Is it ludicrous to think that the world will remain Capitalistic?

[JimG]

As Ridgerunner said earlier, the question is not whether there is capital, or whether it can be used, but who gets to use it. “The core question is whether individuals who earn it get to use it or whether they get it taken away from them by government.”

Capital is neutral. Labor is neutral. Either can be used for good or bad. Is it better for them to be coerced, or to be free?

 

[Robert_Sock]

And Socialism breeds all that on steroids, because it sucks out any potential for freedom and creativity, which are both based off of love.

The ‘freedom’ you see here in the West is nothing more than the greed, power and prestige found in capitalism.

My main contention with this post was to paint a gloomy picture for capitalism; my treating socialism in a positive light was just a distant, secondary contention.

 

[Robert_Sock]

As Ridgerunner said earlier, the question is not whether there is capital, or whether it can be used, but who gets to use it. “The core question is whether individuals who earn it get to use it or whether they get it taken away from them by government.”

Capital is neutral. Labor is neutral. Either can be used for good or bad. Is it better for them to be coerced, or to be free?

I believe there are precautions to guard against the potential abuses in socialism: The old phrase, “Do Not Throw the Baby Out with the Bath Water,” comes to mind here.

 

[nmgauss]

Capitalism breeds GREED, POWER and PRESTIGE!

Isn’t that what is needed to be a leader? Didn’t Jesus have prestige? Didn’t Jesus have power? Here is the definition of greed:
intense and selfish desire for something, esp. wealth, power, or food

So the greed for something does not necessarily money.

 

[ishii]

Pope Francis may not be a Marxist, but the world will eventually be Socialistic. Capitalism is doomed as a fair and just economic system, and must be abandoned. Socialism is more ready to lend itself to true Humanitarian causes, which the vast number of people will support. Capitalism is inherently anti-humanitarian, and must not be allowed due to the human atrocities that it produces.

The problems Robert, are that while capitalism might sometimes (but not always) encourage certain negative aspect of human nature, socialism denies human nature. Moreover, socialism doesn’t work. It has been shown to be a failure where it has been tried.

Ishii

 

[Robert_Sock]

Isn’t that what is needed to be a leader? Didn’t Jesus have prestige? Didn’t Jesus have power? Here is the definition of greed:
intense and selfish desire for something, esp. wealth, power, or food

So the greed for something does not necessarily money.

Satan tempted Christ in respect to ‘power’ and ‘prestige,’ but Christ did not give in (see Matthew 4: 1-10).

 

[ishii]

Some more than others. What are the neg and pos attributes of socialism and capitalism?

Robert:

Socialism ends up with people all miserable together. Capitalism can end up with people living in misery, but also can have people flourishing as well. Much of the success or failure of capitalism, in terms of pos attributes are a function of the society in which it is practiced. Is it practiced in a country that respects the rule of law? Has a good infrastructure? Is it practiced in a society where people are generally somewhat virtuous? I guess one could say that socialism is negative inherently - by definition, whereas capitalisms negatives are more based on who is practicing it. Think about this too: you are on an internet site discussing this issue - proposing your ideas in a forum, however controversial. Would you be able to do that in China? In North Korea? In any other socialist state in history? The answer is no. That should tell you something about the nature of socialism - it is accompanied by despotic rule and severe limitation of freedom of speech, press, etc. - the basic rights that we take for granted in this country. Be careful what you wish for.

One more point - what socialism country would invent things like computers and the internet in which to discuss things like we’re doing? What notable invention has come from any socialist country in modern history?

Ishii

 

[nmgauss]

Satan tempted Christ in respect to ‘power’ and ‘prestige,’ but Christ did not give in (see Matthew 4: 1-10).

Satan offered all the kingdoms and their splendor if he could get Jesus to worship him.

“Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. 9 “All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.””

What does this passage have to do with power and prestige?

 

[nmgauss]

The problems Robert, are that while capitalism might sometimes (but not always) encourage certain negative aspect of human nature, socialism denies human nature. Moreover, socialism doesn’t work. It has been shown to be a failure where it has been tried.
Ishii

Look at what has happened in China since the downfall of communism/socialism as instituted by Mao Tse-tung and his successors. China has so much money that it can invest in the United States. Is this better than the widespread poverty during Mao?

 

[Robert_Sock]

Satan offered all the kingdoms and their splendor if he could get Jesus to worship him.

“Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. 9 “All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.””

What does this passage have to do with power and prestige?

The values of ‘power’ and ‘prestige’ are inherent in the passage.

8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and the glory of them; 9 and he said to him, “All these I will give you, if you will fall down and worship me.” 10 Then Jesus said to him, “Begone, Satan! for it is written, ‘You shall worship the Lord your God and him only shall you serve.’”

 

[markomalley]

I never said that the Church doesn’t condemn socialism, but things can, and will, change in order to put Christ (i.e., LOVE) first and foremost into the world’s economic system.

Again, maybe there are alternative systems that are based neither on capitalism or socialism. Capitalism, though, has got to go.

So, in other words, Pope Pius IX, Pope Leo XIII, Pope St Pius X, Pope Benedict XV, Pope Pius XI, Pope Pius XII, Pope John XXIII, Pope Paul VI, Pope John Paul II (note that Pope JPI was not around long enough to make a statement one way or the other), Pope Benedict XVI, and Pope Francis are all wrong. Robert is right. Maybe someday the Church will be smart enough to get on board with what Robert thinks.

OK, fine…

 

[Robert_Sock]

So, in other words, Pope Pius IX, Pope Leo XIII, Pope St Pius X, Pope Benedict XV, Pope Pius XI, Pope Pius XII, Pope John XXIII, Pope Paul VI, Pope John Paul II (note that Pope JPI was not around long enough to make a statement one way or the other), Pope Benedict XVI, and Pope Francis are all wrong. Robert is right. Maybe someday the Church will be smart enough to get on board with what Robert thinks.

OK, fine…

Why did you choose not to focus on what I said in my second paragraph.

 

[JimG]

I never said that the Church doesn’t condemn socialism, but things can, and will, change in order to put Christ (i.e., LOVE) first and foremost into the world’s economic system.

Again, maybe there are alternative systems that are based neither on capitalism or socialism. Capitalism, though, has got to go.

What does this mean? Do this mean that capital must be eliminated? Or private ownership of capital must be eliminated What? Or must free trade be eliminated? I have no idea of what kind of economic system you can build without using capital.

If there is no capital, there will be poverty. If people cannot own capital, there will be a subsistence or poverty economy. Just what aspect of capitalism do you wish to eliminate? Shall we have automobile factories but not allow it to be mechanized? If a person has a toolbox containing privately owned tools–well, that’s capitalism! Does he have to give the tools away?

 

[ishii]

  I never said that the Church doesn't condemn socialism, but things can, and will, change in order to put Christ (i.e., LOVE) first and foremost into the world's economic system.

Can you explain what you mean by this?

Again, maybe there are alternative systems that are based neither on capitalism or socialism. Capitalism, though, has got to go.

Where has socialism worked?

Ishii

 

[nmgauss]

The values of ‘power’ and ‘prestige’ are inherent in the passage.

8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and the glory of them; 9 and he said to him, “All these I will give you, if you will fall down and worship me.” 10 Then Jesus said to him, “Begone, Satan! for it is written, ‘You shall worship the Lord your God and him only shall you serve.’”

You are practicing eisegesis instead of exegesis.

 

[markomalley]

Why did you choose not to focus on what I said in my second paragraph.

I never said that the Church doesn’t condemn socialism, but things can, and will, change in order to put Christ (i.e., LOVE) first and foremost into the world’s economic system.

Again, maybe there are alternative systems that are based neither on capitalism or socialism. Capitalism, though, has got to go.

Robert, I didn’t concentrate on your second paragraph because I’ve already addressed it earlier in the thread (as well as many other threads).

The fact of the matter is that capitalism has never been condemned **outright **by the Church. Never.

Socialism has.

Having said that, distributism, in theory, has a lot going for it…and I would highly favor individuals voluntarily forming distributist cooperatives, but I, frankly, do not see much of a way that it could be implemented on a national scale without violating a HUGE quantity of other Catholic teachings.

It also doesn’t address how certain forms of economic activity that require massive scale to operate would work. For example, much of the infrastructure that exists depends upon large scale (such as electrical distribution, water purification, transportation networks, and so on). Those items depend upon a collection of capital that would tend to violate what I understand as a distributist model.

But I would be happy to discuss that with somebody to see how those things are dealt with.

But distributism is capitalism putting the principle of subsidiarity on steroids. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with socialism.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Pope Francis recently stated that Marxist can be good people.

 

[markomalley]

Pope Francis recently stated that Marxist can be good people.

That’s a far cry from saying that Marxism can be good.

On edit: this was from a La Stampa interview:

“Marxist ideology is wrong. But I have met many Marxists in my life who are good people, so I don’t feel offended.”

He also said:

“There is nothing in the Exhortation that cannot be found in the social Doctrine of the Church. I wasn’t speaking from a technical point of view, what I was trying to do was to give a picture of what is going on. The only specific quote I used was the one regarding the “trickle-down theories” which assume that economic growth, encouraged by a free market, will inevitably succeed in bringing about greater justice and social inclusiveness in the world. The promise was that when the glass was full, it would overflow, benefitting the poor. But what happens instead, is that when the glass is full, it magically gets bigger nothing ever comes out for the poor. This was the only reference to a specific theory. I was not, I repeat, speaking from a technical point of view but according to the Church’s social doctrine. This does not mean being a Marxist.”

 

[SuperLuigi]

Yes, of course Africa has plenty of resources, but these resources are being controlled by Western capitalism.

I’d say they are being controlled much more by the ignorance of Western governments which continue to wittingly or unwittingly fund dictators because it makes their liberal base feel warm and fuzzy inside.

Things in Africa have become considerably worse in many cases thanks to Western “aid”.

 

[SuperLuigi]

Pope Francis recently stated that Marxist can be good people.

That’s too narrow and simplistic for this thread. I would guess the Pope means the people who really believe it’s the right thing to do (in spite of its horrible results).

I think a lot of people become Marxists or socialists thinking they will get more somehow, even if it’s at the expense of others.

I’d say that’s pretty selfish and anti-Catholic.