Is it licit to support the death penalty

[soccerdad57]

In light of what Blessed JPII said regarding the death penalty - is it licit to support the death penalty or was his writting on the matter final and “ex cathedra”. Is there any ‘wiggle room’ or foreseeable circumstance in which the death penalty is fitting? I’m thinking of a recent case in which 2 men in a home invasion robbery, beat the father into submission with a baseball bat, tied up the family, raped and killed the mother and set the 2 girls on fire in their beds, killing them horribly of course. They killed his whole family in front of him and in the worst way and the father has to live out the rest of his life with that. I can’t find fault with the state for executing these 2 men, especially if it helps in any way for the father to find some relief from what happened even if knowing that in some sense, if only in a very human way at least, that justice was served. I have small children and a wife whom I love immensely myself - my family through my God is my entire world and defines the reason for my existence - if you took that away - especially in the fashion that happened to the man above, I could not bear it. Why is the death penalty wrong in this example - I gotta be honest , I’m not sure there is anything anyone can say that would make me feel differently about this particular situation. I guess I think that though the DP is greatly overused - there are some pretty rock solid cases of conviction by some people preoccupied with evil who take pleasure at coldly murdering others in the worst fashion - not your liquor store robbery/holdup that went wrong and someone’s dead - but like the case above or like Richard Ramirez the nightstalker in the eighties who snuck into peoples houses at night raping and murdering women and couples sleeping together in bed because people’s pain brought him pleasure.

 

[porthos11]

You may support the death penalty in good conscience and without sin.

Cardinal Ratzinger:

“if a Catholic were to be at odds with the Holy Father on the application of capital punishment or on the decision to wage war, he would not for that reason be considered unworthy to present himself to receive Holy Communion. While the Church exhorts civil authorities to seek peace, not war, and to exercise discretion and mercy in imposing punishment on criminals, it may still be permissible to take up arms to repel an aggressor or to have recourse to capital punishment. There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia.”%between%

 

[triumphguy]

I’ll see your Cardinal, and raise you two Popes:

cacp.org/vaticandocuments.html

The definitive Latin edition of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, issued in September 1997, states that although the death penalty would be theoretically permissible in instances when it is “the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor,” such instances are “practically non-existent” in today’s world, given the resources available to governments for restraining criminals. The Catechism language (click on the “Catechism” box at left) reflects the views of the late Pope John Paul II, expressed in his 1995 encyclical “The Gospel of Life.”

Since then, both Pope John Paul II and his successor, Pope Benedict XVI, have spoken out against the death penalty

Basically the Church teaches that the death penalty is available only when the lives of others are in jeopardy. It is not available as punishment, and it is not available as deterrence. Thus, in the western world it would not be a moral option.

 

[porthos11]

I’ll see your Cardinal, and raise you two Popes:

cacp.org/vaticandocuments.html

Basically the Church teaches that the death penalty is available only when the lives of others are in jeopardy. It is not available as punishment, and it is not available as deterrence. Thus, in the western world it would not be a moral option.

The Church permits Catholics to disagree with Pope John Paull II on this matter and in good conscience.

Pope John Paul II made a prudential judgment on the application of the death penalty, not a declaration on its morality.

 

[triumphguy]

Why do I get the feeling that you are for the death penalty?

 

[someperson555]

AHHHHH, this is truly ironic. i remember when i posted a thread in support of polygamy, you all jumped at my throat saying “the church forbids it and thats that”, well dear friends, now its my turn to say that the church’s stance on the death penalty is exactly what triumphguy posted. it is only permissible if other’s lives are in jeopardy, but it is not allowed to be used as an act of vengeance or punishment. remember what Jesus said “he who is without sin cast the first stone”.

 

[porthos11]

AHHHHH, this is truly ironic. i remember when i posted a thread in support of polygamy, you all jumped at my throat saying “the church forbids it and thats that”, well dear friends, now its my turn to say that the church’s stance on the death penalty is exactly what triumphguy posted. it is only permissible if other’s lives are in jeoprady, but it is not allowed to be used as an act of vengeance or punishment. remember what Jesus said “he who is without sin cast the first stone”.

The Church forbids polygamy as a moral evil. Unacceptable under any circumstances.
The Church permits the use of capital punishment and permits Catholics to disagree with Pope John Paul II’s opinion.

Pope John Paul’s opinion as well as Pope Benedict’s are clear examples of Catholics freely disagreeing with others on the prudent application of the death penalty.

As for it not being allowed as punishment, this is incorrect. The Church explicitly states that the State may licitly inflict the death penalty as punishment, not just defense or public safety.

 

[triumphguy]

Sources please.

BTW how often do you disagree with the Pope and the CCC?

 

[MidnightSun12]

Why do I get the feeling that you are for the death penalty?

I think porthos11’s just highlighting the fact that the issue of the death penalty should be given less weight in the decision-making process of which political party to vote for then abortion or euthanasia should get. The reason being is that abolishing the death penalty tends to be supported by the same political parties who support abortion, gay marriage and euthanasia so it’s important to highlight the fact that the death penalty is of lesser importance then these other issues.

I personally do not support the death penalty but if my country had a pro-life political party that happened to be soft on the death penalty issue, my voting for them would be a no-brainer barring any other seriously morally objectionable policies.

 

[triumphguy]

I’d do the same, however, that’s not quite the same thing as personally following Church teaching.

 

[porthos11]

Sources please.

BTW how often do you disagree with the Pope and the CCC?

On the right of Catholics to disagree on the death penalty, Pope Benedict quote above.

Roman Catechism (of Trent):

“Another kind of lawful slaying belongs to the civil authorities, to whom is entrusted power of life and death, by the legal and judicious exercise of which they punish the guilty and protect the innocent. The just use of this power, far from involving the crime of murder, is an act of paramount obedience to this Commandment which prohibits murder. The end of the Commandment is the preservation and security of human life. Now the punishments inflicted by the civil authority, which are the legitimate avengers of crime, naturally tend to this end, since they give security to life by repressing outrage and violence. Hence these words of David: In the morning I put to death all the wicked of the land, that I might cut off all the workers of iniquity from the city of the Lord.”

Pope Pius XII (1952):

“When it is a question of the execution of a condemned man, the State does not dispose of the individual’s right to life. In this case it is reserved to the public power to deprive the condemned person of the enjoyment of life in expiation of his crime when, by his crime, he has already disposed himself of his right to live.”
%between%

I can disagree with the CCC where the Church permits, i.e. prudential judgments.
I give full assent to the Church’s teachings of faith and morals with no exception.
I uphold the Church’s moral teaching permitting the death penalty without necessarily pushing for it (you will never hear me demanding, for example, that Canada reinstate it).

What I do take exception to, is the tendency of a lot of CAF posters to paint as monsters those who do express support of the morality of the death penalty.

One does not take the CCC in isolation, but always in the light of the entirety of the Church’s moral teaching.

 

[porthos11]

I think porthos11’s just highlighting the fact that the issue of the death penalty should be given less weight in the decision-making process of which political party to vote for then abortion or euthanasia should get. The reason being is that abolishing the death penalty tends to be supported by the same political parties who support abortion, gay marriage and euthanasia so it’s important to highlight the fact that the death penalty is of lesser importance then these other issues.

I personally do not support the death penalty but if my country had a pro-life political party that happened to be soft on the death penalty issue, my voting for them would be a no-brainer barring any other seriously morally objectionable policies.

My point is that the Church permits her faithful to support the death penalty.

My other point is that a lot of CAF posters would paint such faithful as monsters, even implicitly.

 

[someperson555]

The Church forbids polygamy as a moral evil. Unacceptable under any circumstances.
The Church permits the use of capital punishment and permits Catholics to disagree with Pope John Paul II’s opinion.

Pope John Paul’s opinion as well as Pope Benedict’s are clear examples of Catholics freely disagreeing with others on the prudent application of the death penalty.

As for it not being allowed as punishment, this is incorrect. The Church explicitly states that the State may licitly inflict the death penalty as punishment, not just defense or public safety.

you cant disagree with the pope, because the pope is “infallible”, thats a fact. also the scriptures condemn the death penalty quite clearly, in the old testament, after kain kills abel, God says to kain “who ever takes vengeance upon abel, will be punished sevenscore”. thats not a direct quote, but that was the gist of it. so sorry, both the church and scriptures forbid it. God is the only one who can punish anyone for a crime or a misdeed.

 

[someperson555]

On the right of Catholics to disagree on the death penalty, Pope Benedict quote above.

Roman Catechism (of Trent):

“Another kind of lawful slaying belongs to the civil authorities, to whom is entrusted power of life and death, by the legal and judicious exercise of which they punish the guilty and protect the innocent. The just use of this power, far from involving the crime of murder, is an act of paramount obedience to this Commandment which prohibits murder. The end of the Commandment is the preservation and security of human life. Now the punishments inflicted by the civil authority, which are the legitimate avengers of crime, naturally tend to this end, since they give security to life by repressing outrage and violence. Hence these words of David: In the morning I put to death all the wicked of the land, that I might cut off all the workers of iniquity from the city of the Lord.”

Pope Pius XII (1952):

“When it is a question of the execution of a condemned man, the State does not dispose of the individual’s right to life. In this case it is reserved to the public power to deprive the condemned person of the enjoyment of life in expiation of his crime when, by his crime, he has already disposed himself of his right to live.”
%between%

I can disagree with the CCC where the Church permits, i.e. prudential judgments.
I give full assent to the Church’s teachings of faith and morals with no exception.
I uphold the Church’s moral teaching permitting the death penalty without necessarily pushing for it (you will never hear me demanding, for example, that Canada reinstate it).

What I do take exception to, is the tendency of a lot of CAF posters to paint as monsters those who do express support of the morality of the death penalty.

One does not take the CCC in isolation, but always in the light of the entirety of the Church’s moral teaching.

that quote proves my point, it says “in defence of the citizens”. thats the justification it uses for the death penalty. but simply putting someone to death because it “serves 'em right” goes againt morality.

 

[porthos11]

you cant disagree with the pope, because the pope is “infallible”, thats a fact. also the scriptures condemn the death penalty quite clearly, in the old testament, after kain kills abel, God says to kain “who ever takes vengeance upon abel, will be punished sevenscore”. thats not a direct quote, but that was the gist of it. so sorry, both the church and scriptures forbid it. God is the only one who can punish anyone for a crime or a misdeed.

Yes, you may disagree with the Pope where allowed. Fact remains that the Pope did not use his infallibility to declare the death penalty immoral (he could not, infallibility would have prevented him from reversing the Church’s moral teaching).

As for not disagreeing with the Pope, I have a Pope that supports the death penalty, and I quoted him above. It’s infallible either, but neither John Paul II nor Benedict XVI have ever declared the death penalty immoral. They just differ on how it is to be applied.

Until 1870, the Papal States, over whom the Pope was ruler, executed criminals. It in fact, had a professional headsman in its employ (the method was beheading with the axe). Vatican City, the temporal holding of the Holy See, had the death penalty on its laws until 1969. That’s a strong argument against the Church being “against” the death penalty in principle.

As for the Scriptures, God imposes the death penalty for gathering firewood on the Sabbath.

So no, neither Church no Scriptures prohibit the death penalty.

 

[MidnightSun12]

you cant disagree with the pope, because the pope is “infallible”, thats a fact. also the scriptures condemn the death penalty quite clearly, in the old testament, after kain kills abel, God says to kain “who ever takes vengeance upon abel, will be punished sevenscore”. thats not a direct quote, but that was the gist of it. so sorry, both the church and scriptures forbid it. God is the only one who can punish anyone for a crime or a misdeed.

I doubt this was a statement of infallibility. As far as I know the only statements of infallibility that have come from the pope have been the dogma of the immaculate conception, the Assumption, and the cannonization of the saints(?)

Vengeance and justice are different things… Don’t forget “An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.” What I think JPII is saying might be that “life in prison” can be another way to stay true to justice while still being unconditionally pro-life from natural birth to natural death. That said, the church realizes that sometimes this isn’t possible (espcially during war) and it leaves it up to the state to decide when execution is appropriate and when it is not (this is why abolishing the death penalty not a required belief for catholics to hold).

 

[triumphguy]

The American Bishops talk about four values that are supported by their stance for the abolition of the death penalty:

americancatholic.org/Newsletters/CU/ac0195.asp

First, “abolition sends a message that we can break the cycle of violence, that we need not take life for life, that we can envisage more humane and more hopeful and effective responses to the growth of violent crime.” The bishops recognize that crime is rooted in the complex reality of contemporary society, including those “social conditions of poverty and injustice which often provide the breeding grounds for serious crime.” More attention should go to correcting the root causes of crime than to enlarging death row.

Second, “abolition of capital punishment is also a manifestation of our belief in the unique worth and dignity of each person from the moment of conception, a creature made in the image and likeness of God.” This belief, rooted in Scripture and consistently expressed in the social teach- ings of the Church, applies to all people, including those who have taken life.

Third, “abolition of the death penalty is further testimony to our conviction, a conviction which we share with the Judaic and Islamic traditions, that God is indeed the Lord of life.” And so human life in all its stages is sacred, and human beings are called to care for life, that is, to exercise good stewardship and not absolute control. The bishops recognize that abortion, euthanasia and the death penalty are not the same issue, but they each point to the same fundamental value: safeguarding the sanctity of life.

Fourth, “we believe that abolition of the death penalty is most consonant with the example of Jesus.” In many ways this final point summarizes the other three: the God revealed in the life of Jesus is a God of forgiveness and redemption, of love and compassion—in a word, a God of life. The heart of the bishops’ position on the death penalty, then, is found in the gospel.

@porthos

I won’t paint you as a monster, however it seems that your personal stance in this case allows you to pick and choose which Church teaching to follow. I think we all need to be honest about this.

Church teaching is meant to challenge us, and usually the place where it challenges us i the place we ought to have a close look at our personal choices and beliefs.

 

[porthos11]

that quote proves my point, it says “in defence of the citizens”. thats the justification it uses for the death penalty. but simply putting someone to death because it “serves 'em right” goes againt morality.

Pope Pius XII disagrees. He mentions punishment as the sole reason, not defence or deterrence.

 

[porthos11]

The American Bishops talk about four values that are supported by their stance for the abolition of the death penalty:

americancatholic.org/Newsletters/CU/ac0195.asp

@porthos

I won’t paint you as a monster, however it seems that your personal stance in this case allows you to pick and choose which Church teaching to follow. I think we all need to be honest about this.

Church teaching is meant to challenge us, and usually the place where it challenges us i the place we ought to have a close look at our personal choices and beliefs.

One can distinguish between teaching and prudential judgment. I haven’t yet seen you respond to Pope Pius XII and the Roman Catechism, as well as the opinion of Cardinal Dulles.

I do not pick and choose Church teaching where commanded, and I resent the implication. I am no heretic or cafeteria Catholic. My stance is not even for the death penalty. My stance is for people to be allowed to be for it or against it.

 

[triumphguy]

I appreciate the stance you are making Porthos: you want people to be able to choose, and not be bulldozed into a belief.

However, Pius XII has been succeeded by other Popes. The current Pope is against the death penalty.

Which Church teaching should we follow? Should we search through history to find that which most closely matches our own opinions and beliefs, or should we follow current teaching which speaks to the world and the context we live in.

I’m not sure that one “can” support the death penalty, based on the reading I’ve done, and the opinions put forward by other posters. I think we may at most “tolerate” the death penalty in extreme cases.