Is it ludicrous to think that the world will remain Capitalistic?

[ishii]

Why is that?? North Korea is a dictatorship, we are talking about socialism and capitalism here.

MANY mistake Dictatorship states for Communism and Socialism, quite frankly we havent had any country that was a true communist state, we’ve had a few that were close to social democracy, but not even socialism. Even Greece is mostly capitalist, China who call themselves communist are nothing but a dictatorship with capitalist principles.

Why? Because historically every country that has claimed to be operating under communist principles, be it Marxism-Leninism or Maoism, or some other amalgamation of Marxism or collectivism, has been characterized by suppression of free-speech, prison camps, totalitarianism, secret police, 3am knocks on the door, political prisoners in prison camps, and despair, etc. Which is what North Korea is now. China was like that, however they are now quite capitalist, even if they do not yet allow political freedom commensurate with their economic freedom.

Ishii

 

[holyreyes]

We’re entering a new age where economies need to be rebuilt to minimize greed, power and prestige. What I gave to you is a viable alternative, and you make like an expert on all your thought-up criticisms.

Hi Robert!

Our current world economic system must be dismantled and deconstructed if we are to survive as one human race… IT HAS TO sooner or soonest…

 

[tcjjmcf]

I dislike the term “Capitalism”!

It is a word coined by Karl Marx to define the Free Market.

I don’t like to have “opponents” defining terms.

When I say “Free Market”, I mean a full, pure, uncontrolled, unregulated laissez-faire Free Market, with a separation of state and economics, in the same way and for the same reasons as the separation of Church and state.

In a Free Market economy, where no one or group can use physical coercion against anyone, economic power can be achieved only by the voluntary choice and agreement of all those who participate in the process of production and trade. In a Free Market, all prices, wages, and profits are determined…not by the whim of the rich or of the poor, not by anyone’s “greed” or need…but by the law of supply and demand.

A Free Market reflects all the economic choices and decisions made by all the participants. People trade their goods or services by mutual consent to mutual advantage, according to their own independent, un-coerced judgment. A man can grow rich only if he is able to offer better values—better products or services, at a lower price—than others.

The Free Market has been called a system of greed…yet it is the system that raised the standard of living of its poorest citizens to heights no socialist system has ever begun to equal.

Socialism is the doctrine that people have no right to exist for their own sake, that their lives and work do not belong to them, but belong to society, that the only justification of existence is service to society, and that society may dispose of them in any way it pleases for the sake of whatever it deems to be its own collective good.

There is no difference between the principles and policies of socialism and those of any historical tyranny. Socialism is merely a system of absolutism without a leader. It is open to seizure of power by all corners, by any ruthless climber, opportunist, adventurer, demagogue or thug.

To this date, socialism has brought economic paralysis and/or collapse to every country that tried it.

I think it is ludicrous to think that the world would consider any economic system other than Free Market “Capitalism”

Well said! A free market, which means free speech, free and unrestricted access to information, the free exchange of goods to the mutually agreed upon benefit of both buyer and seller is perfectly consistent with the teachings of the Church. Those countries that practice it best, e.g., Singapore, Hong Kong, etc. enjoy it’s many rewards, high employment, high standard of living, ability to elevate oneself in the economic system, steady growth of the nation’s economy, etc. No socialistic or communistic system has EVER been able to make those claims (nor has any dictatorship).

The most charitable thing one can do for the poor is to offer them employment, and the best way to prevent starvation is to generate personal excess in material well-being thus predisposing INDIVIDUALS to share their “wealth”. (Of course, that requires personal virtue which is separate from any economic system.). All this is best accomplished when living under a free market system and is least likely when living under any form of a statist system.

Also, the free market system is not to be confused with “crony capitalism”, which, unfortunately, is all too prevalent in today’s world economies. This is a condition where a company or an entire industry curry favor with the government to pass legislation that provides the business with an unfair advantage over its competitors. This corrupts the business as well as the government officials and does grave injustice to the consumer.

Pure statist systems are a violation of the first commandment, “Thou shalt not have any gods before Me” where the state, not God, becomes the ultimate authority. Statist systems deprive individuals of their personal freedom and limit if not prohibit private property which is man’s means of survival. It is the state’s will that is to be obeyed, not God’s will. They consistently infringe on man’s God given free will. Involuntary re-distribution of goods may be the desired goal but the means proposed by statist systems is tantamount to saying the means justifies the end. In theory and in practice, statist systems have been a plague on society. How, in good conscience, can a Catholic embrace any statist system?

 

[Robert_Sock]

Well said! A free market, which means free speech, free and unrestricted access to information, the free exchange of goods to the mutually agreed upon benefit of both buyer and seller is perfectly consistent with the teachings of the Church. Those countries that practice it best, e.g., Singapore, Hong Kong, etc. enjoy it’s many rewards, high employment, high standard of living, ability to elevate oneself in the economic system, steady growth of the nation’s economy, etc. No socialistic or communistic system has EVER been able to make those claims (nor has any dictatorship).

The most charitable thing one can do for the poor is to offer them employment, and the best way to prevent starvation is to generate personal excess in material well-being thus predisposing INDIVIDUALS to share their “wealth”. (Of course, that requires personal virtue which is separate from any economic system.). All this is best accomplished when living under a free market system and is least likely when living under any form of a statist system.

Also, the free market system is not to be confused with “crony capitalism”, which, unfortunately, is all too prevalent in today’s world economies. This is a condition where a company or an entire industry curry favor with the government to pass legislation that provides the business with an unfair advantage over its competitors. This corrupts the business as well as the government officials and does grave injustice to the consumer.

Pure statist systems are a violation of the first commandment, “Thou shalt not have any gods before Me” where the state, not God, becomes the ultimate authority. Statist systems deprive individuals of their personal freedom and limit if not prohibit private property which is man’s means of survival. It is the state’s will that is to be obeyed, not God’s will. They consistently infringe on man’s God given free will. Involuntary re-distribution of goods may be the desired goal but the means proposed by statist systems is tantamount to saying the means justifies the end. In theory and in practice, statist systems have been a plague on society. How, in good conscience, can a Catholic embrace any statist system?

A typical free market rant that carefully avoids the negative attributes of GREED, POWER and PRESTIGE that are inherent to such a system.

 

[dshix]

A typical free market rant that carefully avoids the negative attributes of GREED, POWER and PRESTIGE that are inherent to such a system.

:nope:

The attributes of greed, power, and prestige (the latter two of which are not intrinsically immoral, by the way) are attributes of an individual, not an economic system.

Furthermore, I could contend that the leaders of socialist or communist regimes are far, far more greedy and powerful and limiting of others’ freedom than the entrepreneurs in a capitalist society.

 

[sallybutler]

:nope:

The attributes of greed, power, and prestige (the latter two of which are not intrinsically immoral, by the way) are attributes of an individual, not an economic system.

Furthermore, I could contend that the leaders of socialist or communist regimes are far, far more greedy and powerful and limiting of others’ freedom than the entrepreneurs in a capitalist society.

However, since the “Free Market” is made up of individuals, you run into problems that are caused by greed, power, and prestige.

 

[holyreyes]

Well said! A free market, which means free speech, free and unrestricted access to information, the free exchange of goods to the mutually agreed upon benefit of both buyer and seller is perfectly consistent with the teachings of the Church. Those countries that practice it best, e.g., Singapore, Hong Kong, etc. enjoy it’s many rewards, high employment, high standard of living, ability to elevate oneself in the economic system, steady growth of the nation’s economy, etc. No socialistic or communistic system has EVER been able to make those claims (nor has any dictatorship).

The most charitable thing one can do for the poor is to offer them employment, and the best way to prevent starvation is to generate personal excess in material well-being thus predisposing INDIVIDUALS to share their “wealth”. (Of course, that requires personal virtue which is separate from any economic system.). All this is best accomplished when living under a free market system and is least likely when living under any form of a statist system.

Also, the free market system is not to be confused with “crony capitalism”, which, unfortunately, is all too prevalent in today’s world economies. This is a condition where a company or an entire industry curry favor with the government to pass legislation that provides the business with an unfair advantage over its competitors. This corrupts the business as well as the government officials and does grave injustice to the consumer.

Pure statist systems are a violation of the first commandment, “Thou shalt not have any gods before Me” where the state, not God, becomes the ultimate authority. Statist systems deprive individuals of their personal freedom and limit if not prohibit private property which is man’s means of survival. It is the state’s will that is to be obeyed, not God’s will. They consistently infringe on man’s God given free will. Involuntary re-distribution of goods may be the desired goal but the means proposed by statist systems is tantamount to saying the means justifies the end. In theory and in practice, statist systems have been a plague on society. How, in good conscience, can a Catholic embrace any statist system?

Singaporeans are ranked to be the most unhappy people on the planet and the same thing can be said to Chinese Hong Kong. Under the guise of their economic prowess, the ill effects on humanity and spirituality surfaces and these are all because of the demands of Capitalism.

youtube.com/watch?v=EZnvYzZvUmk

youtube.com/watch?v=gqkNtZN9CFQ

youtube.com/watch?v=6nIPRjwzYBo

 

[dshix]

However, since the “Free Market” is made up of individuals, you run into problems that are caused by greed, power, and prestige.

Yes, and since Communist states are run by individuals, you run into problems that are caused by greed, power, and prestige.

And since Socialist states are run by individuals, you run into problems that are caused by greed, power, and prestige.

And since Fascist states are run by individuals, you run into problems that are caused by greed, power, and prestige.

And since Monarchy states are run by an individual, you run into problems that are caused by greed, power, and prestige.

And since all other governments that ever existed in the history of the world are run by individuals, you run into problems that are caused by greed, power, and prestige.

__

Your point?

 

[Robert_Sock]

Yes, and since Communist states are run by individuals, you run into problems that are caused by greed, power, and prestige.

And since Socialist states are run by individuals, you run into problems that are caused by greed, power, and prestige.

And since Fascist states are run by individuals, you run into problems that are caused by greed, power, and prestige.

And since Monarchy states are run by an individual, you run into problems that are caused by greed, power, and prestige.

And since all other governments that ever existed in the history of the world are run by individuals, you run into problems that are caused by greed, power, and prestige.

__

Your point?

Capitalism PROMOTES greed, power and prestige. Not all economic systems promote these negative attributes in the same degree.

 

[dshix]

Capitalism PROMOTES greed, power and prestige. Not all economic systems promote these negative attributes in the same degree.

Prove it.

(Oh, and you also have to prove that power and prestige are intrinsically evil.)

 

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

A typical free market rant that carefully avoids the negative attributes of GREED, POWER and PRESTIGE that are inherent to such a system.

Greed. power and prestige…maligned terms used by communists to bash Capitalism.

GREED
In a true Free Market, Greed does not exist. People operate on the principle of SELF INTEREST. Self Interest is not greed. A man seeking to improve his lot in life so that his family benefits is acting in his own self-interest. If he, in his own self-interest, improves himself and his family, then the general good is accomplished. Communists. socialists and liberal thinkers of today call that GREED every chance they get…but it is not.

Adam Smith said it very well: “It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker, that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own self-interest.” In other words, the butcher is not working in his shop so that you can eat; he’s doing it so that he can. But by virtue of him being there, doing what he does, you are able to also eat.

POWER
The power that exists in a Free Market is ECONOMIC Power and that is not a negative… Socialism, communism and tyranny depend on POLITICAL power. There is a big difference.
Economic power is exercised by means of a positive, by offering everyone a reward, an incentive, a payment, a value. Political power is exercised by means of a negative, by the threat of punishment, injury, imprisonment, destruction. The Free Market’s power is** values**; socialism’s power is fear.

PRESTIGE
Prestige is not a negative in the Free Market. It is a goal. It is earned by respecting the rights and property of others and maintaining the ruling economic principle of justice.
Prestige in a socialist/communist society is UN-earned. It is usurped by force or political power. It is simply “claimed”.

Self Interest, (What you mistakenly call greed) Power and Prestige are not negatives of the Free Market (Capitalism). They are actually positives that make the Free Market the overall best economic system in the world.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Prove it.

(Oh, and you also have to prove that power and prestige are intrinsically evil.)

Prove it! Just look at the severe income disparity. Power and prestige may not be intrinsically evil in some measure, but excessive power and prestige are negative, unwanted attributes.

 

[dshix]

Greed. power and prestige…maligned terms used by communists to bash Capitalism.

GREED
In a true Free Market, Greed does not exist. People operate on the principle of SELF INTEREST. Self Interest is not greed. A man seeking to improve his lot in life so that his family benefits is acting in his own self-interest. If he, in his own self-interest, improves himself and his family, then the general good is accomplished. Communists. socialists and liberal thinkers of today call that GREED every chance they get…but it is not.

Adam Smith said it very well: “It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker, that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own self-interest.” In other words, the butcher is not working in his shop so that you can eat; he’s doing it so that he can. But by virtue of him being there, doing what he does, you are able to also eat.

POWER
The power that exists in a Free Market is ECONOMIC Power and that is not a negative… Socialism, communism and tyranny depend on POLITICAL power. There is a big difference.
Economic power is exercised by means of a positive, by offering everyone a reward, an incentive, a payment, a value. Political power is exercised by means of a negative, by the threat of punishment, injury, imprisonment, destruction. The Free Market’s power is** values**; socialism’s power is fear.

PRESTIGE
Prestige is not a negative in the Free Market. It is a goal. It is earned by respecting the rights and property of others and maintaining the ruling economic principle of justice.
Prestige in a socialist/communist society is UN-earned. It is usurped by force or political power. It is simply “claimed”.

Self Interest, (What you mistakenly call greed) Power and Prestige are not negatives of the Free Market (Capitalism). They are actually positives that make the Free Market the overall best economic system in the world.

Well put.

 

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

Prove it! Just look at the severe income disparity. Power and prestige may not be intrinsically evil in some measure, but excessive power and prestige are negative, unwanted attributes.

What is wrong with “income disparity”?

 

[JimG]

In a free market, there will always be income disparity. The fact of income disparity means that the free market is working, that people have opportunity and are using it.

In an economic system with forcible equality, such as North Korea, everyone is equally poor–except for the leaders.

Income disparity does not cause poverty. The question is whether one hates the rich more than one hates poverty. Because a free market will help more to get out of poverty than other systems. If one hates the rich enough to force income leveling, we are all equally poor, and economic depressions become even worse.

 

[dshix]

Prove it! Just look at the severe income disparity. Power and prestige may not be intrinsically evil in some measure, but excessive power and prestige are negative, unwanted attributes.

See? You have no evidence. You just want us all to accept your opinion without question simply because it is “obvious”.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Greed. power and prestige…maligned terms used by communists to bash Capitalism.

GREED
In a true Free Market, Greed does not exist. People operate on the principle of SELF INTEREST. Self Interest is not greed. A man seeking to improve his lot in life so that his family benefits is acting in his own self-interest. If he, in his own self-interest, improves himself and his family, then the general good is accomplished. Communists. socialists and liberal thinkers of today call that GREED every chance they get…but it is not.

Adam Smith said it very well: “It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker, that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own self-interest.” In other words, the butcher is not working in his shop so that you can eat; he’s doing it so that he can. But by virtue of him being there, doing what he does, you are able to also eat.

POWER
The power that exists in a Free Market is ECONOMIC Power and that is not a negative… Socialism, communism and tyranny depend on POLITICAL power. There is a big difference.
Economic power is exercised by means of a positive, by offering everyone a reward, an incentive, a payment, a value. Political power is exercised by means of a negative, by the threat of punishment, injury, imprisonment, destruction. The Free Market’s power is** values**; socialism’s power is fear.

PRESTIGE
Prestige is not a negative in the Free Market. It is a goal. It is earned by respecting the rights and property of others and maintaining the ruling economic principle of justice.
Prestige in a socialist/communist society is UN-earned. It is usurped by force or political power. It is simply “claimed”.

Self Interest, (What you mistakenly call greed) Power and Prestige are not negatives of the Free Market (Capitalism). They are actually positives that make the Free Market the overall best economic system in the world.

Along your line of reasoning, rape and murder would also be good things provided it put money on the rich man’s table.

 

[dshix]

Along your line of reasoning, rape and murder would also be good things provided it put money on the rich man’s table.

Nothing of the sort.

Try reading something that disagrees with your worldview without instantly discrediting it because of your bias, Robert.

 

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

Along your line of reasoning, rape and murder would also be good things provided it put money on the rich man’s table.

No Robert. Rape and murder are against the law, as well as Mortal sins. No self respecting Capitalist would ever consider such a thing…although rape, murder and pillage were accepted government practices of major communist/socialist states.

 

[Boatswain2PA]

Prove it! Just look at the severe income disparity. Power and prestige may not be intrinsically evil in some measure, but excessive power and prestige are negative, unwanted attributes.

And if you look at the socialist societies, the income disparity is just as bad. Problem is those in the lower/est socioeconomic strata in these societies are in MUCH worse shape than the lower/est socioeconomic strata in free-market societies.