Is it ludicrous to think that the world will remain Capitalistic?

[freeRadical]

Sorry I apologize… I thought you were… I actually answered it already but posted it on nmgauss… Go to post #411…

Maybe you should think next time before you make baseless accusations about people.

Oh dear! LOL! God’s material creation are perfect, our ways are not. Our thoughts, actions, and feelings are corrupt. A perfect world does not imply everyone to have equal intelligence. In a perfect world, everyone is gifted by God with unique qualities and talents (which everyone already has). By using the gifts that God is bestowed upon us, we are all called to be good stewards of God’s providence to promote the public common good in which all can share.

Okay.

In a perfect world there is no such thing as an economy whereby you use currency to sell and buy. The work that you and all do is the God given talents that you and all have and love to do that benefit humanity. The resources that we have are more than sufficient, there’s more than abundance for everyone to share.

How do we decide what goods and services to produce? How do we decide how to distribute these goods and services?

In a perfect world one’s “professional” talent whether it be a care giver or a doctor or a janitor, all receive equal rewards of human kindness, human services and natural resources. My brother, this is not an unattainable utopia. This is easily attainable as it is readily available.

So a doctor and janitor receive equal “rewards”. How is that fair? How is that just? Good luck convincing anyone to become a doctor.

Just remove the other worldly God which is Money and everyone will function, survive and live prosperously equally from one another.

You really believe that if the concept of money vanished overnight that the world would suddenly become peaceful, prosperous, and people would be happy and share equally with one another? If so, you’re very naive.

Everyone will have to dig in their hearts to share. That is the idea of the utopian state. IT IS NOT A DIFFICULT TASK.

You mean everyone will be forced to share right?

 

[nmgauss]

The most unrealistic aspect of socialism is that everybody deserves to be supported, whether they work or not. Being supported is a right, not a privilege. Receiving largesse from the government does not obligate anybody to do anything in return. In fact one pays less in taxes by being dependent on the government. If a person decides to sit around all day and get drunk, that is OK with socialists.

To everyone according to his/her needs. The more needy one is ,the more government largesse is distributed. This means that a woman can have as many children as she wants, even if no one in the house is working, thus becoming more needy, and the government will increase support payments. Now with Obamacare, we have people purposely working less so that they can qualify for government-subsidized health care.

Since Pope Francis wants to give to the poor, gifts to the poor will increase under his guidelines, thus increasing his feeling of helping the poor. That makes him feel better, as well as making the Church feel better. The Church, by being needed by the poor, is able to feel self-satisfied that it is doing good.

 

[minkymurph]

From each according to his ability, from each according to his need. Sound familiar?

Actually no. Could you explain?

 

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

Hello Deacon Jeff,

Jesus is THE WAY, THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE. Why would Catholics listen and follow someone else’s ways like Ayn Rand whose philosophies are antithesis to Jesus’ teachings? Jesus ministry is centered in helping and saving his brothers especially in helping the poor among us. He has a special soft spot for them that it breaks his heart to see them in that condition thus making it his basis for JUDGING us on how we treat the poor. We are to be judged according to

It reaches God on how we treat the vulnerable poor.

“Give to everyone who begs from you; and of him who takes away your goods do not ask them again. And as you wish that men would do to you, do so to them.” Jesus Christ

“I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.” Jesus Christ

“For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and everyone who humbles himself will be exalted.” Jesus Christ

“For what shall it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his soul?” Jesus Christ

“Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.” Jesus Christ

“He who loves money will not be satisfied with money, nor he who loves wealth with his income; this also is vanity.” Ecclesiastes 5:10

“For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evils. It is through this craving that some have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many pangs.” Timothy 6:10

“Whoever oppresses the poor to increase his own wealth, or gives to the rich, will only come to poverty.” Proverbs 22:16

“You shall not lend him your money at interest, nor give him your food for profit.” Leviticus 25:37

“Whoever tries to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life will preserve it.” Luke 17:33

These are just some few examples. Are we going to start abandoning these teachings and start listening to Ayn Rand’s philosophies to be the driven force for our Catholic faith? I do not EVER want to go to that route.

Eve’s disobedience is the first “self interest” action that made human beings fall from the grace of God. We must put all our trust in Him alone to lead the way. Jesus said that the 2 greatest laws are his summation of the 10 commandments which is to Love God and Love your brothers as you yourself. If we are not to irradicate poverty and help the poor, then, yes, JUDGEMENT is upon us, but, if we are to give God the chance by dismantling the worldly god of money, and use our hearts instead to be the current mode of our actions, then we might see the LOVE AND MERCY OF GOD and head to that peaceful state of “utopia” to borrow their word which is actually called something else is to be realized. LET US GIVE CHRIST A CHANCE!

God Bless…

That is a beautiful sermon.

Jesus Christ worked for a living as a carpenter. Probably started as a young boy and worked up until he began His mission. Notable example! Even St Paul had to “make tents” on occasion to support himself.

From the time Christ was born He received “help” from “the rich” beginning with the Wise Men. Through His public life he was sheltered by people who owned homes (rich in those times) Lazarus (the rich one) provided the home Jesus lived in just before His Passion and Joseph of Arimathea (another rich man) provided Our Lord with his tomb.

I find it curious that there is no mention of gratitude to these people in Scripture. Did Jesus every say “Thank you”?

 

[holyreyes]

How do we decide what goods and services to produce? How do we decide how to distribute these goods and services?

It is challenge for you to think in an economist point of view to vision a world without our current world economy and money. We are to abide to God alone and he decides what talents and gifts to be given to each one(which we already have and acquired) and we are all called to be good stewards for everyone. You are to do the services according to your talents and profession. God has always been supplying us all the material goods. What we have didn’t simply appear because of money. It has always been created by him and he will continue to create all these things for us. I simply do not believe that we are only to move and do services and produce goods only because of money and not because of our hearts.

So a doctor and janitor receive equal “rewards”. How is that fair? How is that just? Good luck convincing anyone to become a doctor.

The philosophy is different. It is not what we can “make in a monetary sense of economy” more above our brothers but what and how good we can give them coming from our hearts. Aren’t we to be like Jesus who is God? If God can shine and rain down on all of us whether we are saints or sinners, doctors or janitors, then why can’t we? The persons who is being given the talents and gifts to build your house, to grow and supply your food, to cure your illnesses, to clean your houses, to teach your kids, etc… all will get the same reward in the form of human kindness and services and the natural resources across the board regardless of your “profession.”

You really believe that if the concept of money vanished overnight that the world would suddenly become peaceful, prosperous, and people would be happy and share equally with one another? If so, you’re very naive.

No, money will not vanish overnight. If we are to work toward dismantling and decontructing it then we would realize a world of peace and prosperous whose people share the services and rewards by each one. It is a communal living.

You mean everyone will be forced to share right?

Everyone has to use their hearts instead of money to be the mode of currency to do human kindness and services to his fellow brothers. That is according to the teachings of JESUS.

 

[holyreyes]

That is a beautiful sermon.

Jesus Christ worked for a living as a carpenter. Probably started as a young boy and worked up until he began His mission. Notable example! Even St Paul had to “make tents” on occasion to support himself.

From the time Christ was born He received “help” from “the rich” beginning with the Wise Men. Through His public life he was sheltered by people who owned homes (rich in those times) Lazarus (the rich one) provided the home Jesus lived in just before His Passion and Joseph of Arimathea (another rich man) provided Our Lord with his tomb.

I find it curious that there is no mention of gratitude to these people in Scripture. Did Jesus every say “Thank you”?

To die for ALL is more than saying “TY”

 

[minkymurph]

I would say that is rather harsh.

While SOME humans may be selfish the vast majority are doing nothing more than looking out for their own self interest. That is a natural human trait. To want the best that one can provide for one’s family and self is a virtue.

I can understand why you say that but it was not meant to be harsh, merely realistic and was not intended as a criticism. Being selfish is not always a bad thing and being self-sacrificing is not always good.

This is interesting…but I cannot imagine myself benefiting from “unfairness”. I will have to ask for an example of “unfairness”.

I can understand why you cannot imagine yourself benefiting from unfairness, but there are many examples of unfairness working for people. I Here is one and it is not imagined, it is an actual one.

Ten people apply for a public sector. Only one of those ten has no experience and he has less qualifications than everyone else, but his father lives next door to someone who holds a senior position. He gets the job. Not only does he get the job, he is lazy and incompetent and everyone else in the department has to carry him, but never disciplined. This is an example of unfairness working for someone -keeping them in job and a good worker out of it because they do not have an influential father.

Another examples of benefiting from unfairness include getting a job because you attended an exclusive school for affluent pupils irrespective of your qualifications and yes - it does happen.

I am sorry but I can fine no historical evidence to back that up.

It was merely an opinion not an assertion of evidence. You are entitled to disagree but the reason I gave for this opinion is socialism focuses on community to a greater extent than capitalism. Capitalism focuses on the individual. Would you disagree with this? Would you say socialism is more individualistic than capitalism?

The real attitude is more like WHEN me and mine are OK THEN we can focus on other things. Only when a society becomes prosperous can it begin to enjoy leisure time, promote creativity, support the arts, music, education and research. A socialistic society’s focus is not prosperity but on equality and service to the state or collective.

I agree we should put our first and only when a society becomes prosperous can it begin to enjoy the things you mention. A thriving economy is an essential element of any society and when people are prosperous they are more inclined to be generous. Centralized economies are inefficient and will inevitably fail but my point is in affluent societies, generally speaking, people tend to be more insular and less concerned about there neighbor than less affluent societies. There is evidence the affluent have weaker social bonds than the disadvantaged.

Nothing could be further from the truth.

Capitalists favor individualism and expect nothing that is not earned. Individualism holds that a civilized society, or any form of association, cooperation or peaceful coexistence among people, can be achieved only on the basis of the recognition of individual rights and that a group, as such, has no rights other than the individual rights of its members.

Socialism, collectivism and communism cannot recognize individual rights because they do not recognize individuals. They focus on the state and support a parasitic society of people who must be kept in a constant state of dependence.

I cannot disagree with what you say but the ‘rights’ are argument is another argument. It’s a valid argument but not what I was getting at.

Perhaps you have not experienced the same trends as I have, and perhaps I am guilty of my own ‘pet hate’ which is over-generalization. What I will say is from capitalism took off in my part of the world social bonds have weakened, communities have considerably weakened, and people have become incredibly lazy.

To illustrate, they don’t think they have to work hard or save anymore. They live on credit and think having a degree or being a manager entitles them to a big salary they don’t have to much to earn. My friends daughter left school at 16 with no qualifications and lasted a day in a job. She left because they wanted her to wash dishes!! That’s why we have so many people from less affluent countries employed here now, because they don’t think they are too good for washing dishes.

That is true. Socialist societies have a lower standard of living than Capitalist societies.
I wonder why. Perhaps it is because they place no value on the individual.

They have a lower standard of living because centralized economies are inefficient and there is no incentive for the individual. But, capitalist societies are much more materialistic and have weaker social bonds.

The primary principal of Capitalism IS JUSTICE.

I thought it was profit.

When the rights of the individual come first, all of society will flourish.

I would disagree because the reality is all of us to some extent must sacrifice individual rights for the good of society.

 

[freeRadical]

Actually no. Could you explain?

Marxism.

 

[freeRadical]

It is challenge for you to think in an economist point of view to vision a world without our current world economy and money. We are to abide to God alone and he decides what talents and gifts to be given to each one(which we already have and acquired) and we are all called to be good stewards for everyone. You are to do the services according to your talents and profession. God has always been supplying us all the material goods. What we have didn’t simply appear because of money. It has always been created by him and he will continue to create all these things for us. I simply do not believe that we are only to move and do services and produce goods only because of money and not because of our hearts.

You seem to misunderstand how society works and how people interact with each other. Who decides how much food should be produced, who should do the producing, and how is it distributed? It requires capital and labor to produce food.

The philosophy is different. It is not what we can “make in a monetary sense of economy” more above our brothers but what and how good we can give them coming from our hearts. Aren’t we to be like Jesus who is God? If God can shine and rain down on all of us whether we are saints or sinners, doctors or janitors, then why can’t we? The persons who is being given the talents and gifts to build your house, to grow and supply your food, to cure your illnesses, to clean your houses, to teach your kids, etc… all will get the same reward in the form of human kindness and services and the natural resources across the board regardless of your "profession."

What makes you think people will want to grow and supply food or be a doctor in your Utopia? Growing food is hard and becoming a doctor is hard and takes long years of schooling. Why would I want to work so hard to be a doctor if I get the same “reward” for just being a janitor?

No, money will not vanish overnight. If we are to work toward dismantling and decontructing it then we would realize a world of peace and prosperous whose people share the services and rewards by each one. It is a communal living.

I didn’t say money would vanish overnight. I said that you were naive for thinking that if there was no money, people would be prosperous and happy and willing share with one another. You assume that money is what causes all the evil in the world.

Communism? Really? You are very ignorant of history.

 

[minkymurph]

Marxism.

I am glad you explained that because I thought you were talking about something Jesus said - like the parable of the talents or, ‘to he much is given much will be asked in return.’ Or Paul - the Church is like a body and the strong should support the weak.

I also recall various authors (atheist) writing that secularism and Marxism were just Christianity all over again - just without God.

I know others who have read Karl Marx manifesto. Personally I never did because I have a life and get out. :dancing:

 

[freeRadical]

I am glad you explained that because I thought you were talking about something Jesus said - like the parable of the talents or, ‘to he much is given much will be asked in return.’ Or Paul - the Church is like a body and the strong should support the weak.

I also recall various authors (atheist) writing that secularism and Marxism were just Christianity all over again - just without God.

I know others who have read Karl Marx manifesto. Personally I never did because I have a life and get out. :dancing:

Note, I am not advocating Marxism. I was merely pointing out that what one poster said sounded a lot like something Karl Marx said.

 

[freeRadical]

It was merely an opinion not an assertion of evidence. You are entitled to disagree but the reason I gave for this opinion is socialism focuses on community to a greater extent than capitalism.

But Socialism has been condemned by the Popes and the Catholic Church

I would disagree because the reality is all of us to some extent must sacrifice individual rights for the good of society.

Why?

 

[minkymurph]

But Socialism has been condemned by the Popes and the Catholic Church

I think what Pope’s have condemned is secular/atheistic socialism. To my knowledge, and I stand to be corrected, they have not endorsed capitalism as political theory all Catholics should adhere to.

Why?

For an inexhaustive list of common sense reasons - but suffice to say for now we all have individual rights and as individual rights on occasion conflict, society balances individual rights by restricting or qualifying them for the good of society as a whole.

Would you honestly say you can see no occasion when the rights of a particular individual or group of individuals are, at least to a certain extent, restricted for the good of the whole of society?

 

[freeRadical]

I think what Pope’s have condemned is secular/atheistic socialism. To my knowledge, and I stand to be corrected, they have not endorsed capitalism as political theory all Catholics should adhere to.

They condemned Socialism period. Socialism is an economic system in which the means of production are owned by the State. It’s still socialism whether its secular or not, whether its atheistic or not. Non-atheistic Socialism is basically theocracy which the Church has condemned as well. I’m not saying the Church had endorsed Capitalism, but they haven’t condemned it like Socialism. Also, the Church has endorsed free enterprise and economic freedom.

For an inexhaustive list of common sense reasons - but suffice to say for now we all have individual rights and as individual rights on occasion conflict, society balances individual rights by restricting or qualifying them for the good of society as a whole.

By society I assume you mean government. You assume that the government (1) knows what is best for society as a whole and (2) cares about what is best for society as a whole.

Would you honestly say you can see no occasion when the rights of a particular individual or group of individuals are, at least to a certain extent, restricted for the good of the whole of society?

I didn’t say that rights aren’t restricted in the name of the “public good”. I said why do they need to be? If rights are restricted can they really be called rights anymore?

 

[holyreyes]

Why would I want to work so hard to be a doctor if I get the same “reward” for just being a janitor?

“To Whom Much is Given, Much is Required” Text: Luke 12:42 If cleaning for someone is not your line of expertise or profession or talent that God is bestowed upon you which must come from your heart, why would you even do it? You would not be able to do a good job of it because it is simply not your talent. To be thinking of the “reward” first goes against the core philosophy of being of service to others.

Communism? Really? You are very ignorant of history.

What makes you think so?

 

[freeRadical]

“To Whom Much is Given, Much is Required” Text: Luke 12:42 If cleaning for someone is not your line of expertise or profession or talent that God is bestowed upon you which must come from your heart, why would you even do it? You would not be able to do a good job of it because it is simply not your talent. To be thinking of the “reward” first goes against the core philosophy of being of service to others

But becoming a doctor require more than talent, it requires training, years of it. Training doctors requires all kinds of capital and investment not to mention teachers. Why would someone devote years of their life to something if they did not get some kind of reward for it. Also, a doctor’s life is hard. They are usually on call 24/7, it’s a very stressful job. Why would anyone do that if they could just do something easy and have plenty of extra time and leisure to pursue their hobbies? Especially if they get the same “reward” that a doctor does?

You keep dodging my questions, just like Robert, and do not give any direct, specific replies.

How do we decide what and how many goods and services are produced, who does the producing, and how those goods and services are distributed?

What makes you think so?

What makes me think what? That you’re a Communist? Because you talk about sharing everything and communal living, that’s why,

 

[holyreyes]

But becoming a doctor require more than talent, it requires training, years of it. Training doctors requires all kinds of capital and investment not to mention teachers. Why would someone devote years of their life to something if they did not get some kind of reward for it. Also, a doctor’s life is hard. They are usually on call 24/7, it’s a very stressful job. Why would anyone do that if they could just do something easy and have plenty of extra time and leisure to pursue their hobbies? Especially if they get the same “reward” that a doctor does?

You keep dodging my questions, just like Robert, and do not give any direct, specific replies.

How do we decide what and how many goods and services are produced, who does the producing, and how those goods and services are distributed?

What makes me think what? That you’re a Communist? Because you talk about sharing everything and communal living, that’s why,

Is the profession you pursue the talent and gift that God has bestowed upon you? Try asking God if what you do is according to his will?

I have answered your same questions so many times.

 

[freeRadical]

Is the profession you pursue the talent and gift that God has bestowed upon you? Try asking God if what you do is according to his will?

I have answered your same questions so many times.

You haven’t answered any of my questions. You just keep dodging them.

Just answer the questions. I guess I should have said “society” instead of “you”. In this Utopia of yours how does society decide what goods and services are produced, how many of each to produce, and who does the producing? How does society decide how to distribute these goods and services?

For example, how does society make sure enough food is produced to feed everybody? How does society decide how much food each person gets?

 

[nmgauss]

Is the profession you pursue the talent and gift that God has bestowed upon you? Try asking God if what you do is according to his will?

How does one determine the will of God when preparing for one’s life work? For that matter, how does one determine the will of God for anything concerning an individual?

 

[freeRadical]

By the way, the Catholic Church has condemned Communism too. Actually, it’s gone further than that, the Catholic Church has called Communism the Anti-Christ.