Is it just me...

  • Thread starter Thread starter Convert_in_99
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Art321, which position do you espouse? That couples with 4 or less children are by default unholy barring some fatal condition… or that people should keep having as many children as their fertile lifecycle allows without family planning naturally according to your personal vocation?
Well, as I said in my previous post this is not a matter of faith or morals in terms of how many children you have. The Church tells us to be open to life and leave the rest to God. If one couple only has one child, God bless them. If they want and have 10, 11, 12, God bless them.

I would caution for responsible parenthood as Pope Francis said several months back, but they should not rely on contraception for this matter. NFP from what I have read here and once talked about on EWTN works wonders, but I can’t say this through my own experience since I’m not married.
 
I think there is a distinction here:
  1. actual “hard sayings” and actual difficult teachings of the Church
  2. people making stuff up
We’re primarily talking about category #2 in this thread and Jesus dealt a lot with it, too.

Again, I think there’s often an OCD/scrupulous flavor to #2, and it seems to have the effect of distracting people from other stuff. It’s not that the OCD/scrupulous person has no sins, but that they keep plugging away at the one area where things are more or less OK.
Yes, I do believe that we were talking about #1 between Hoosier Daddy and myself, but overall this thread has revolved around #2.
 
…or has Family Life at CAF been getting a little hyper-conservative as of late? :o A good case of “being more Catholic than the Pope?” I fear we are going to be doing more harm than good this way. Lets us not lead others into unnecessary despair or hopelessness. Please stop making things up and saying its “what God (or the Church) wants” ! Please stick to only OFFICIAL Catholic Church teaching! Thank you! 👍
Yes, I do believe that we were talking about #1 between Hoosier Daddy and myself, but overall this thread has revolved around #2.
Because according to the OP, THAT is what the thread is about. 🤷
 
Because according to the OP, THAT is what the thread is about. 🤷
Yes, of course. I was merely pointing that out except for the brief moment in which Hoosier Daddy and Myself talked about the other issue of Catholics not accepting Church teaching at all.
 
Well, let’s not forget unmarried celibacy is considered higher than married life:

Matthew 19:10

Also, large families ARE considered the ideal for married couples to aspire to:

onepeterfive.com/pope-pius-xii-large-catholic-families/

Obviously myself, and most others here, could not handle celibacy, as we were not given that gift. Many of us were not capable of having large families either. There’s no perfection, but that shouldn’t make a difference in what we strive for.
I was just realizing that while we’re talking about “large” families as if everybody automatically knows what that means, we don’t really know what Pius XII meant by that.

I can’t easily find a definitive answer right now, but it looks like Pius XII had one brother and two sisters–so he was from a family of four children.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Pius_XII

If somebody has better information, please share.

When he said "“Large families are the most splendid flower-beds in the garden of the Church; happiness flowers in them and sanctity ripens in favorable soil. Every family group, even the smallest, was meant by God to be an oasis of spiritual peace. But there is a tremendous difference: where the number of children is not much more than one, that serene intimacy that gives value to life has a touch of melancholy or of pallor about it; it does not last as long, it may be more uncertain, it is often clouded by secret fears and remorse” he might have meant a family of 4+.

The “large” family that I think a lot of us have in our heads (7+) may not be what he meant at all.

At the risk of stating the obvious, let’s not forget that the Holy Family had one (1.0) child.
 
Unfortunately we are regularly regaled with the argument that if a starving African woman can have a lot of children, is it legitimate for a well fed Western family to have less than that. It’s an obvious attempt to guilt trip western families with a less number of children than the ideologue has, into believing that they are not following Catholic teaching.
Or it could be an attempt to get one to think about their motives and justifications–something we should all be doing all the time with regards to the way we live. My experience is that if I get bent out of shape over something someone says regarding something I am doing – then it usually means I have some questions about it myself and the justifications I am using. If I am confident about what I am doing and someone says something negative–it really doesn’t bother me. We are not always artful in the way we respond to others and often our posts may not read with the tone we intended so as a rule of thumb I try to give posters the benefit of the doubt when I read their posts.

The peace of Christ,
Mark
 
Or it could be an attempt to get one to think about their motives and justifications–something we should all be doing all the time with regards to the way we live. My experience is that if I get bent out of shape over something someone says regarding something I am doing – then it usually means I have some questions about it myself and the justifications I am using. If I am confident about what I am doing and someone says something negative–it really doesn’t bother me. We are not always artful in the way we respond to others and often our posts may not read with the tone we intended so as a rule of thumb I try to give posters the benefit of the doubt when I read their posts.

The peace of Christ,
Mark
One of the things that I’ve noticed is that it is easy identify flaws in what could be called liberal/progressive perspectives, but there’s many times a profound inability to self examine in the traditionalist mentality, hence an insatiable desire to impute ungodliness to others.

We know through official Church teaching that couples are not to be interfered with in the making of their families in this way. Much of reproduction is instinctive. To some a big family is a joy. To others a small family is a joy. Divine law presupposes natural law as Aquinas said and procreation is very much guided by the life of the species at an aboriginal level.

Another misrepresentation is that NFP can be a contraceptive if one is not reproducing to a specific divine standard. That is simply not true and causes a serious deficiency in the understanding of the evil of contraception. Pope StJPII went so far as to say that even when a couple adopts NFP without a full appreciation of conjugal meaning and procreation… the actual practice of periodic abstinence and fertility awareness used correctly, by default causes a growth in marital intimacy over time just by its nature.

I have 3 children of marriageable age and I’ve tried to impart all that I know of Catholic teaching on marriage, even though I know it is a hard road in this modern world. I don’t want them to be burdened by ideas that claim to be holy but so often lead to corruption of the love that marriage should be. We need to stick to the teachings of the Church. Marriage deserves that.
 
Or it could be an attempt to get one to think about their motives and justifications–something we should all be doing all the time with regards to the way we live. My experience is that if I get bent out of shape over something someone says regarding something I am doing – then it usually means I have some questions about it myself and the justifications I am using. If I am confident about what I am doing and someone says something negative–it really doesn’t bother me. We are not always artful in the way we respond to others and often our posts may not read with the tone we intended so as a rule of thumb I try to give posters the benefit of the doubt when I read their posts.

The peace of Christ,
Mark
I’m not sure this is always true. There are certain areas that tend to be highly personal and sensitive, to the point that even if one is doing the right thing, criticism (or comments that can be construed as such) can result in anger, anxiety, and defensiveness.

I’m told that for some men, especially those highly invested in their jobs, that their careers can be such an area. For example, another guy making a disparaging comment about the area that a man works in, or the effort he’s putting into it, can result in anger and irritation, even if a guy is working hard and generally doing a good job in a morally good or neutral field.

On the other hand, childbearing/feeding tend to be areas that can affect women in that regard. When DD was an infant, I wasn’t able to breastfeed for various reasons, despite the efforts and assistance of numerous medical personnel and lactation consultants. I knew I gave it a good try–as it happens, I tried harder than anyone I’ve ever met–but it didn’t work, so I fed DD formula, on which she thrived. I also had a C-section because she couldn’t be delivered the usual way; babies who insist on trying to come out sideways simply don’t fit that way. 😉

On an intellectual level, I could look at the fact that I had a C-section and formula fed, and know they were certainly the correct choices for us in those circumstances. Without the former, we’d have both died a really horrible death, and without the latter, unless I could find another woman to nurse DD, she’d have starved. No one with half a brain, knowing the circumstances in question, would doubt that those were the right choices. Nonetheless, it took me a very long time to not feel the overwhelming urge to break down in angry, defensive tears every time someone asked me if I was breastfeeding, or why I had a C-section, or something similar. Why? Because those options, in our society’s understanding of motherhood, touch on the fundamental question of whether I was a good mother, and in many circles, especially Catholic moms’ circles, to not breastfeed or deliver naturally is seen as a moral flaw on the part of the mom, as a decision that makes them less of a mother. This is, of course, wrong, but it’s a deeply emotional subject because it has to do with one’s moral and spiritual worth.

Now, I was able to separate my intellectual knowledge from my feelings on the subjects (ie, “Without these things, which are, in fact, morally neutral, we’d both be dead, so I’m grateful for them”) from my emotional reaction (“only a bad mother would have a C-section or formula feed, and you aren’t a real mother because you made those decisions, and you’re a bad Catholic mother to boot.”) Eventually, I was able to (mostly) conform my emotions to my intellect, but it took time, as I imagine it does most people who make such highly-emotionally-charged decisions.

I should think that the decision to use NFP to avoid may well be similar for a lot of families, in that a couple might decide intellectually “for our family at this time, we should avoid having more children if possible because of X, Y, or Z good reason, and we’ll re-evaluate if those reasons change at some point” but still feel attacked and emotional when they hear something like “Catholic families should strive to be large,” even though it would be an objectively unwise idea to add to that particular family at that particular time, and they’re doing nothing wrong in using NFP to avoid.
 
Or it could be an attempt to get one to think about their motives and justifications–something we should all be doing all the time with regards to the way we live. My experience is that if I get bent out of shape over something someone says regarding something I am doing – then it usually means I have some questions about it myself and the justifications I am using. If I am confident about what I am doing and someone says something negative–it really doesn’t bother me. We are not always artful in the way we respond to others and often our posts may not read with the tone we intended so as a rule of thumb I try to give posters the benefit of the doubt when I read their posts.

The peace of Christ,
Mark
There’s also the issue of spiritual and psychological damage to more sensitive third parties.

Scrupulosity is a thing.
 
I’m not sure this is always true. There are certain areas that tend to be highly personal and sensitive, to the point that even if one is doing the right thing, criticism (or comments that can be construed as such) can result in anger, anxiety, and defensiveness.

I’m told that for some men, especially those highly invested in their jobs, that their careers can be such an area. For example, another guy making a disparaging comment about the area that a man works in, or the effort he’s putting into it, can result in anger and irritation, even if a guy is working hard and generally doing a good job in a morally good or neutral field.

On the other hand, childbearing/feeding tend to be areas that can affect women in that regard. When DD was an infant, I wasn’t able to breastfeed for various reasons, despite the efforts and assistance of numerous medical personnel and lactation consultants. I knew I gave it a good try–as it happens, I tried harder than anyone I’ve ever met–but it didn’t work, so I fed DD formula, on which she thrived. I also had a C-section because she couldn’t be delivered the usual way; babies who insist on trying to come out sideways simply don’t fit that way. 😉

On an intellectual level, I could look at the fact that I had a C-section and formula fed, and know they were certainly the correct choices for us in those circumstances. Without the former, we’d have both died a really horrible death, and without the latter, unless I could find another woman to nurse DD, she’d have starved. No one with half a brain, knowing the circumstances in question, would doubt that those were the right choices. Nonetheless, it took me a very long time to not feel the overwhelming urge to break down in angry, defensive tears every time someone asked me if I was breastfeeding, or why I had a C-section, or something similar. Why? Because those options, in our society’s understanding of motherhood, touch on the fundamental question of whether I was a good mother, and in many circles, especially Catholic moms’ circles, to not breastfeed or deliver naturally is seen as a moral flaw on the part of the mom, as a decision that makes them less of a mother. This is, of course, wrong, but it’s a deeply emotional subject because it has to do with one’s moral and spiritual worth.

Now, I was able to separate my intellectual knowledge from my feelings on the subjects (ie, “Without these things, which are, in fact, morally neutral, we’d both be dead, so I’m grateful for them”) from my emotional reaction (“only a bad mother would have a C-section or formula feed, and you aren’t a real mother because you made those decisions, and you’re a bad Catholic mother to boot.”) Eventually, I was able to (mostly) conform my emotions to my intellect, but it took time, as I imagine it does most people who make such highly-emotionally-charged decisions.

I should think that the decision to use NFP to avoid may well be similar for a lot of families, in that a couple might decide intellectually “for our family at this time, we should avoid having more children if possible because of X, Y, or Z good reason, and we’ll re-evaluate if those reasons change at some point” but still feel attacked and emotional when they hear something like “Catholic families should strive to be large,” even though it would be an objectively unwise idea to add to that particular family at that particular time, and they’re doing nothing wrong in using NFP to avoid.
Right.
 
One of the things that I’ve noticed is that it is easy identify flaws in what could be called liberal/progressive perspectives, but there’s many times a profound inability to self examine in the traditionalist mentality, hence an insatiable desire to impute ungodliness to others.
Right. Well stated.
 
Although I do agree with you that there are many viewpoints that agree or disagree with Church teaching, I can’t imagine how it is true with regards to Catholic theology.
There is nothing new under the sun. Theological differences of opinion go all the way back to the Garden of Eden.
Orthodox Catholic theology has always been in line with regards to what has always been taught throughout the universal Church. In what respects is Catholic theology different from what is taught in orthodox Catholic universities in America compared to those orthodox Catholic universities in Europe or the Philippines??
I see little in the way of “orthodoxy”, unless one become a Carthusian.
 
Much of reproduction is instinctive. To some a big family is a joy. To others a small family is a joy. Divine law presupposes natural law as Aquinas said and procreation is very much guided by the life of the species at an aboriginal level.
.
This is very interesting. I like that you said this because I have never really stopped to think about this. It is true that society can exert peer pressure on people with regards to family planning, and that is often unjust, but your point about parents planning more by instinct is very thought provoking. It also gives greater reason for a person to stop and charitably assume the best possible intentions with regards to other people’s family planning. I am one of those people who never ask about such matters, but with whom many people seem compelled to share anyway. I am not jumping to judgement. I honestly find it fascinating to hear why people plan their families the way they do. But in listening, I want to keep in mind what you say as well, that instinct plays a huge role. Because we accept and honor when people act on a gut instinct about other aspects of life. Why shouldn’t we afford the same respect to a person’s instincts about family size?
 
This is very interesting. I like that you said this because I have never really stopped to think about this. It is true that society can exert peer pressure on people with regards to family planning, and that is often unjust, but your point about parents planning more by instinct is very thought provoking. It also gives greater reason for a person to stop and charitably assume the best possible intentions with regards to other people’s family planning. I am one of those people who never ask about such matters, but with whom many people seem compelled to share anyway. I am not jumping to judgement. I honestly find it fascinating to hear why people plan their families the way they do. But in listening, I want to keep in mind what you say as well, that instinct plays a huge role. Because we accept and honor when people act on a gut instinct about other aspects of life. Why shouldn’t we afford the same respect to a person’s instincts about family size?
There’s also the question–can a couple be said to be sinning if they don’t engage in marital relations when neither of them wishes to engage in marital relations?

Because that’s the situation with the abstaining NFP couple–they don’t want to have sex, so they don’t have sex.

It’s hard to see where the sin is in that situation.

(It’s trickier if one member of the couple does want to, but I think it’s essentially a non-issue when both members of the couple are in agreement.)
 
One of the things that I’ve noticed is that it is easy identify flaws in what could be called liberal/progressive perspectives,
It’s because many liberal/progressive ideas are anathema to the Catholic Faith.
but there’s many times a profound inability to self examine in the traditionalist mentality, hence an insatiable desire to impute ungodliness to others.
Yup, progs never infer ungodliness in others. Posts like this prove it. Pot, meet kettle.
 
It’s because many liberal/progressive ideas are anathema to the Catholic Faith.

Yup, progs never infer ungodliness in others. Posts like this prove it. Pot, meet kettle.
Longing Soul is very much a moderate, well-versed Catholic by posting history.
This remark is uncalled for.
 
It’s because many liberal/progressive ideas are anathema to the Catholic Faith.

Yup, progs never infer ungodliness in others. Posts like this prove it. Pot, meet kettle.
How kind of you to prove proof of LongingSoul’s point right there. :rolleyes:
 
There’s also the question–can a couple be said to be sinning if they don’t engage in marital relations when neither of them wishes to engage in marital relations?

Because that’s the situation with the abstaining NFP couple–they don’t want to have sex, so they don’t have sex.

It’s hard to see where the sin is in that situation.

(It’s trickier if one member of the couple does want to, but I think it’s essentially a non-issue when both members of the couple are in agreement.)
Of coarse you can’t “see” the sin. Sin lies in a person’s heart.

CCC 1873 The root of all sins lies in man’s heart. The kinds and the gravity of sins are determined principally by their objects.

This is why the spiritual works of Mercy are important. We must help to instruct others to examine their hearts (motives)behind their actions. Instruct. Not condemn, we leave that to God. May God have mercy on us if we have poorly instructed others into sin.
 
Of coarse you can’t “see” the sin. Sin lies in a person’s heart.

CCC 1873 The root of all sins lies in man’s heart. The kinds and the gravity of sins are determined principally by their objects.

This is why the spiritual works of Mercy are important. We must help to instruct others to examine their hearts (motives)behind their actions. Instruct. Not condemn, we leave that to God. May God have mercy on us if we have poorly instructed others into sin.
When is chastity a sin? :confused:
 
When is chastity a sin? :confused:
That’s the point! One must look in their own heart, knowing the precepts of the Church. Motives for our actions are important in determining if we sinned, as well as the matter.

CCC # 1850 Sin is an offense against God: "Against you, you alone, have I sinned, and done that which is evil in your sight."122 Sin sets itself against God’s love for us and turns our hearts away from it. Like the first sin, it is disobedience, a revolt against God through the will to become "like gods,"123 knowing and determining good and evil. Sin is thus "love of oneself even to contempt of God."124 In this proud self- exaltation, sin is diametrically opposed to the obedience of Jesus, which achieves our salvation.125
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top