Is it ludicrous to think that the world will remain Capitalistic?

[nmgauss]

Here is an excerpt from David Boaz’s article in Reason called 'The Man Who Told the Truth" featuring Robert Heilbroner, the famous committed socialist:
reason.com/archives/2005/01/21/the-man-who-told-the-truth

Socialism…must depend for its economic direction on some form of planning, and for its culture on some form of commitment to the idea of a morally conscious collectivity…

If tradition cannot, and the market system should not, underpin the socialist order, we are left with some form of command as the necessary means for securing its continuance and adaptation. Indeed, that is what planning means…

The factories and stores and farms and shops of a socialist socioeconomic formation must be coordinated…and this coordination must entail obedience to a central plan…

The rights of individuals to their Millian liberties [are] directly opposed to the basic social commitment to a deliberately embraced collective moral goal… Under socialism, every dissenting voice raises a threat similar to that raised under a democracy by those who preach antidemocracy.

Few socialists outside the Communist Party are willing to acknowledge that real socialism means trading our “Millian liberties” for the purported good of economic planning and “a morally conscious collectivity.”

He was not entirely impervious to new evidence, however. In 1989, he famously wrote in The New Yorker:

“Less than 75 years after it officially began, the contest between capitalism and socialism is over: capitalism has won… Capitalism organizes the material affairs of humankind more satisfactorily than socialism.”

 

[starshiptrooper]

Not enough jobs for people? Fault? Come into the present time. Our economy is fundamentally changing. “Jobs” are going away as technology advances.

Yeah, practical cars killed lots of jobs in the horse and carriage industries, but they created many more jobs in mining, manufacturing, oil drilling and many other industries. Technology does not just kill jobs, it also creates new opportunities.

 

[holyreyes]

Zoltan Cobalt, nmgauss, Boatswain2PA, dshix, freeRADICAL

You guys are espousing OBJECTIVISM which is a philosophical system that originated as the personal philosophy of a religion basher, ATHEIST, Russian-born American writer Ayn Rand (1905–1982), saint of the Libertarians, who all believe that the proper moral purpose of one’s life is the pursuit of one’s own happiness (rational self-interest), that the only social system consistent with this morality is one that displays full respect for individual rights embodied in laissez-faire capitalism

In other words OBJECTIVISM is the pompous, self-righteous, arrogant audacity to think: "My life, my body and my mind are MINE and mine alone… therefore the products of my life are mine alone to do as I please…

Ayn Rand quotes:
“I swear, by my life and my love of it, that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine.”

“Money is the barometer of a society’s virtue.”

“Run for your life when any man tells you that money is evil. That sentence is the leper’s bell of an approaching looter.” MONEY IS EVIL, RUN!!!

“The TRUTH is not for all men, but only for those who seek it.”

“It only stands to reason that where there’s sacrifice, there’s someone collecting the sacrificial offerings. Where there’s service, there is someone being served. The man who speaks to you of sacrifice is speaking of slaves and masters, and intends to be the master.” OH DEAR!

“If any civilization is to survive, it is the morality of altruism that men have to reject.”

“There are two sides to every issue: one side is right and the other is wrong, but the middle is always evil.” OH DEAR!

Ayn Rand’s philosophy is contradictory to the Catholic, Christian and other religious faith. It is evil! You cannot be Catholic nor Christian nor religious to be espousing her philosophy.

 

[nmgauss]

The beauty of capitalism is that gathering information for making decisions concerning the individual enterprise is one of the jobs of the capitalist enterprise. Where socialism breaks down is the deficiency of reliable information by which to make decisions and control commerce. The capitalist is concerned mainly about his business. The socialist is concerned about all the businesses and all the beneficiaries of business, which has proven to be an extremely difficult task. This was proven upon the collapse of the Soviet Union. Productivity was decreasing in the 1970’s and 1980’s and nobody in the Soviet Union knew how to correct it.

Socialism is the result of idealists engaging in wishful thinking. In a perfect world, it makes sense. But in the face of imperfect humans, imperfect systems functioning, and an imperfect earth, it has failed to live up to its promises.

 

[holyreyes]

Originally Posted by holyreyes
Well said. But here are just some of my problems with Capitalism. It promotes secularism. It creates a false sense of reality(fake world). It is intrusive and destructive to the environment. It grossly uses the natural resources to foster a lifestyle of greed, power and prestige. It destroys the intimate spiritual relationship between nature and man. It only sees the material earth no more than just resources for making profits. It is unpredictable, volatile, exploitaive, inefficient, elitist, imperialistic, bombastic, pompous, discriminatory to the vulnerable poor etc, etc, etc…

Not a single one of those claims is true. Prove to me how a single one of those things you mentioned is a problem caused by a capitalist economic system because it is capitalist.

Here is an article by Adrian Pabst of The Guardian can prove you some of these points.

The crisis of free-market fundamentalism provides a unique opportunity for religions to match their compelling critique of secular global finance with potent practical action. Programmes such as Church-backed lending and Islamic microcredit offer concrete alternatives to mainstream banking which are open to people of all faiths and none.

Virtually all world religions enjoin their followers to respect strict ethical limits on economic production and exchange and to promote the public common good in which all can share. What is perhaps less well known is the theological argument that capitalism itself is the product of secularisation.

In his seminal book The Great Transformation, the Christian Socialist Karl Polanyi showed that capitalism was born when perennial values like the sanctity of life and land were abandoned, as was the idea that everything has more than just material meaning and economic utility. Stripped of their specific positions within social relations and their cultural significance, people and property were henceforth viewed as mere commodities whose value is exclusively determined by their market price. (The mass privatisation of commonly owned land through forced “enclosure” in 18th-century England marked a tipping point in the transition to a capitalist economy). Thus, the market ceased to be embedded in society and money was enthroned as the measure of all things. Capitalism is secular because it ascribes universal, real value to money alone – at the expense of the social, political, symbolic, cosmic and even religious significance of each person and all things.

As a number of religious leaders have pointed out over the past year, including most recently the archbishop of Canterbury, global finance rests on this secular conception of value. By tying the entire global economy to fake financial wealth that has neither produced real prosperity nor trickled down to the masses, neoliberalism exemplifies the secular delusion that money – divorced from real things – has any enduring value.

That’s why last October Pope Benedict XVI was right to say that the global financial system is "built on sand" and that monetary value alone is an illusion. This view resonates strongly with the archbishop of York’s description last September of share traders who cashed in on falling prices as “bank robbers and asset strippers” and his denunciation of Britain’s “idolatrous love of money” at the Church of England’s General Synod.

 

[Robert_Sock]

What I’m saying is that past socialistic societies had a dictator, and that blame for the horrid conditions within these socialist states must be with government, not its socialism.

 

[holyreyes]

Originally Posted by holyreyes
Well said. But here are just some of my problems with Capitalism. It promotes secularism. It creates a false sense of reality(fake world). It is intrusive and destructive to the environment. It grossly uses the natural resources to foster a lifestyle of greed, power and prestige. It destroys the intimate spiritual relationship between nature and man. It only sees the material earth no more than just resources for making profits. It is unpredictable, volatile, exploitaive, inefficient, elitist, imperialistic, bombastic, pompous, discriminatory to the vulnerable poor etc, etc, etc…

Not a single one of those claims is true. Prove to me how a single one of those things you mentioned is a problem caused by a capitalist economic system because it is capitalist.

Where have you seen Capitalists treat the surrounding nature spiritually like those of the native people all over the world like the Hawaiians have for the land for example? Haven’t God already told you in the book of Genesis how human beings are created? Tell me, under the umbrella of Capitalism, where have you seen the treatment of a poor person equal to someone who has a lot of money? The glare and the glitz of the hypnotizing Secular Capitalism of posh living can well be personified by Bruno Mars song

I wanna be a billionaire so bad
Buy all of the things I never had
I wanna be on the cover of Forbes magazine
Smiling next to Oprah and the Queen

Oh, every time I close my eyes
I see my name in shining lights
Yeah, a different city every night
Oh, I swear the world better prepare
For when I’m a billionaire

OMG! The young kids deserve more than this illusion of a Capitalist Utopia. LOL

 

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

Zoltan Cobalt, nmgauss, Boatswain2PA, dshix, freeRADICAL

You guys are espousing OBJECTIVISM which is a philosophical system that originated as the personal philosophy of a religion basher, ATHEIST, Russian-born American writer Ayn Rand (1905–1982), saint of the Libertarians, who all believe that the proper moral purpose of one’s life is the pursuit of one’s own happiness (rational self-interest), that the only social system consistent with this morality is one that displays full respect for individual rights embodied in laissez-faire capitalism

In other words OBJECTIVISM is the pompous, self-righteous, arrogant audacity to think: "My life, my body and my mind are MINE and mine alone… therefore the products of my life are mine alone to do as I please…

Ayn Rand quotes:
“I swear, by my life and my love of it, that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine.”

“Money is the barometer of a society’s virtue.”

“Run for your life when any man tells you that money is evil. That sentence is the leper’s bell of an approaching looter.” MONEY IS EVIL, RUN!!!

“The TRUTH is not for all men, but only for those who seek it.”

“It only stands to reason that where there’s sacrifice, there’s someone collecting the sacrificial offerings. Where there’s service, there is someone being served. The man who speaks to you of sacrifice is speaking of slaves and masters, and intends to be the master.” OH DEAR!

“If any civilization is to survive, it is the morality of altruism that men have to reject.”

“There are two sides to every issue: one side is right and the other is wrong, but the middle is always evil.” OH DEAR!

Ayn Rand’s philosophy is contradictory to the Catholic, Christian and other religious faith. It is evil! You cannot be Catholic nor Christian nor religious to be espousing her philosophy.

Gee…I am surprised it took you this long to notice…

Yes, I am a big fan of Ayn Rand. My only argument with her is her stand on abortion.
Think about this…an extremely intelligent woman who saw the horrors of SOCIALISM first hand, wrote about it and promotes an economic system that is fair, just, and virtuous.

Yes she was an atheist. Yes, she had little regard for organized religion. But I have more respect for her than the liberal Catholics who vote for politicians who openly violate the teachings of our Church and have the gall to receive Communion.

As far as:** “You cannot be Catholic nor Christian nor religious to be espousing her philosophy.”**

Well, Holyreys, old sport, you can take that and…well…shove it. Unless, of course, you really have the authority to speak Ex Cathedra

 

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

OMG! The young kids deserve more than this illusion of a Capitalist Utopia. LOL

Not to worry, Holy…you guys are winning.

The lesson being taught to school children today (by liberal socialist teachers) is that they are victims, have no opportunity because all the wealth is controlled by the evil rich…so they should just be happy and let the government support them from cradle to the grave.

 

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

Should we kick 40% of our fellow humans to the curb and advise them to ask a rich person for a job?

No, kicking a person is not kind. But if they are able to work, why not… advise them to ask a rich person, company, corporation or small business for a job?

I suppose you would expect the government to provide for them and make them comfortable in their unemployment. But that is nothing more than robbing Peter to pay Paul… and Paul will always vote for a government that pays him not to work.

I have a personal philosophy about work and productivity:

I keep what i earn and you keep what you earn. Now if you have a problem with that, please tell me how much of what i earn should go to you and why?

 

[holyreyes]

Gee…I am surprised it took you this long to notice…

Yes, I am a big fan of Ayn Rand. My only argument with her is her stand on abortion.
Think about this…an extremely intelligent woman who saw the horrors of SOCIALISM first hand, wrote about it and promotes an economic system that is fair, just, and virtuous.

Yes she was an atheist. Yes, she had little regard for organized religion. But I have more respect for her than the liberal Catholics who vote for politicians who openly violate the teachings of our Church and have the gall to receive Communion.

As far as:** “You cannot be Catholic nor Christian nor religious to be espousing her philosophy.”**

Well, Holyreys, old sport, you can take that and…well…shove it. Unless, of course, you really have the authority to speak Ex Cathedra

Nope, I knew it since I started reading people’s posts. Why would someone who is devoid of any holy spirit and divine virtue would be worth listening to about social and conomic issues? This is all about politics to you isn’t it? Maybe you want to also promote someone who is conservative, capitalist lover, billionaire messiah Sun Myung Moon ?

 

[holyreyes]

Deacon Jeff,

Zoltan Cobalt just confirmed that he espoused Objectivism, a fan and follower of Ayn Rand’s philosophies… I think others will confirm soon.

 

[freeRadical]

Again, I view the historical perspective as socialistic nations being dictatorships. It’s the dictatorships that caused these nations to abuse its citizens, not the underlying socialistic nature of these nations.

Are you going to answer my question or not? Why do you keep dodging it?

 

[freeRadical]

Zoltan Cobalt, nmgauss, Boatswain2PA, dshix, freeRADICAL

You guys are espousing OBJECTIVISM which is a philosophical system that originated as the personal philosophy of a religion basher, ATHEIST, Russian-born American writer Ayn Rand (1905–1982), saint of the Libertarians, who all believe that the proper moral purpose of one’s life is the pursuit of one’s own happiness (rational self-interest), that the only social system consistent with this morality is one that displays full respect for individual rights embodied in laissez-faire capitalism

In other words OBJECTIVISM is the pompous, self-righteous, arrogant audacity to think: "My life, my body and my mind are MINE and mine alone… therefore the products of my life are mine alone to do as I please…

Ayn Rand quotes:
“I swear, by my life and my love of it, that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine.”

“Money is the barometer of a society’s virtue.”

“Run for your life when any man tells you that money is evil. That sentence is the leper’s bell of an approaching looter.” MONEY IS EVIL, RUN!!!

“The TRUTH is not for all men, but only for those who seek it.”

“It only stands to reason that where there’s sacrifice, there’s someone collecting the sacrificial offerings. Where there’s service, there is someone being served. The man who speaks to you of sacrifice is speaking of slaves and masters, and intends to be the master.” OH DEAR!

“If any civilization is to survive, it is the morality of altruism that men have to reject.”

“There are two sides to every issue: one side is right and the other is wrong, but the middle is always evil.” OH DEAR!

Ayn Rand’s philosophy is contradictory to the Catholic, Christian and other religious faith. It is evil! You cannot be Catholic nor Christian nor religious to be espousing her philosophy.

You assume too much. I am not an objectivist, I am not a libertarian. How dare you spread these false claims about me.

It seems to me that you, like Robert, keep dodging my questions. If Capitalism is so bad, what do you think we should replace it with?

 

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

Nope, I knew it since I started reading people’s posts. Why would someone who is devoid of any holy spirit and divine virtue would be worth listening to about social and conomic issues? This is all about politics to you isn’t it? Maybe you want to also promote someone who is conservative, capitalist lover, billionaire messiah Sun Myung Moon ?

Is this not about politics?
Are socialism and Capitalism not social/political economic systems?
Do not governments meddle in the economic affairs of people?

Of course it’s about politics.

If this thread were titled: “Is it ludicrous to think that the world will remain Christian?” I would invoke the Holy Spirit and Divine virtue.

I am not that familiar with the the Rev Sun Myung Moon’s religious teachings but I can understand why you detest him.

The Moscow News called Rev. Moon “The most brilliant anti-communist and the No. 1 enemy of the state”.

With credentials like that…he is OK in my book.

 

[freeRadical]

Nope, I knew it since I started reading people’s posts. Why would someone who is devoid of any holy spirit and divine virtue would be worth listening to about social and conomic issues? This is all about politics to you isn’t it? Maybe you want to also promote someone who is conservative, capitalist lover, billionaire messiah Sun Myung Moon ?

Why should anyone listen to you about social and economic issues? It seems all you are capable of is argumentum ad hominems.

 

[freeRadical]

I do have a problem with a well-regulated capitalist economic system and I also have a degree in economics. Why should we replace it with Distributism? What can it do better then Capitalism?

 

[holyreyes]

Hello Deacon Jeff,

Jesus is THE WAY, THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE. Why would Catholics listen and follow someone else’s ways like Ayn Rand whose philosophies are antithesis to Jesus’ teachings? Jesus ministry is centered in helping and saving his brothers especially in helping the poor among us. He has a special soft spot for them that it breaks his heart to see them in that condition thus making it his basis for JUDGING us on how we treat the poor. We are to be judged according to

Matthew 25:35-42 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’ 37 “Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink?” 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’ 40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’” 41 “Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.” 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink."

It reaches God on how we treat the vulnerable poor.

“Give to everyone who begs from you; and of him who takes away your goods do not ask them again. And as you wish that men would do to you, do so to them.” Jesus Christ

“I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.” Jesus Christ

“For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and everyone who humbles himself will be exalted.” Jesus Christ

“For what shall it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his soul?” Jesus Christ

“Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.” Jesus Christ

“He who loves money will not be satisfied with money, nor he who loves wealth with his income; this also is vanity.” Ecclesiastes 5:10

“For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evils. It is through this craving that some have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many pangs.” Timothy 6:10

“Whoever oppresses the poor to increase his own wealth, or gives to the rich, will only come to poverty.” Proverbs 22:16

“You shall not lend him your money at interest, nor give him your food for profit.” Leviticus 25:37

“Whoever tries to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life will preserve it.” Luke 17:33

These are just some few examples. Are we going to start abandoning these teachings and start listening to Ayn Rand’s philosophies to be the driven force for our Catholic faith? I do not EVER want to go to that route.

Eve’s disobedience is the first “self interest” action that made human beings fall from the grace of God. We must put all our trust in Him alone to lead the way. Jesus said that the 2 greatest laws are his summation of the 10 commandments which is to Love God and Love your brothers as you yourself. If we are not to irradicate poverty and help the poor, then, yes, JUDGEMENT is upon us, but, if we are to give God the chance by dismantling the worldly god of money, and use our hearts instead to be the current mode of our actions, then we might see the LOVE AND MERCY OF GOD and head to that peaceful state of “utopia” to borrow their word which is actually called something else is to be realized. LET US GIVE CHRIST A CHANCE!

God Bless…

 

[holyreyes]

You assume too much. I am not an objectivist, I am not a libertarian. How dare you spread these false claims about me.

It seems to me that you, like Robert, keep dodging my questions. If Capitalism is so bad, what do you think we should replace it with?

Sorry I apologize… I thought you were… I actually answered it already but posted it on nmgauss… Go to post #411…

 

[holyreyes]