Is it ludicrous to think that the world will remain Capitalistic?

[epan]

Yes, we agree on Hoover. I disagree on the corruption though…I believe this perception is due to the incredible media bias which has allowed the Democratic party to be able to get away with ANYTHING. This has turned a once proud and honorable party into what it is today.

I disagree with this hurting the middle class. That 90% top tax rate simply pushed the wealthy into various tax shelters. The Laffer curve is real despite socialist propaganda. Furthermore, if you simply look at how the middle class lived in 1981, and how they lived in 1989, you will see a huge improvement in general American lifestyle.

I was speaking of the historic record, not the current situation. Today, the corruption on all sides is appalling, and we are due for some serious reform similar to the changes around 1900 in spirit, at least. And, of course, LBJ’s stands out as an example of a corrupt administration, which was also a driver of social justice. None of this is “black and white”.

I believe that new technologies concentrate wealth in new ways, and that increases in corruption and greed are the result, as a small group cashes in on the opportunity. Consider that the Walton family alone holds as much personal wealth as the bottom 40% of the US population. We have not seen this sort of imbalance for about 90 years. It is apparent that new laws, regulations, tax structures,… perhaps a radically new economic model is required, if we are to avoid social disaster and economic collapse. A society with no middle class cannot support this vast wealth at the top, in a consumer based model. I don’t see feudalism as a viable alternative.

Consider that the cheap factory workers in china and India will also be displaced, at first by cheaper labor in Africa, and eventually by robotic technology. We are approaching an economy which requires very little labor. Unemployment rates will continue to increase worldwide, unless we find an alternative.

This brings us to the question of what to do with an unemployed, and unemployable population, in which more than 90% of a country’s wealth is held by less than 5-10% of the population.

I am no economist, and I wish I could say that I have a solution in mind for this looming problem. My expertise is in a very different area. My sense of history and of current events leads me to think that our society and economy are changing as profoundly with the growth of the current technologies as they did as a result of the industrial revolution.

 

[epan]

… I would like to add that much of my frustration with politics has been the failure of anyone in power or running for major office to even acknowledge the issues that I have summarized, presumably because of our campaign finance and lobbyist system which gives voice primarily to those with a vested interest in maintaining the status quo.

The media is not much help. Imagine a FOX News which concerned itself with truly conservative values, such as the preservation of civil rights, or an NPR which took up serious financial and economic issues?

It is a relief and a pleasure to hear Francis bringing this issues to light. As a non catholic, I can’t really see the validity of the special function which many Catholics might see in him. Certainly, I was no admirer of Benedict. But I do admire Francis, and I hope that he will become an even greater world leader during his reign.

 

[holyreyes]

Socialism is practiced successfully in villages, in some parts of the world. The formal theories grew as a reaction to the abuses of capitalism. As is well known, the 1890’s showed capitalism’s ugliest face, and the reform movements beginning with teddy Roosevelt, and progressing through FDR, and culminating with LBJ were the reaction against the injustice of unbridled capitalism. Once balance was achieved, an unprecedented era of prosperity for the middle class ensued.

Then Reagan embarked on his campaign to enrich a minority at the expense of the middle class, and here we are today as the trend has continued as a reaction to the trends started by teddy Roosevelt.

Don’t forget the role of technology. As the information technologies have displaced the previous moderately paid jobs of the middle class, that diverted income is now flowing to the owners of the new technologies. When factories automate or outsource, the price of goods does not drop. Instead, the former wages of the workers simply go into the pockets of the owners. We are now in another “guided age” similar to the 1890’s. Unfortunately for all of us, including the rich, mr Obama has neither the vision, nor the sense of history, nor the courage, nor the moral bearings of Roosevelt. Whether the current technological revolution results in reasoned and peaceful reform to our economic system, or whether it will defrade into horrific violent oppression and revolution is still unknown.

One thing is certain, a great leader must emerge, if the peaceful and orderly transition is to be realized. Is Francis that leader?

:bowdown: I pray for Pope Francis to lead the Church COURAGEOUSLY!

 

[holyreyes]

… I would like to add that much of my frustration with politics has been the failure of anyone in power or running for major office to even acknowledge the issues that I have summarized, presumably because of our campaign finance and lobbyist system which gives voice primarily to those with a vested interest in maintaining the status quo.

The media is not much help. Imagine a FOX News which concerned itself with truly conservative values, such as the preservation of civil rights, or an NPR which took up serious financial and economic issues?

It is a relief and a pleasure to hear Francis bringing this issues to light. As a non catholic, I can’t really see the validity of the special function which many Catholics might see in him. Certainly, I was no admirer of Benedict. But I do admire Francis, and I hope that he will become an even greater world leader during his reign.

:bowdown:

 

[nmgauss]

:bowdown:

Was humanity ever fair for all people? Before sophisticated human inventions came along, the law of the jungle prevailed. It was a world where whoever was superior in finding food survived. Also whoever was successful in warding off competition or preying on neighbors survived. Consider the Inuit who hunt animals to survive. Anyone not prepared to endure the rigors of this lifestyle or to form clans which depend on this food source, move away or die. Is this fair?

During the days of Jesus in Galilee after iron tools and agriculture became available, day-to-day subsistence was the pattern. Very little extra income was available to the average person to be able to afford to give to the poor. Under-nutrition and disease was rampant. In many respects, most people were poor, just barely able to eke out a living. How could the poor give to the poor? Was this fair? Some people, namely royalty, politicians, soldiers, and merchants did better than the average person. In other words, there was the minority affluent class, and the vast majority of poor people. If you were poor and your entire village was poor, that was equality and fairness. Everybody suffered equally.

Nowadays, we fret about the huge numbers of poor people as if this were a new phenomenon. We blame those who have been able to escape poverty for the existence of poverty. Making wise decisions has enabled those successful people to rise above the average uninformed person, who may waste a lot of his income unknowingly. Whose fault is that? Making affluent people feel guilty will not help. Poverty has been around ever since humans walked the earth and it is not likely to disappear.

 

[holyreyes]

I will repeat it. THERE IS VIRTUALLY NO MALNOURISHMENT IN AMERICA DUE TO POVERTY (unless it is a mental health, medical, or legal issue)

More eek eyes! :bigyikes::bigyikes:

I will challenge you to find ONE example of a person who is malnourished in America. Don’t give me government statistics saying xx% of American children are “at risk of homelessness and malnourishment”. Try to find an actual person in America who IS malnourished.

Your statment could not be any more erroneous to say that there isn’t malnourished person in America. There are malnourished peolple in every country of the world. I guess, someone else other than me defined what the word malnourish means. You should go back and reread. This is redundancy but poor obese people in America are very, very, very malnourished because of the lack of quality of food they eat…

Once you have exhausted your vain search, read that report I linked to learn about what poverty actually looks like in America. Plenty of food, refrigerator, freezer, television, game systems, air conditioning, etc.

Description of CAPITALISM and the culprit recipe for carbon imprint being released for creating the whole in the ozone layer. Yes, lots and lots of processed food, high caloric beverages, chips, canned food and top ramen.

THEN go to somewhere like Haiti, or Dominican Republic, or Cuba. I’ve been there and seen what poverty really is. I’ve seen what the poor there will do, the challenges they will overcome, just to come to America so that they can have a chance to be as wealthy as our poorest. THAT is poverty, and THERE you will find malnourishment.

I beg to differ and I highly doubt you have been to those places and found malnourishment. This video will debunk your claim of malnourishment in Cuba. Watch this video!!! >>>>> youtube.com/watch?v=Ayptla7xk14

Or, you can keep giving me “eek eyes” if that keeps you safely in your liberal shell.

More eek eyes! :bigyikes::bigyikes::bigyikes:

 

[Matilda_Bennett]

Please remember that discussions of particular political figures or parties are not allowed in the Social Justice forum. Thank you for your cooperation.

 

[holyreyes]

Was humanity ever fair for all people? Before sophisticated human inventions came along, the law of the jungle prevailed. It was a world where whoever was superior in finding food survived. Also whoever was successful in warding off competition or preying on neighbors survived. Consider the Inuit who hunt animals to survive. Anyone not prepared to endure the rigors of this lifestyle or to form clans which depend on this food source, move away or die. Is this fair?

During the days of Jesus in Galilee after iron tools and agriculture became available, day-to-day subsistence was the pattern. Very little extra income was available to the average person to be able to afford to give to the poor. Under-nutrition and disease was rampant. In many respects, most people were poor, just barely able to eke out a living. How could the poor give to the poor? Was this fair? Some people, namely royalty, politicians, soldiers, and merchants did better than the average person. In other words, there was the minority affluent class, and the vast majority of poor people. If you were poor and your entire village was poor, that was equality and fairness. Everybody suffered equally.

Nowadays, we fret about the huge numbers of poor people as if this were a new phenomenon. We blame those who have been able to escape poverty for the existence of poverty. Making wise decisions has enabled those successful people to rise above the average uninformed person, who may waste a lot of his income unknowingly. Whose fault is that? Making affluent people feel guilty will not help. Poverty has been around ever since humans walked the earth and it is not likely to disappear.

nmgauss,

The point is if capitalism can help irradicate poverty then why is it that the gap between the rich and the poor keeps getting bigger? It isn’t working…

“Some people continue to defend trickle-down theories which assume that economic growth, encouraged by a free market, will inevitably succeed in bringing about greater justice and inclusiveness in the world. This opinion, which has never been confirmed by the facts, expresses a crude and naïve trust in the goodness of those wielding economic power and in the sacralized workings of the prevailing economic system… The promise was that when the glass was full, it would overflow, benefitting the poor. But what happens instead, is that when the glass is full, it magically gets bigger nothing ever comes out for the poor.” Pope Francais

 

[dshix]

Your statment could not be any more erroneous to say that there isn’t malnourished person in America. There are malnourished peolple in every country of the world. I guess, someone else other than me defined what the word malnourish means. You should go back and reread. This is redundancy but poor obese people in America are very, very, very malnourished because of the lack of quality of food they eat…

Ok, give us an example… I wonder how many times we’ll have to ask you this…

Description of CAPITALISM and the culprit recipe for carbon imprint being released for creating the whole in the ozone layer. Yes, lots and lots of processed food, high caloric beverages, chips, canned food and top ramen.

Yet more propaganda? Come on.

More eek eyes! :bigyikes::bigyikes::bigyikes:

You really, really need to mature your method of discussion. You will lose all credibility (if you haven’t lost it already) if continue acting like a teenager. Ignoring all arguments which you cannot refute, simply because you DO NOT WANT to face the truth.

 

[Boatswain2PA]

More eek eyes! :bigyikes::bigyikes:
Your statment could not be any more erroneous to say that there isn’t malnourished person in America. There are malnourished peolple in every country of the world. I guess, someone else other than me defined what the word malnourish means. You should go back and reread. This is redundancy but poor obese people in America are very, very, very malnourished because of the lack of quality of food they eat…

I practice medicine. Malnourishment is a deficiency in calories, vitamins, and minerals required to thrive. I have NEVER had an American patient who met that criteria because of poverty. I’ve seen it, but it’s always been due to serious medical, mental health, or legal issues. Obese people are not malnourished. Big Mac’s have sufficient vitamins and minerals, and wayyyy too much calories.

Description of CAPITALISM and the culprit recipe for carbon imprint being released for creating the whole in the ozone layer. Yes, lots and lots of processed food, high caloric beverages, chips, canned food and top ramen.

YES, you are finally getting it. CAPITALISM allows the “poor” to have all of those great things. That is why capitalism is great.

Try to educate yourself on ozone. The liberal alarmist theorists screaming “THE OZONE HOLE IS GROWING” is just sooo 80’s! Ozone is an unstable molecule composed of three oxygen atoms (whereas O2, a molecule with two oxygen atoms, is very stable). Ozone’s instability requires energy to maintain it’s form; usually energy in the form of UV sunlight. Where do we get the least UV sunlight? On the poles. Where were the liberal alarmists screaming about the “ozone holes” in the 80’s? Over the north and south pole.

The new liberal alarmist theorists screaming about global warming (cough, cough, I mean,…err…“global climate change”) has NOTHING to do with ozone. However these new, modern day alarmists don’t understand the carbon cycle. (or, more alarmingly, they DO understand it, but are preying on people’s fears for financial gain (ala Al Gore!))

I beg to differ and I highly doubt you have been to those places and found malnourishment. This video will debunk your claim of malnourishment in Cuba. Watch this video!!! >>>>> youtube.com/watch?v=Ayptla7xk14

I’ve been to two of the three (DomRep and Haiti), and I have seen astonishing poverty. True poverty that is heartbreaking. THIS is where you find malnourishment. This is also where you find people undertaking herculean tasks simply to reach our shores. They put themselves and their families at tremendous peril just for the CHANCE so they can be as wealthy as our poor. And yes, I HAVE PERSONALLY SEEN IT.

Perhaps Cuba was a poor example for me to use.

Have you ever seen a starving person here in America? Can you tell me about it? Very few people in America really have (unless, again, it is a medical/mental health/legal issue).

 

[holyreyes]

You really, really need to mature your method of discussion. You will lose all credibility (if you haven’t lost it already) if continue acting like a teenager. Ignoring all arguments which you cannot refute, simply because you DO NOT WANT to face the truth.

Argumentum ad Hominem… Relax. Keep your cool. It’s not “the end of the world!” Have some sense of humor…

 

[holyreyes]

Have you ever seen a starving person here in America? Can you tell me about it? Very few people in America really have (unless, again, it is a medical/mental health/legal issue).

YES, YES, AND MORE YES! Have you tried reaching out to the poor like Pope Francais does? Try going to the inner cities and volunteering to soup kitchens while you eat and talk with the poor.

Sometimes, we need to get out of our secured and gated mansions with manicured lawns and drive around and see the real world.

 

[Boatswain2PA]

Can you tell me more about this malnourished person you met in America? Was this an obese malnourished person? Or a starving person?? Where were they? How far away from the nearest food pantry were they? What kept them from getting to the food pantry? To the WIC office? To the Social Security office? To the closest Catholic Church? Closest protestant church? Muslim church?

Capitalism has given America a robust safety net system to prevent true hunger.

BTW - I am the parish coordinator for a local poverty reduction program. Also, don’t think I’m this uber-wealthy guy looking down from my ivory tower, the first several years of practicing medicine usually entails paying off student loans.

 

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

I never heard of such a thing. Regardless of who they vote and what they believe, the “dependance class” of poor must be elevated from poverty by your political party if they are truly Christian.

No political party or government can elevate people from poverty. Only a prosperous private sector can provide the jobs and means of increasing wealth.
A liberal/socialist government can make poor people very comfortable in poverty by taking money from others by force and providing for the poor. When more public provisions are made to people, the less they provide for themselves and become poorer (Dependence)
Conversely, if less was done for the poor, the more they would do for themselves, and become richer.

:bigyikes:
The natural resources of the Earth is ALWAYS available to as many people even without free market…

That is very true, Holyreyes…

But I, for one, have found it to be a difficult and expensive process to refine my own gasoline. I prefer to allow the Free Market to provide that staple along with countless other natural resources that I use to maintain my standard of living…I’m sure you do too.
You really should write a thank you note to Exxon every time you fill-up.

Maybe you should elaborate but my response to that is :bigyikes::bigyikes::bigyikes: As long as money is involved, the world will never ever be a better place. There wouldn’t be any peace, justice and standard of living beyond comprehension. The world would be doomed!

My dear friend…money has been around ever since a caveman carved out the first coin and called it “Wampam”. This old Earth of ours has gone round many times since then and mankind had certainly improved his lot in life. Count your blessings.
Like “Cash McCall” once said: “Money is nothing more than a means of keeping score.”

 

[holyreyes]

Can you tell me more about this malnourished person you met in America? Was this an obese malnourished person? Or a starving person?? Where were they? How far away from the nearest food pantry were they? What kept them from getting to the food pantry? To the WIC office? To the Social Security office? To the closest Catholic Church? Closest protestant church? Muslim church?

Capitalism has given America a robust safety net system to prevent true hunger.

BTW - I am the parish coordinator for a local poverty reduction program. Also, don’t think I’m this uber-wealthy guy looking down from my ivory tower, the first several years of practicing medicine usually entails paying off student loans.

Here if you want to learn more about the people I met, go to >>>>> stanthonysf.org/

 

[Boatswain2PA]

Here if you want to learn more about the people I met, go to >>>>> stanthonysf.org/

So you’ve met actually malnourished people at a food pantry/soup kitchen/homeless shelter?

First - thank you for (apparently) volunteering at one of these vitally important safety-net organizations. Our Catholic Church has always been one of the most important charity organizations in the world, and it couldn’t happen without people like you who volunteer their time.

However…I’ve been around a few organizations like that as well, and I can tell you there is still virtually NO actual malnourishment there. Lots of other issues, but very little actually no malnourishment.

Now look at some images of REAL poverty, where malnourishment is rampant.

bing.com/images/search?q=poverty+in+haiti+today&id=A6E2C4A65B3AC75064A0BE14573ECBE5C8B3BA25&FORM=IQFRBA

Capitalism isn’t perfect, but it’s better than all of the alternatives.

 

[holyreyes]

No political party or government can elevate people from poverty. Only a prosperous private sector can provide the jobs and means of increasing wealth.
A liberal/socialist government can make poor people very comfortable in poverty by taking money from others by force and providing for the poor. When more public provisions are made to people, the less they provide for themselves and become poorer (Dependence)
Conversely, if less was done for the poor, the more they would do for themselves, and become richer.

I do believe in “work” in the true essence that it benefits for the sake of others. The work that the world offers us is not the true sense of work that God intends us to do. We are given a Capitalistic work that is rather selfish in every sense of the word and forced labor by secular, aetheistic communist.

You seem to be saying that capitalistic work is the only solution in elevating poverty. There are virtually so many people who can’t work because of disability. What are you going to do with those people? Are you then against the socialist benefit they get from Social Security? What are you going to do with the millions of baby boomer seniors who cannot work?

 

[holyreyes]

So you’ve met actually malnourished people at a food pantry/soup kitchen/homeless shelter?

First - thank you for (apparently) volunteering at one of these vitally important safety-net organizations. Our Catholic Church has always been one of the most important charity organizations in the world, and it couldn’t happen without people like you who volunteer their time.

However…I’ve been around a few organizations like that as well, and I can tell you there is still virtually NO actual malnourishment there. Lots of other issues, but very little actually no malnourishment.

Now look at some images of REAL poverty, where malnourishment is rampant.

bing.com/images/search?q=poverty+in+haiti+today&id=A6E2C4A65B3AC75064A0BE14573ECBE5C8B3BA25&FORM=IQFRBA

Capitalism isn’t perfect, but it’s better than all of the alternatives.

I grew up in a country where poverty is rampant. But to ignore the poverty in the rich country like USA is a travesty… You can’t simply look at the outer appearance of a person to say that he is not suffering from poverty. Poverty does not only imply food but also shelter, finance, attention, affection, love… So many people are being neglected.

 

[Boatswain2PA]

I grew up in a country where poverty is rampant. But to ignore the poverty in the rich country like USA is a travesty… You can’t simply look at the outer appearance of a person to say that he is not suffering from poverty. Poverty does not only imply food but also shelter, finance, attention, affection, love… So many people are being neglected.

Absolutely! But there is a big difference between malnourishment level of poverty and what you describe above. Malnourishment level of poverty is virtually nonexistant in the US due to our robust safety net (which includes your St. Anthony’s). I think it is all of our responsibility to help out those who are less fortunate than ourselves, and I am proud to be associated with the Catholic Church which does so much for so many.

However this thread is about capitalism. If you look at the levels of poverty, the poor in free-market nations are MUCH better off than those in nations who prevent free-market economics.

 

[holyreyes]

Absolutely! But there is a big difference between malnourishment level of poverty and what you describe above. Malnourishment level of poverty is virtually nonexistant in the US due to our robust safety net (which includes your St. Anthony’s). I think it is all of our responsibility to help out those who are less fortunate than ourselves, and I am proud to be associated with the Catholic Church which does so much for so many.

However this thread is about capitalism. If you look at the levels of poverty, the poor in free-market nations are MUCH better off than those in nations who prevent free-market economics.

My brother, this thread is about “how ridiculous to think that the world will remain Capitialistic.” I have lived in America for about 3 decades. Of those years from school, healthcare and career, I would say that 90 % are of Socialist benefits I received that America provides. When crisis happened to me, I have yet benefitted from the private or capitalistic sectors. I wish Capitalism would step in to help out the poor or people in crisis. Not that I fully endorse Socialism but the Government of America provides these socialist services that I would say many Capitalist Americans take for granted. Would you be against all of these?

*military
*police
*firefighters
*voting
*Medicare
*Medicaid
*Social Security
*healthcare (state and county and via emergency room, for people who can’t pay)
*public libraries
*public schools
*government college grants, scholarships, and loans
*higway system (freeways/roads except toll roads)
*the FDA
*the EPA
*homeland security
*usps(i think, not sure)