Is it just me...

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You seemed to be implying that we post to *promote *a position and “tell people posting/asking questions that it is really pretty much impossible to use NFP for the wrong motives”.

The reality is that we post to counter a position that promotes nfp as only licit in extreme life and death circumstances. That quiverfull theory is the ‘default’ and that family planning is only a response to visible impediments like physical ill health and poverty.

The other reality is that selfishness in acting is a temptation for anyone no matter their lifestyle choices. Even someone as holy as to walk through the streets wearing a hair rope and flagellating themselves… could be acting on selfish reasons. Those selfish reasons could also account for someone choosing to have a lot of children.

Everybody knows that one of the loveliest witnesses to the Catholic attitude is a large and loving family, walking among us emanating the glory of God, contributing to the whole of society by their faith and generosity. But even a small loving family is a better witness than the large one who feel superior and sinless and positioned to judge others by their own code.
Longingsoul, I was posting what I have encountered on here, I wasn’t saying you specifically are promoting anything.
(BTW I do agree that acting superior and judging others is wrong and very unattractive, regardless of family size, and we as Christians are supposed to be the opposite, but this is not at odds with what I was stating in my other posts)
 
Longingsoul, I was posting what I have encountered on here, I wasn’t saying you specifically are promoting anything.
It would help for clarity if you could link to posts that assert that “it is really pretty much impossible to use NFP for the wrong motives”. I don’t believe that myself and know for certain that I’ve never stated that despite being a very vocal contributor to this issue over the years.
 
On a somewhat different subject, I’m afraid that your suggestion to endlessly examine motives is going to be an invitation down the scrupulosity rabbit hole for a lot of CAFers.

Motivations are a very murky area. Am I giving to charity because I am charitable, or because I want other people to think well of me and to think well of myself? Should I stop giving to charity until I am sure that I am giving for the right reason?

I think I would encourage people to figure out what the right thing to do is and do it, rather than expending a lot of energy on either endlessly examining possible bad motives or on self-congratulation–those both being two possible opposite abuses of self-reflection.
If you were concerned that you might be giving to charity because you want others to think well of you–you could always give anonymously–no need to stop giving.

What should be our goal in life? To become saints–i.e. to get to heaven, correct? If you give to charity in order to get others to think well of you – where is your treasure and where are you storing it?

I seemed to have missed the post that said we needed to “endlessly” examine our motives–as if we can’t simply from time to time examine them. Do you think examining our motivations is a bad thing? I could be mistaken but you seem to have an either or attitude regarding this–as if one can’t do both–act and examine our motives. As if all self-reflection leads to abuse in one direction or the other. All I pointed out was that when I get bent out of shape over something someone says regarding something I am doing – it usually means I have some questions about it deep down and I need to check the justifications I am using. I don’t have to be a teetotaler or a raging alcoholic I can simply have a glass of wine or two at dinner. I think we can examine our motivations without going down a rabbit hole–when something that occurs suggests that maybe we should.

The peace of Christ,
Mark
 
From my perspective–If I felt like that regarding my job–I would guess I would be asking myself if I should be that invested in my job–i.e. should I be deriving any of my self-worth from my job? This doesn’t mean that I don’t derive some sense of identity from my job (probably more than I should)–but I kind of think that’s not where my sense of identity should come from and so It’s something I work to mitigate. I kind of think we should see our jobs as a way to provide for our families, and as something we should do to the best of our ability in order to give glory to God–not for any sense of personal accomplishment–not that I am very successful at that, but I find if I at least keep that thought in the back of my mind–it helps me keep what others say in perspective.

I don’t know that I should speak for my wife regarding this–we bottle fed all five of our children–we did what was best for us and our children at the time and we just didn’t worry about what other people thought regarding it. Given that the Church doesn’t teach that failing to breast feed or deliver naturally are moral flaws – when people make such claims or imply them–we just didn’t take it seriously–in a way we just shake our heads and feel sorry for those people. Our children are healthy and doing well–health wise they’re better off than many of their breast fed peers who suffer from every sort allergy and food intolerance. Given this you can see that I do suffer from pride. I will say if my wife struggled in an area, with guilt, it would have been with regards to working–but that was due the uncertainty of whether or not it was the right thing to be doing–and this in a society that tends to affirm working at the right thing to do.

I wasn’t intending to make a blanket statement–just presenting an alternative way to view someones statements, pointing out something I think we should be doing in regards to our motivations–and addressing what I find about myself and my reactions to others comments–generally.

The peace of Christ,
Mark
Your knock on breastfeeding goes to the point of this thread. Some women breastfeed because it keeps their husband from expecting/demanding sex a week or two postpartum. Others breastfeed because they had a difficult and/or surgical delivery and nursing helps them not feel unnatural and maintain a connection to the baby. And others breastfeed because of a terror of messing up formula feeding. These are just a few of the other categories in the list of “why women breastfeed” beyond the usual ones. And some of these reasons overlap.

Separate from all that, formula feeding is a sort of luxury good given the need for reliable clean water and sterilization equipment for it to be as ready a choice as breastfeeding. There’s a reason it became associated and remains associated outside the USA and most of the West with “movin’ on up” in the world.
 
This is very interesting. I like that you said this because I have never really stopped to think about this. It is true that society can exert peer pressure on people with regards to family planning, and that is often unjust, but your point about parents planning more by instinct is very thought provoking. It also gives greater reason for a person to stop and charitably assume the best possible intentions with regards to other people’s family planning. I am one of those people who never ask about such matters, but with whom many people seem compelled to share anyway. I am not jumping to judgement. I honestly find it fascinating to hear why people plan their families the way they do. But in listening, I want to keep in mind what you say as well, that instinct plays a huge role. Because we accept and honor when people act on a gut instinct about other aspects of life. Why shouldn’t we afford the same respect to a person’s instincts about family size?
Very well summarised, jmjZelie! Aquinas was the great natural law philosopher with regards to our approach to morality and it’s that aspect that inspires my faith in his contribution to Church teaching.

It’s too unreasonable to believe that reproduction should only depend on the fertile status of a creature and the sexual capacity to create a new life. That’s what seems to be behind the belief that the default of a married couple is to keep on having children one after the other based on the sexual desire of the couple (generally speaking, it is the sexual drive of the male that dominates and that’s the flaw in the patriarchal cults that so often leads to abuse of females and children in my opinion.)

The mores of reproduction can be seen to vary in nature such as when female creatures as a group, hide themselves or naturally shield themselves from sexual encounter with males. These responses are regarded as natural phenomenon for the benefit of the species.

In human beings our capacity for morality has to be based on our deeper understanding and appreciation of ‘relationship’. Not just empathy in the couple relationship in planning family but appreciation for our role in wider society and in the whole environment of the planet and how that is understood by us through our human nature!
 
All I pointed out was that when I get bent out of shape over something someone says regarding something I am doing – it usually means I have some questions about it deep down and I need to check the justifications I am using.
Alternately, it could mean that they are reacting to having a toxic subscript read to them as if it is legitimate Catholic teaching.
 
Your knock on breastfeeding goes to the point of this thread. Some women breastfeed because it keeps their husband from expecting/demanding sex a week or two postpartum. Others breastfeed because they had a difficult and/or surgical delivery and nursing helps them not feel unnatural and maintain a connection to the baby. And others breastfeed because of a terror of messing up formula feeding. These are just a few of the other categories in the list of “why women breastfeed” beyond the usual ones. And some of these reasons overlap.

Separate from all that, formula feeding is a sort of luxury good given the need for reliable clean water and sterilization equipment for it to be as ready a choice as breastfeeding. There’s a reason it became associated and remains associated outside the USA and most of the West with “movin’ on up” in the world.
O.k. I am baffled. Please explain how I “knocked” breastfeeding. I simply pointed out that my wife didn’t breastfeed, and that we didn’t worry about those who looked down on us for doing so or thought that our failure to breastfeed was some kind of moral flaw. I also pointed out that medically our kids are doing fine–i…e. no ill effects from not being breast fed. I am not knocking breastfeeding–if anything I would say I was sticking up for those who, for whatever reason, end up bottle feeding. I was not making a value judgment one way or the other. Or do we have a different definitions of “knock”.

The peace of Christ,
Mark
 
Alternately, it could mean that they are reacting to having a toxic subscript read to them as if it is legitimate Catholic teaching.
Yes, but I thought that was the point that was being made on this thread and so I was simply pointing out and “alternative” take to the one that I thought was being advanced. I am sure that in practice both are done.

The peace of Christ,
Mark
 
Alternately, it could mean that they are reacting to having a toxic subscript read to them as if it is legitimate Catholic teaching.
Right.

By the way, I was just looking at Margaret Sanger’s Wikipedia entry.

“Anne Higgins [Margaret Sanger’s mother] went through 18 pregnancies (with 11 live births) in 22 years before dying at the age of 49. Sanger was the sixth of eleven surviving children, and spent much of her youth assisting with household chores and caring for her younger siblings.”

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_Sanger

Apparently, being one of 11 children did not have an edifying effect on young Margaret.
 
Very well summarised, jmjZelie! Aquinas was the great natural law philosopher with regards to our approach to morality and it’s that aspect that inspires my faith in his contribution to Church teaching.

It’s too unreasonable to believe that reproduction should only depend on the fertile status of a creature and the sexual capacity to create a new life. That’s what seems to be behind the belief that the default of a married couple is to keep on having children one after the other based on the sexual desire of the couple (generally speaking, it is the sexual drive of the male that dominates and that’s the flaw in the patriarchal cults that so often leads to abuse of females and children in my opinion.)

The mores of reproduction can be seen to vary in nature such as when female creatures as a group, hide themselves or naturally shield themselves from sexual encounter with males. These responses are regarded as natural phenomenon for the benefit of the species.

In human beings our capacity for morality has to be based on our deeper understanding and appreciation of ‘relationship’. Not just empathy in the couple relationship in planning family but appreciation for our role in wider society and in the whole environment of the planet and how that is understood by us through our human nature!
Yes, we are not merely animals, whose reproductive instincts are governed solely by fertility and the urge to mate. Marital relations should be human in nature, which means that we must choose whether or not to engage in marital lovemaking. It can still be called instinctual, but it is human instinct, not animalistic. Human instinct includes things such as social cues, quality of relationships with others, quality of interactions with others, seasons of life, things irrelevant to animals such as privacy and emotional intimacy and time and comfort, physical wellbeing mental wellbeing…well, I could probably list a whole page of differences between animal instinct and truly human instincts.
I have read some wonderful treatises recently of how to handle any mismatch of libido of married couples (so common as to almost be the rule). It suggests that the best way to work out the mismatch and to keep the marital act a truly human and loving one, is for both spouses to meet in the middle. The higher libido spouse restrains him/herself somewhat so as not to fall into using the lower libido spouse. And the lower libido spouse works to be receptive more often than their own libido might prompt them. And of course, when marital relations are not a good idea for reasons of health or privacy or whatever, practicing restraint without resentment or bitterness is praiseworthy.
I know libido is not the point of this thread, but I just wanted to respond to a couple of the points in your reply.
With respect to the overall point of this thread, I am probably a traditionalist at heart. I tend toward that side of things naturally. But, and this is a big BUT ( 😃 ), I have never associated traditionalism with legalism. I think some people today, who perhaps are not traditionalists, might make the mistake to think that people who gravitate toward the traditional side of the faith are also legalists. In my experience, that is not so. There are legalists in every pocket of the Church. Some of them manifest as minimalists (advocating doing the absolute minimal to attain salvation) and some of them manifest as those who tie up burdens upon the backs of others without lifting a finger to help them. There are probably others, too, that I am not aware of. It is the middle path that we must strive for. We should know our Faith and live out our Faith with as much joy as we can muster (and I say this as I am personally going back through a particularly joyless period), and then we practice the corporal and spiritual works of mercy with love of God and love of neighbor for the love of God as the foremost thought in our mind. If we have no intention of understanding the Gospel as Jesus Christ MEANT it, and if we refuse to even attempt to see our neighbor as God sees them, then we had better zip our lips until we change our own bad attitude.
On a forum like this, it is possible to debate ideas in the abstract and it is possible to give encouragement and general advice, but it is CATHOLIC Answers, NOT Catholics ANSWER. Ergo, our opinions must not be presented as if they have magisterial backing, unless we are actually presenting magisterial teachings, ie the Catechism of the Catholic Church or other magisterial documents.
Sorry for the long rambling post. I think that just writing all this out has been helpful to me to crystallize my thinking about these ideas. I hope it has been helpful to others who read it. God bless!
 
Right.

By the way, I was just looking at Margaret Sanger’s Wikipedia entry.

“Anne Higgins [Margaret Sanger’s mother] went through 18 pregnancies (with 11 live births) in 22 years before dying at the age of 49. Sanger was the sixth of eleven surviving children, and spent much of her youth assisting with household chores and caring for her younger siblings.”

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_Sanger

Apparently, being one of 11 children did not have an edifying effect on young Margaret.
I think it was less the number of siblings and more the brutishness of her father, at least according to quotations attributed to her. She saw her mother as a victim of a brute and the Catholic Church and its prohibition on birth control as uncaring and even supportive of men using their wives. Rather than appeal to Church authorities to address the abuse of marriage, she set about to secretly give women illicit tools to defend themselves. I find it sad that she became so hard-hearted because of her observations and experiences.
There are a good number of saints who were part of very large families (St Catherine of Siena is a perfect example). The Church encourages generosity in family size, but also responsible parenthood AND moderation in the use of marriage. But also, there is a form of generosity that too often gets overlooked. And that is parenting children with special needs, whether a visible or an invisible disability, or other challenges such as learning difficulties. Parents might have a very small family, and yet be the most generous, because they are going above and beyond the duties of an average parent raising an average child. Now that is a topic I wish was on the agenda for this Synod on the Family! Heroic and generous parenthood being discussed and promoted and pastoral directives being disseminated, all for the sake of strengthening modern Catholic families as they face challenges in raising Catholic children in a modern, post-Christian, technological and information-heavy world.
 
Alternately, it could mean that they are reacting to having a toxic subscript read to them as if it is legitimate Catholic teaching.
Yes, but I was addressing my reactions. All I know is that if someone tell’s me I am doing XYZ and it’s against Church teaching, but I know that it is not–I’m not going to let it upset me, blow a gasket or worry about it. I might attempt to enter into dialog with the person to understand why they think it is Church teaching and explain why I think they are mistaken and what actual Church teaching is–that’s really all I can do, besides pray for them. If, on the other hand I am unsure and had not thought about what the person is addressing–I might attempt to enter into dialogue to seek understanding and gain a starting point for my own investigation regarding the issue–to see if my behavior does indeed need to change. And if I find myself bothered–it is usually because deep down I kind of think the person might be right or I’ve had questions about it that are not fully resolved in my mind and at that point rather than being upset or bothered that this person pricked my conscience I need to spend more time in study and reflection on the matter. This is what I find for myself–I am not advancing it as some sort of universal truth. Now I am not addressing your anti-catholic who is knowingly advancing what they know to be lies and misrepresentations of Catholic teaching–that’s a different story, but I don’t think that’s what we’ve been talking about.]

To be quite truthful–I’d get more worked up with someone unjustly accusing other posters of being a “bad Catholic” or whatever than I would if they accused me of the same thing.

The peace of Christ,
Mark
 
Yes, but I was addressing my reactions. All I know is that if someone tell’s me I am doing XYZ and it’s against Church teaching, but I know that it is not–I’m not going to let it upset me, blow a gasket or worry about it. I might attempt to enter into dialog with the person to understand why they think it is Church teaching and explain why I think they are mistaken and what actual Church teaching is–that’s really all I can do, besides pray for them. If, on the other hand I am unsure and had not thought about what the person is addressing–I might attempt to enter into dialogue to seek understanding and gain a starting point for my own investigation regarding the issue–to see if my behavior does indeed need to change. And if I find myself bothered–it is usually because deep down I kind of think the person might be right or I’ve had questions about it that are not fully resolved in my mind and at that point rather than being upset or bothered that this person pricked my conscience I need to spend more time in study and reflection on the matter. This is what I find for myself–I am not advancing it as some sort of universal truth. Now I am not addressing your anti-catholic who is knowingly advancing what they know to be lies and misrepresentations of Catholic teaching–that’s a different story, but I don’t think that’s what we’ve been talking about.]

To be quite truthful–I’d get more worked up with someone unjustly accusing other posters of being a “bad Catholic” or whatever than I would if they accused me of the same thing.

The peace of Christ,
Mark
That sounds like a very healthy method for self-examination. I think I will try to work on this. I tend to give too much weight to those who would criticize me or judge me poorly.
 
Yes, but I was addressing my reactions. All I know is that if someone tell’s me I am doing XYZ and it’s against Church teaching, but I know that it is not–I’m not going to let it upset me, blow a gasket or worry about it. I might attempt to enter into dialog with the person to understand why they think it is Church teaching and explain why I think they are mistaken and what actual Church teaching is–that’s really all I can do, besides pray for them. If, on the other hand I am unsure and had not thought about what the person is addressing–I might attempt to enter into dialogue to seek understanding and gain a starting point for my own investigation regarding the issue–to see if my behavior does indeed need to change. And if I find myself bothered–it is usually because deep down I kind of think the person might be right or I’ve had questions about it that are not fully resolved in my mind and at that point rather than being upset or bothered that this person pricked my conscience I need to spend more time in study and reflection on the matter. This is what I find for myself–I am not advancing it as some sort of universal truth. Now I am not addressing your anti-catholic who is knowingly advancing what they know to be lies and misrepresentations of Catholic teaching–that’s a different story, but I don’t think that’s what we’ve been talking about.]

To be quite truthful–I’d get more worked up with someone unjustly accusing other posters of being a “bad Catholic” or whatever than I would if they accused me of the same thing.

The peace of Christ,
Mark
But are you suggesting that when Jesus responded to the Pharisees with emotional force ie “you brood of vipers” or even physical force as with the traders at the Temple, that it must have been the response of a guilty conscience? I know that you aren’t. There can be genuine emotion in defense of moral truth.
 
But are you suggesting that when Jesus responded to the Pharisees with emotional force ie “you brood of vipers” or even physical force as with the traders at the Temple, that it must have been the response of a guilty conscience? I know that you aren’t. There can be genuine emotion in defense of moral truth.
Right.

Likewise, do we want to assert that whenever parents of large families say that they feel judged or condemned, that it’s actually their own guilty consciences speaking?

Saying that feeling bad when hearing criticism indicates guilt is a very reductionist view.
 
My understanding was that one should guard against false guilt and rash judgement, both, and be willing to charitably engage in dialogue with a person with whom we have a disagreement. Not granting them power over our emotional state but neither dismissing them out of hand.
 
I’m starting to wish I had a biography of Margaret Sanger, but the Wikipedia article also says:

“Sanger was born Margaret Louise Higgins in 1879 in Corning, New York, to Michael Hennessey Higgins, an Irish-born stonemason and free-thinker, and Anne Purcell Higgins, a Catholic Irish-American. Michael Hennessey Higgins had emigrated to the USA at age 14 and joined the U.S. Army as a drummer at age 15, during the Civil War. After leaving the army, Michael studied medicine and phrenology, but ultimately became a stonecutter, making stone angels, saints, and tombstones. Michael H. Higgins was a Catholic who became an atheist and an activist for women’s suffrage and free public education. Anne was born in Ireland. Her parents brought the family to Canada during the Potato Famine. She married Michael in 1869.”

It would be interesting to know the timing on her father’s about-face.
I think it was less the number of siblings and more the brutishness of her father, at least according to quotations attributed to her. She saw her mother as a victim of a brute and the Catholic Church and its prohibition on birth control as uncaring and even supportive of men using their wives. Rather than appeal to Church authorities to address the abuse of marriage, she set about to secretly give women illicit tools to defend themselves. I find it sad that she became so hard-hearted because of her observations and experiences.
There are a good number of saints who were part of very large families (St Catherine of Siena is a perfect example). The Church encourages generosity in family size, but also responsible parenthood AND moderation in the use of marriage. But also, there is a form of generosity that too often gets overlooked. And that is parenting children with special needs, whether a visible or an invisible disability, or other challenges such as learning difficulties. Parents might have a very small family, and yet be the most generous, because they are going above and beyond the duties of an average parent raising an average child. Now that is a topic I wish was on the agenda for this Synod on the Family! Heroic and generous parenthood being discussed and promoted and pastoral directives being disseminated, all for the sake of strengthening modern Catholic families as they face challenges in raising Catholic children in a modern, post-Christian, technological and information-heavy world.
 
I’m starting to wish I had a biography of Margaret Sanger, but the Wikipedia article also says:

“Sanger was born Margaret Louise Higgins in 1879 in Corning, New York, to Michael Hennessey Higgins, an Irish-born stonemason and free-thinker, and Anne Purcell Higgins, a Catholic Irish-American. Michael Hennessey Higgins had emigrated to the USA at age 14 and joined the U.S. Army as a drummer at age 15, during the Civil War. After leaving the army, Michael studied medicine and phrenology, but ultimately became a stonecutter, making stone angels, saints, and tombstones. Michael H. Higgins was a Catholic who became an atheist and an activist for women’s suffrage and free public education. Anne was born in Ireland. Her parents brought the family to Canada during the Potato Famine. She married Michael in 1869.”

It would be interesting to know the timing on her father’s about-face.
Yes. I have only recently discovered how interesting reading biographies can be. I find it fascinating to read about the forces and circumstances that shape people’s lives and see how they responded to them. I have started with reading biographies of saints (just finished one recently about St Pio), but have found that reading biographical articles about persons, Catholic or not, is also interesting. One person can change the world, and frequently does.

Edited to add: I just found some biographical information about Margaret Sanger that presents a different picture of her father than what I had previously seen, which suggests to me that what I had read before might have been hearsay.

It also explains that Margaret’s mother and Margaret herself suffered from tuberculosis.
 
Right.

Likewise, do we want to assert that whenever parents of large families say that they feel judged or condemned, that it’s actually their own guilty consciences speaking?

Saying that feeling bad when hearing criticism indicates guilt is a very reductionist view.
Quite right. I was blessed enough to become familiar with one of the directors of the State Bioethics Center a few years ago. (He was my spiritual director during a retreat) Fascinating work. If I’d been more gifted intellectually, that’s an area I’d have loved to pursue.

The passion for promoting a position and debunking an alternate position was so palpable. It was at a time when they were presenting a position on embryonic stem cell research to a government committee and there’s some really insidious alternate positions out there that come across as compassionate and noble. Man oh man. I literally felt like Joan of Arc at the thought of coming up against those arguments!! :knight2::knight1:
 
Right.

By the way, I was just looking at Margaret Sanger’s Wikipedia entry.

“Anne Higgins [Margaret Sanger’s mother] went through 18 pregnancies (with 11 live births) in 22 years before dying at the age of 49. Sanger was the sixth of eleven surviving children, and spent much of her youth assisting with household chores and caring for her younger siblings.”

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_Sanger

Apparently, being one of 11 children did not have an edifying effect on young Margaret.
As a mother of soon to be eleven children, I am utterly appalled at your irrational judgement!
 
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