should be sacrificial.

Do you ever stop to think how fragile our own faith lives have become. We read about saints who we hold up as unlivable idols but in reality they are to show us how to be members of the eternal Church. All of us are called to die to ourselves, to do MORE than we can do with only our own weak wills and do the impossible for God. The Bible is more full of the examples of this than of the condemnation of those who “only follow the Law”

We see family life posts about how we have first world money problems as to why we cannot have more children. Why a boat on the water for a week is a valid reason to miss the sacrifice of the foot of the Cross of Our Lord, about how we cannot fast because of an allergy to some kind of Chemical in H2O. And then we look to the saints to tell us it is ok? And we hate those who cause us to look at ourselves and expect more from ourselves? We shout Pharasee! and Hypocrite! And we look to the manta of daytime TV talk shows “You don’t Know me!” And we type our lives on the computers for all to see only to condemn and judge those who see things a little different than we do. This is the problem, that in modern society the Law we cling to is the one that says not to follow all the Laws…

Sometimes I see a lot of justifications, and guilt in the knee jerk reactions of complaining that others are Pharasees.

And sometimes yes, others are just simply judgmental jerks…

But ultimately shouldn’t we extend this same charity to all? The idea that those who push us to become better, to become more obedient Catholics might, just might, have a point worth some introspection? Jesus easily led those away from judgmental crowds. But then he placed a harder even more difficult law to follow on them. A cross to bear, to carry to death to this world and to service to His kingdom. Which is hard and has “laws” of its own. So perhaps as we chow down on our shelfish wrapped in pork we could see that sometimes we are indeed called to a Law to follow and an obedience to the Church who has the binding and loosing of that Law.

I’ll get back to the Pharisees, because it’s an interesting question, what was wrong with them?

Briefly:

1. They were majoring in minors.
2. They were ignoring important stuff

I’d compare it to scrupulosity. As with scrupulosity, the stuff that the Pharisee obsesses over is often not their actual sin or biggest area of inadequacy. They are being tempted to hyper-focus on something that’s good enough while ignoring other actual duties. (For instance, getting major brownie points for dedicating their property to the temple while neglecting indigent parents–Mark 7:9-13)

So, for example, there are other things mentioned in the Bible than having a large family. Lots of stuff, in fact.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I’ll get back to the Pharisees, because it’s an interesting question, what was wrong with them?

Briefly:

1. They were majoring in minors.
2. They were ignoring important stuff

I’d compare it to scrupulosity. As with scrupulosity, the stuff that the Pharisee obsesses over is often not their actual sin or biggest area of inadequacy. They are being tempted to hyper-focus on something that’s good enough while ignoring other actual duties. (For instance, getting major brownie points for dedicating their property to the temple while neglecting indigent parents–Mark 7:9-13)

So, for example, there are other things mentioned in the Bible than having a large family. Lots of stuff, in fact.

I agree with the assessment but what in the world does having a large family have to do with anything? I think you and I will never see eye to eye on this so why bring it up?

 

[Xantippe]

I agree with the assessment but what in the world does having a large family have to do with anything? I think you and I will never see eye to eye on this so why bring it up?

Well, if one were obsessing over having a large family (and over whether other people were having a large enough family) to the exclusion of other major parts of the Christian life, there would be an analogy to the Pharisees.

On a somewhat different note:

Benedict XVI was one of three children, two of whom became priests.

John Paul II was also one of three children, but an older sister died before he was born, so he grew up with only one sibling.

I wonder if those two popes’ parents were good enough Catholics?

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Well, if one were obsessing over having a large family (and over whether other people were having a large enough family) to the exclusion of other major parts of the Christian life, there would be an analogy to the Pharisees.

On a somewhat different note:

Benedict XVI was one of three children, two of whom became priests.

John Paul II was also one of three children, but an older sister died before he was born, so he grew up with only one sibling.

I wonder if those two popes’ parents were good enough Catholics?

oh geesh…



Perhaps you could start a thread on that…

 

[pianistclare]

Well, so…we’re back on topic!

I think this is precisely what this thread speaks to.
People who disagree get slammed.
People with stats and facts get slammed.
Everything is hunky dory while people pat each other on the back. Have a difference of opinion? Not allowed.
People are being “mean” “uncharitable” “posting too much” etc.
Meanwhile, some common misconceptions and outright falsehoods go unchecked out of fear of offending.
Crazy.

As a dear friend said recently: “Some people bite off more internet than they can chew”.

I’m out.

 

[bitterhope]

Well, if one were obsessing over having a large family (and over whether other people were having a large enough family) to the exclusion of other major parts of the Christian life, there would be an analogy to the Pharisees.

On a somewhat different note:

Benedict XVI was one of three children, two of whom became priests.

John Paul II was also one of three children, but an older sister died before he was born, so he grew up with only one sibling.

I wonder if those two popes’ parents were good enough Catholics?

It is not really helpful to use to families that did not have access to NFP as it’s known today to as examples. It proves that God may very well have a small number of kids in mind for a specific couple without any attempt to avoid them.

Look, the obsession I notice about family size has been from people who seem to feel the need to share their reasons for avoiding children. When people over share information they open themselves up to opposing views. It’s human nature at it’s worst. NFP doesn’t work for everyone so they may hear that pregnancy is still possible. ABC is immoral so they may hear they can’t use it. Some reasons are rather worldly so they may hear about generosity. If it offends, so be it. That’s what happens when you ask strangers for advice or tell them your life story.

The other obsession with family size I have noticed is that if someone speaks of the beauty of a large family and that it’s a blessing, automatically it is knocked down as hateful and judgmental of people that are infertile or those that choose to have smaller families. It alright to be proud of your family and there is a long catholic tradition of admiring large families. That does not mean that anyone views small families as bad. Most parents of big families realize the blessing God gave us and know it’s a rare gift. We are thankful.

 

[LongingSoul]

Well, if one were obsessing over having a large family (and over whether other people were having a large enough family) to the exclusion of other major parts of the Christian life, there would be an analogy to the Pharisees.

On a somewhat different note:

Benedict XVI was one of three children, two of whom became priests.

John Paul II was also one of three children, but an older sister died before he was born, so he grew up with only one sibling.

I wonder if those two popes’ parents were good enough Catholics?

It comes back to Pope Francis astute denunciation of ideologues and ideological Christianity. The large family of faithful Catholics that contributed to Catholic life are an obviously great witness to Catholic family living. But it’s not a higher demonstration of holiness on a hierarchy of holy living. The holiness we experience comes from listening to Gods plan for our lives and living that to the full. We can never know what God is asking of another person and it’s certainly very anti Christian to try and impose our idea of ‘holiness’ based on our vocation… onto others.

 

[LongingSoul]

That does not mean that anyone views small families as bad. Most parents of big families realize the blessing God gave us and know it’s a rare gift. We are thankful.

Unfortunately we are regularly regaled with the argument that if a starving African woman can have a lot of children, is it legitimate for a well fed Western family to have less than that. It’s an obvious attempt to guilt trip western families with a less number of children than the ideologue has, into believing that they are not following Catholic teaching.

 

[Convert_in_99]

Well, so…we’re back on topic!

I think this is precisely what this thread speaks to.
People who disagree get slammed.
People with stats and facts get slammed.
Everything is hunky dory while people pat each other on the back. Have a difference of opinion? Not allowed.
People are being “mean” “uncharitable” “posting too much” etc.
Meanwhile, some common misconceptions and outright falsehoods go unchecked out of fear of offending.
Crazy.

As a dear friend said recently: “Some people bite off more internet than they can chew”.

I’m out.

Exactly! We are turning this website into a circus act. Think about how people on the outside coming to visit this site and check out our Faith must think. I’d take one look at us morons and run as fast as I could the other way!

Quit the browbeating, bullying, the nitpicking, the bickering and fighting and for heaven’s sake if you can’t post something nice don’t post it at all. I didn’t create this thread as a place to continue the madness and fighting, but was hoping we could all figure out how to get along better and find common middle ground. Not that we can’t have our own opinions, but let them be known to be your opinions and not shame others into thinking they can’t be Catholic or holy if they don’t measure up to your higher standards of holiness.

 

[PPeterson]

I find this website to be one of the most hostile I read, and see it as a “guilty pleasure.” Seething with passive aggression!

 

[EasterJoy]

…or has Family Life at CAF been getting a little hyper-conservative as of late? A good case of “being more Catholic than the Pope?” I fear we are going to be doing more harm than good this way. Lets us not lead others into unnecessary despair or hopelessness. Please stop making things up and saying its “what God (or the Church) wants” ! Please stick to only OFFICIAL Catholic Church teaching! Thank you!

How did we draw a direct correlation between “hyper-conservative” and Catholics who pose their own opinion and saying its “what God (or the Church) wants”?

There is a ditch on both sides of the road, on the right and on the left. For instance, Our Holy Father has cautioned confessors, the dispensers of mercy, to be neither too strict nor too lax, as both fail the penitent in need of reconciliation.

 

[LongingSoul]

How did we draw a direct correlation between “hyper-conservative” and Catholics who pose their own opinion and saying its “what God (or the Church) wants”?

There is a ditch on both sides of the road, on the right and on the left. For instance, Our Holy Father has cautioned confessors, the dispensers of mercy, to be neither too strict nor too lax, as both fail the penitent in need of reconciliation.

That’s why it’s probably astute that Pope Francis has introduced the notion of the temptation to ‘fundamentalism’ into the conversation recently. He says all religions and groups can fall prey to a fundamentalist approach. A recent example here that comes to mind involved the issue of a wife’s duty to have sex with a spouse who is addicted to porn. There is one argument that the wifes duty is commanded by the biblical precept of marital debt and spousal submission as per Ephesians. That would be an example of a very ultra conservative position used in the context of a very liberal argument… highlighting a common flaw below both conservative or liberal stances.

 

[Xantippe]

It is not really helpful to use to families that did not have access to NFP as it’s known today to as examples. It proves that God may very well have a small number of kids in mind for a specific couple without any attempt to avoid them.

Look, the obsession I notice about family size has been from people who seem to feel the need to share their reasons for avoiding children. When people over share information they open themselves up to opposing views. It’s human nature at it’s worst. NFP doesn’t work for everyone so they may hear that pregnancy is still possible. ABC is immoral so they may hear they can’t use it. Some reasons are rather worldly so they may hear about generosity. If it offends, so be it. That’s what happens when you ask strangers for advice or tell them your life story.

The other obsession with family size I have noticed is that if someone speaks of the beauty of a large family and that it’s a blessing, automatically it is knocked down as hateful and judgmental of people that are infertile or those that choose to have smaller families. It alright to be proud of your family and there is a long catholic tradition of admiring large families. That does not mean that anyone views small families as bad. Most parents of big families realize the blessing God gave us and know it’s a rare gift. We are thankful.

1. Abstinence has always been an option, so I wouldn’t necessarily assume that there was no effort being made to avoid in the case of a smallish late 19th century/early 20th century Central European family.

My husband is from Central Europe, also, and from what I recall of his family tree, those devout Central European Catholic families of the early 20th century were not very big. (There was a whole bunch of stuff going on in the early 20th century in Central Europe.)

1. There is actually a lot of talk about achieving pregnancy among people who are trying to achieve pregnancy. At least in my experience.
2. In the “Babies are Beautiful” thread (which you seem to be referring to), the OP was not just praising large families, but urging pretty much everyone to do likewise.

That’s bound to result in some pushback.

 

[SWolf]

1. Abstinence has always been an option, so I wouldn’t necessarily assume that there was no effort being made to avoid in the case of a smallish late 19th century/early 20th century Central European family.

My husband is from Central Europe, also, and from what I recall of his family tree, those devout Central European Catholic families of the early 20th century were not very big. (There was a whole bunch of stuff going on in the early 20th century in Central Europe.)

1. There is actually a lot of talk about achieving pregnancy among people who are trying to achieve pregnancy. At least in my experience.

Fertility issues are extremely common, and it’s silly to assume that because a couple had a small family it was planned that way, especially in past generations that would consider a family that could only have two children as a sad cross to bear. A 19th century couple would be incredibly confused and disheartened by our modern conception of family. Back then, marriage was first and foremost about having children. Fertility issues also are passed in a person’s genes, as I have seen in branches of my own family tree, so a small extended family tree is not evidence in itself of family planning by abstinence.

The vast majority of couples would not be able to reproduce like the Duggars, even if they wanted to. About a third of the married couples I know had difficulty conceiving even one, requiring them to get medical help, and these were young people. Another third have had pregnancy complications that made it impossible to have further children. My own mother was ordered not to try and have further children after her third. Stubborn woman she is, she ignored them and had more.