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Michael_Francis
Guest
NAN?
- Status
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mark_a
Guest
Do atheists try to spread atheism?
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Subrosa
Guest
Lily - you are so beautiful. I could not have said it any better. It expresses the truth so well.
God bless you -
Subrosa
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Subrosa
Guest
Zeus zaps.
theoi.com/image/thumbK1.1.jpgZEUS WITH LIGHTNING
The Christian God, Christ, loves. You need to get that perspective right. I see now that you truly do not understand.
As far as consequences, they are a normal part of life. through a rock at a window - the window breaks.
Could I suggest that you have a serious look at what is going on in Christianity instead of deciding on preconceived ideas?
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Mirdath
Guest
Nancy got some of it in one
Other than the entertainment, I am genuinely curious about ‘faith’ and why it drives people to act like they do. I may not have it or want it, but I can still find it interesting, can’t I? I also find there are a lot of misconceptions among the posters here about various groups of people of which I’m either a part or well acquainted with, and dispelling such misunderstandings can only be a good thing.
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dbacks5439
Guest
First, you will have to look back to Adam and Eve. Their lives were perfect. They were blissfully content. Know why? Because they were complete, and they were complete because God was in them. After the Fall, God left them (Not that He abandoned them, He was simply rejected by Adam and Eve). Because of this, they and all of mankind have a void in their hearts, a space where God used to be. Not only that, but our hearts are turned away from God. Catholics, and all christians, do our best to turn our hearts towards God and fill it with Him. Our hearts turn away from God when we sin. For others, they attempt to fill that void with other things. Some will turn to alcohol, others to porn. Still others simply say that life is good and that they are happy. These earthly things do not fill the void. It just gives a false impression, a trick from Satan to lead you away from God. Satan has already gotten to you by making you say, “Why do I need an impersonal God to give me rules and regulations?” I hate to slam you, but the happiness you feel, isn’t your happiness. It’s Satan’s happiness. And believe me, that happiness will not last.
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Pascal's wager:
Believe in God=No Heaven or Hell
Believe in God=Heaven
Disbelieve in God=No Heaven or Hell
Disbelieve in God=Hell
A good gambler would believe in God....
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Catholic_Mike
Guest
I don’t get to choose whether God exists. God either exists or he does not, and I want to know which no matter what the answer is. So far, I believe he does.
If God exists, the more involved he is in my life, the better. I don’t understand your proposal… that even if God exists it would be better to ignore him (and consequently the purpose and source of my existance) so that I can have sex outside of marriage? I’m not impressed.
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
I know, the “God crimps my style” sounds more like your typical adoloscent criticizing a parent simply for ‘being there’, that ‘stifling’ presence that is out to stop all ‘fun’. (Of course, your adolescent, in rebellion, completely forgets any and all that same parent has done for him/her and still does, and will continue to do–the loving care, the listening ear, the careful attention to likes/dislikes, etc., the opportunities given, and forgets that the main reason he is right there complaining about those parents is because the parents took such good care of him in the first place).
Very adolescent point of view which, sadly, is not just common to adolescents. I know more than a few middle aged, not to say elderly, people who are still ‘rebelling’ in their dogged pursuit of “I want what I want and I want it NOW” lives, and despite having ‘pushed out’ God, having Nancie’s “good lives”, they are desperately empty and unhappy, sure that the next thing, job, spouse, etc. will make their lives finally completely happy, and crushed when nothing–no -thing–seems able to do so. . .
Very adolescent point of view which, sadly, is not just common to adolescents. I know more than a few middle aged, not to say elderly, people who are still ‘rebelling’ in their dogged pursuit of “I want what I want and I want it NOW” lives, and despite having ‘pushed out’ God, having Nancie’s “good lives”, they are desperately empty and unhappy, sure that the next thing, job, spouse, etc. will make their lives finally completely happy, and crushed when nothing–no -thing–seems able to do so. . .
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Mirdath
Guest
Which God?
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VociMike
Guest
I have an answer to that, but what would your answer be? How would you approach the question of “which God?” It’s not an unanswerable question, you know.
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Subrosa
Guest
Pascal’s Wager is addressed specifically to the Judeo - Christian God.
No other gods in history contain the salvific element. For instance, Zeus had multiple extramarital affairs from which several illigitimate children were born. He was concerned with only his power and status.
Many gods were specifc to certain events. In many cultures there existed gods of harvest. Each culture had it’s own god of harvest, begging the question, “Which god is the one that exists?” You may consider that all of the different harvest gods worked as a team, or some other theory, but it is merely speculation.
Each culture had gods of love, sex, rain, the land, the sea, night, day, etc., etc., etc.
Here is something to ponder - paganism had existed for thousands of years, each culture with it’s own set. Judaism existed for several millenia, but the Jews kept it to themselves.
Then Christ came along and in a mere three hundred years this religion spread throughout the known world and became the dominant system of spiritual belief. The Roman Emperor Constantine made it the religion of the empire. In reality, at that time Christianity had spread beyond the boundaries of Rome. It was as far away as India taken there by the Apostle Thomas.
Here is a truly compelling fact - in three hundred years, Christianity had overtaken all the different forms of paganism in the known world. It did so under extreme persecution and by word of mouth. A seemingly incredible feat, and yet it did happen.
Subrosa
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system
Guest
That is a good question. Imagine having a surname that went leader more times than I can count in Catholicism. Something of an old English mentality leaves a creepy feeling…
Emptiness inside should stay on Earth to be felt outside by a close friend. Not an act of God. Act of God hopefully unnecessary.
I am not christian either.Especially after a tour in the military. The closest definition to what I do, is what alot of people do. Avoiding the flock of birds always changing direction swapping leaders, and pooping on people from the skyborn mentality has always been my best spirituality.
It is not just you. We are real people in real evolution, individually.
The feeling that God is a drag is no doubt a discipline knocking on your own. Sometimes, such as my individual beliefs, that discipline is very freakin wrong- and proven.
Like the day I ran away from bible school… It is as if I stood up as a friendly 4 year old tyrant in tears and have never been doubted since.My dad said it was ok never to go back to the bible school.Reasons are out loud today aren’t they? True faith prevails and saves your life. The rest is feeding others- and they may not even be righteous…
why so many even attempt such a doubted gathering cna be summed up with statistics: 7 million christians vs the surviving billions on planet earth.
It is very simple. I am surprised you asked your question. I am here trying to read up on public messages about child molesting homosexual priests…
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Mirdath
Guest
I have actually considered it. This is what I got (postulating of course that there is a god):
- God is infinite and unbounded.
1a) Being without limit, God contains the universe (panentheism).
1b) God is not truly understandable by mere humans; even if it did choose to reveal itself to them, others not so divinely inspired would not be able to comprehend it. Those of us who remain ‘untouched’ in this way can only see vague shapes – through a glass darkly, if you will.
1c) If there is an afterlife, it is one thing within God. Hell, being the absence of God, cannot exist, for to exist it would be in God. - As God contains the universe, so too is it the prime motive force, working subtly in the background.
2a) As we are within God, our actions are always in accordance with its will – if it even has one. God is beyond good and evil; those are human ideas, and in general they serve us pretty well. But they are not the be-all and end-all.
2b) A vengeful god is a false one, for it would condemn itself. And a god who acts out of anger, pettiness, or jealousy is subservient to that emotion.
Really? What about the Hindu pantheon? What about Ahura Mazda? Osiris? Odin? The concept of an afterlife attained by right action and divine providence is neither unique to Christianity nor original to it. Not to mention the fact that several faiths which promote such a heaven don’t condemn those who don’t make it to a hell.
And if I ignore those and even the other Abrahamic faiths of Islam and Judaism, which Christian religion is the right one? There are tens of thousands out there, and every single one claims to be correct, tracing its teachings back to Jesus and the apostles. How do I know which one to choose?
Or that they worshipped one harvest deity under different names and aspects, or even that they separated out different aspects of one supreme being into different minor deities. Or what I think most likely – they were all wrong anyway.
McDonald’s has achieved far greater market penetration in a tenth the time. Yes, ideas spread, especially if they have such dedicated followers – that doesn’t make them right.
Had the Apostles subscribed to the idea that the majority must be in the right, they would have lived and died Jews.
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
Come now, I don’t believe you’ve thought your analogy through sufficiently. Perhaps you view the abstract idea of ‘religion’ as a ‘choice’ which to you is neither more nor less a ‘choice’ than picking an eating establishment, watching a particular TV program like American Idol (to continue with the ‘market penetration’ thought), etc. ?
To me, that simply indicates that as yet you do not have an accurate knowledge of what religion, and to be more specific Catholic Christianity, truly ‘is’.
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Subrosa
Guest
Quite honestly, Mirdath, you are in a safe place. You need not believe in anything.
By confusing the issue and complicating it you have drawn yourself into a whirlpool. “Which do I choose if I wish to do so?”
There are instances of miracles in all cultures and religions. Just this week I watched a news item where believers of a ertain Indian religion claim that the figure thay were carrying during a festival miraculously changed from silver to gold.
There are many miraculous instances within christianity and Judaism.
But, there is only ONE GOD WHO BECAME MAN! No other religion has come close. There are many who were men that became gods. Women, too.
If you read the links I provided you will have read the “Diary of Perpetua.” This is an acctual document from the year 202 or 203 in which a christian martyr is slaughtered by beasts after she is staked inside an arena. She was a willing participant.
What compelled her to do such a thing?
By the way - Pascal’s Wager IS addressed solely to the Judeao-Christian God.
Subrosa
By confusing the issue and complicating it you have drawn yourself into a whirlpool. “Which do I choose if I wish to do so?”
There are instances of miracles in all cultures and religions. Just this week I watched a news item where believers of a ertain Indian religion claim that the figure thay were carrying during a festival miraculously changed from silver to gold.
There are many miraculous instances within christianity and Judaism.
But, there is only ONE GOD WHO BECAME MAN! No other religion has come close. There are many who were men that became gods. Women, too.
If you read the links I provided you will have read the “Diary of Perpetua.” This is an acctual document from the year 202 or 203 in which a christian martyr is slaughtered by beasts after she is staked inside an arena. She was a willing participant.
What compelled her to do such a thing?
By the way - Pascal’s Wager IS addressed solely to the Judeao-Christian God.
Subrosa
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VociMike
Guest
So far I don’t see anything to quarrel with (assuming a fitting understanding of panentheism)
Hell is more rightly understood as separation from God, not the absence of God. I think you would acknowledge that human (and greater) beings can separate themselves from one another even if they are not absent.
I don’t think this rules in or rules out the Christian God.
Then you have denied the very foundation of free will, the ability to choose against God. OTOH, no God means we are all electro-chemical machines, which also removes the notion of free will. So it seems that you have denied free will whichever way you go.
The story of the Incarnation, Passion and Death of Christ should disabuse anybody of that notion re the Christian God.
I’ll have to look it up.
My answer to “which God” is rather simple, actually. Self-serving too, but then so is the whole Pascal’s wager approach. Which God? The God who offers the most. Divine sonship. Participation in the divine nature. Incorporation into the very life of God. Not just His presence, but His very life.
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Mirdath
Guest
I was trying to get at the spread of ideas by interested people, not fast-food religion
But I’m open to hearing how a creed isn’t something one chooses. Do we not have free will? Isn’t that the reason the Christian God chooses never to reveal himself totally – so we will have a choice?
Indeed so – if I were approaching the maelstrom as anything other than a thought experiment. I remain agnostic.
Two problems with that:
- The Son became man – on the authority of the religion that worships him, and nobody else.
- Other religions do in fact believe deities became incarnate as people. Hinduism has the avatars – not once, but many times. And Rastafarianism preaches that Hailie Selassie was God incarnate.
Faith. Whether it was justified faith, and she was indeed brought up to God’s side after her death, I cannot say for sure; but I do not think it likely. Again, Christianity is not the only religion with martyrs.
I know. And that’s only one of the Wager’s many faults.
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Mirdath
Guest
Human and greater yes, but the greatest? If God exists in everything and everything exists in God, nothing can be cut off or separated.
I prefer the concept of free won’t – given a situation, we have so many ways to respond. We choose only from those, having already ruled out things we absolutely won’t do. For instance, faced with a crying baby I’m babysitting, free will says I can smother it with a pillow. Free won’t says I’m not going to.
By the Abrahamic God’s own admission he is jealous. Further, he’s quite wrathful in the Old Testament, obliterating cities, sending plagues on people who were minding their own business but were in the wrong place, ordering his chosen people to commit genocide, punishing both the wicked and the not-so-wicked (so much for free will, I guess, if you’re going to be punished immediately for deviating). He even killed a cart driver for trying to do good when the man reached out to steady the Ark of the Covenant on its way to David.
Good, it’s pretty neat even if I don’t believe it
Why are you not a Mormon then? You get to be your very own God when you die and rule over your own planet!
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Subrosa
Guest
I have actually considered it. This is what I got (postulating of course that there is a god):
Another Judeo-Christian ideal albeit from a different viewpoint.
1b) God is not truly understandable by mere humans; even if it did choose to reveal itself to them, others not so divinely inspired would not be able to comprehend it. Those of us who remain ‘untouched’ in this way can only see vague shapes – through a glass darkly, if you will.
Another Judeo-Christian ideal
1c) If there is an afterlife, it is one thing within God. Hell, being the absence of God, cannot exist, for to exist it would be in God.
Then those who disbelieve and reject God simply return to the soil. Another Judeo-Christian Ideal. Hell is the absence of God.
This is very close to the Judeo-Christian ideal. With some differences.
2b) A vengeful god is a false one, for it would condemn itself. And a god who acts out of anger, pettiness, or jealousy is subservient to that emotion.
Christ commands us to not be vengeful, angry, petty, jealous or subserviant to that emoton. His words are that we “Love one another.” Imagine that!
The closest religion I know of is Zoroastrianism.
Which predates Judaism and Christianity and shares the belief in the One True God. The Primate of the religion was invited to the funeral of the late Pope John Paul II. Zoroastrianism and Christianity enjoy a good and fruitful relationship because of thier similarities, including the coming of a Messiah.
- God is infinite and unbounded.
A Judeo-Christian ideal
Another Judeo-Christian ideal albeit from a different viewpoint.
1b) God is not truly understandable by mere humans; even if it did choose to reveal itself to them, others not so divinely inspired would not be able to comprehend it. Those of us who remain ‘untouched’ in this way can only see vague shapes – through a glass darkly, if you will.
Another Judeo-Christian ideal
1c) If there is an afterlife, it is one thing within God. Hell, being the absence of God, cannot exist, for to exist it would be in God.
Then those who disbelieve and reject God simply return to the soil. Another Judeo-Christian Ideal. Hell is the absence of God.
- As God contains the universe, so too is it the prime motive force, working subtly in the background.
A re-worded Judeo-Christian ideal. God is non-interefering.
This is very close to the Judeo-Christian ideal. With some differences.
2b) A vengeful god is a false one, for it would condemn itself. And a god who acts out of anger, pettiness, or jealousy is subservient to that emotion.
Christ commands us to not be vengeful, angry, petty, jealous or subserviant to that emoton. His words are that we “Love one another.” Imagine that!
The closest religion I know of is Zoroastrianism.
Which predates Judaism and Christianity and shares the belief in the One True God. The Primate of the religion was invited to the funeral of the late Pope John Paul II. Zoroastrianism and Christianity enjoy a good and fruitful relationship because of thier similarities, including the coming of a Messiah.
S
Subrosa
Guest
Really? What about the Hindu pantheon? What about Ahura Mazda? Osiris? Odin?
All equals. Which is correct? All are attached to certain cultures. Which of these fullfils your requirement of being not vengeful?
God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are universal. Only THIS God, the only God, has enough love for humanity that He sent His only Son in order to be able to empathize with all of humanity and it’s sufferings. Empathy to the point of torture and death upon a cross. This addresses your point 1b. God sentHis son in order to understand humans.
The concept of an afterlife attained by right action and divine providence is neither unique to Christianity nor original to it.
Absolutely true.
Not to mention the fact that several faiths which promote such a heaven don’t condemn those who don’t make it to a hell.
The present theology on Hell is this - you get what you ask for. If you reject God, then that rejection is granted. You are given what you ask for. God does not condemn. Rather it is a consequence of your own willful actions.
And if I ignore those and even the other Abrahamic faiths of Islam and Judaism, which Christian religion is the right one? There are tens of thousands out there, and every single one claims to be correct, tracing its teachings back to Jesus and the apostles. How do I know which one to choose?
The Catholic argument. In Catholicism the measure of a true church is it’s Apostolic origin.
However, this does not exclude any religion in which a true and sincere desire to know God is an element. Even those who through no fault of thier own do not know the message of christianity, are not excluded from access to God.
This does not even exclude you. If you seek God, you will have access, even if you do not know the real truth of God. It seems to me that you are seeking.
God is merciful.
McDonald’s has achieved far greater market penetration in a tenth the time. You really don’t see the error here, do you? Christianity overran paganism by word of mouth and the mssage of a loving God who gave His life. McDonalds uses a marketing campaign, mass media and investors. And they have terribly unhealthy food.
Yes, ideas spread, especially if they have such dedicated followers – that doesn’t make them right.
You are correct. Speed of acceptence does not make one right. It is the core message of hope and love that spread Christianity so quickly.
Had the Apostles subscribed to the idea that the majority must be in the right, they would have lived and died Jews.
That is true. They did not ascribe to a majority view. In fact, but for one, they all were martyred for thier christian views.
Mirdath, It seems as though you are about 94% in conformity with Christianity.
Subrosa
All equals. Which is correct? All are attached to certain cultures. Which of these fullfils your requirement of being not vengeful?
God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are universal. Only THIS God, the only God, has enough love for humanity that He sent His only Son in order to be able to empathize with all of humanity and it’s sufferings. Empathy to the point of torture and death upon a cross. This addresses your point 1b. God sentHis son in order to understand humans.
The concept of an afterlife attained by right action and divine providence is neither unique to Christianity nor original to it.
Absolutely true.
Not to mention the fact that several faiths which promote such a heaven don’t condemn those who don’t make it to a hell.
The present theology on Hell is this - you get what you ask for. If you reject God, then that rejection is granted. You are given what you ask for. God does not condemn. Rather it is a consequence of your own willful actions.
And if I ignore those and even the other Abrahamic faiths of Islam and Judaism, which Christian religion is the right one? There are tens of thousands out there, and every single one claims to be correct, tracing its teachings back to Jesus and the apostles. How do I know which one to choose?
The Catholic argument. In Catholicism the measure of a true church is it’s Apostolic origin.
However, this does not exclude any religion in which a true and sincere desire to know God is an element. Even those who through no fault of thier own do not know the message of christianity, are not excluded from access to God.
This does not even exclude you. If you seek God, you will have access, even if you do not know the real truth of God. It seems to me that you are seeking.
God is merciful.
McDonald’s has achieved far greater market penetration in a tenth the time. You really don’t see the error here, do you? Christianity overran paganism by word of mouth and the mssage of a loving God who gave His life. McDonalds uses a marketing campaign, mass media and investors. And they have terribly unhealthy food.
Yes, ideas spread, especially if they have such dedicated followers – that doesn’t make them right.
You are correct. Speed of acceptence does not make one right. It is the core message of hope and love that spread Christianity so quickly.
Had the Apostles subscribed to the idea that the majority must be in the right, they would have lived and died Jews.
That is true. They did not ascribe to a majority view. In fact, but for one, they all were martyred for thier christian views.
Mirdath, It seems as though you are about 94% in conformity with Christianity.
Subrosa
- Status