Is it ludicrous to think that the world will remain Capitalistic?

[minkymurph]

My definition of slavery is pretty simple. A person PHYSICALLY FORCED to do work is a slave. A person who works for no reward is also a slave. (a stupid slave)

Then your way behind the times. International Law has defined slavery, different from yours, and has stated it exits.

By my definition…yes…“all women who WORK(and are paid) as prostitutes are doing so voluntarily” and some of them do very well.
People who WORK in sweatshops may be exploited but if they are paid…they are not slaves.

So you don’t accept there is any such thing as a ‘sex slave?’ Human trafficking doesn’t gone on, pimps don’t beat and starve the women and take their passports? Documentaries that reported on this are wrong. It doesn’t happen? It’s all purely voluntary? With respect my friend your notions are not only uto

I’m sure the UN means well but until they do some serious condemnation of the major countries STILL involved in REAL slavery…they should refrain from defining anything.

So slavery does exist then? What it the UN not doing they should be? What have they done to date?

Slavery cannot exist in a Capitalist Society

It can, it does, and that is a fact.

 

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

I don’t understand what you mean here?

It’s really quite simple, Murph…

It is not nice to make a profit at someone else’s expense.

Why is it not understandable when I agree with you???

I would say I’m a lot more cynical than you, but I would argue more realistic. Honest, decent people wouldn’t do lots of things, but if you are saying there are all these nice, honest businessmen out there who don’t exploit people don’t make a profit at their employees expense, I really do think you see the world through rose-coloured glasses.

Sure…bad things exist in the world today.

I am just presenting ideas to counter the ridiculous premise :…

Is it ludicrous to think that the world will remain Capitalistic?

Actually the world would be a better place IF it was totally pure Capitalist

Of course, a Capitalist who provides a better product or service at a better price than his fellow Capitalist, could profit at the other Capitalist’s expense. But that is the risk we take and the rule of the game we play. In a true Capitalist economy there would be no hard feelings.

Yep!

The American Indian has been wiped out…by the welfare state…precisely.

How exactly do you come to that conclusion?

Didn’t you read my brief about Indians being wards of the government…?

Since 1831 Indians have been considered “wards” of the U.S. government. Today, they live in squalor on reservations in dilapidated government housing. Alcoholism and illiteracy remain at record levels. Supporters of Indians call for more government money. More government housing is provided and it goes to ruin in no time. Indians have no reason to work…they are cared for by the government from cradle to the grave. The few who have pursued higher education, assimilated into “the white man’s world” have been successful and do well on their own. They are the first to condemn the reservation system.

Next time you visit the Southwestern parts of the U.S. and stop at an indian Reservation…get past the tourist “trading post” and the cute Tee Pee’s and take a look at the reservation itself…if they let you get that far…not pretty.
minkymurph;1179744 [ 3:

I wouldn’t claim to be an authority on Native Americans but I HATE assimilation theories. Maybe they didn’t want to assimilate and why should they have had to?

You know…they really don’t have to assimilate. No one does.
I got out of Hungary when I was 12. My father was killed in the revolution and my mother was detained by the Russians and never seen again. All I wanted to do was go to America with my uncle and see Disneyland. I was overjoyed to assimilate.
I really didn’t have to…but I thank God that I did.

Originally Posted by Zoltan Cobalt View Post
I find it a real tribute(sarcastic font) to government welfare when I see a once noble warrior sleeping in a recliner outside a ruined trailer house surrounded by empty beer cans.

And what do you think would have prevented that from happening and what do you think could be done now to turn it around?

Assimilation, of course.

No. I was generous enough to state what I thought were the weaknesses of socialism. Anyone can say, ‘you tell me what the weaknesses are,’ but anyone needs to say that either doesn’t understand the theory the endorse because EVERY theory has one irrespective of how good it is, or genuinely or intentionally can’t see things from any perspective other than their own.

Yes, you have stated many weaknesses of socialism and I have amplified the evils of that system.

You have asked me to state weaknesses of Capitalism…something I embrace with a passion. I can’t!

I can think of no weaknesses in a true, pure Capitalist economic society.

I cannot understand people who must find faults or diminish the value of something that is intrinsically good.

How can I find faults or weaknesses in a system that I believe to be the BEST for all mankind?

Given that you have said there are no ‘real’ capitalist societies that is now. Is your approach to sit back and wait until someone else makes the world the way you want it to be? If so, is that what you describe as humanitarian?

Murph…since we started this very interesting discussion I have noticed two tangents that you have brought to the “party”.

Humanitarianism

and

Welfare.

I have sort of avoided them and tried to stick with the Capitalism vs. socialism theme.

The only economic system that is truly humanitarian is Capitalism since it values individual rights and is based on justice.

Welfare has no place in Capitalism since it is replaced by charity and benevolence.

 

[nmgauss]

In the late nineteenth century in the U.S., capitalism was flourishing but went through financial crises similar to the recent severe recession that hit hard in 2008. They were called panics. The fault was in the buying and selling of securities and commodities… I don’t know if this activity is pure capitalism or is a vehicle for enhancing capitalism.

Several panics occurred into the first decade of the twentieth century and the proposed solution was the creation of the Federal Reserve to control the supply of money. Later the Securities and Exchange Commission was created to set up rules on securities trading. Thus free capitalism was curtailed by these two agencies.

Was this good or bad for capitalism?

 

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

Then your way behind the times. International Law has defined slavery, different from yours, and has stated it exits.

I reject international law’s definition.

I have seen slavery…REAL slavery. People chained together. Cold and shivering. Told , in no uncertain terms, that if they didn’t do the work they were told to do…they would be shot.

Young men and women gathered like cattle and thrown into trucks and taken from far their villages to work in rice fields. Again told that they would be shot if they did not plant enough rice.

I simply cannot compare that SLAVERY with someone sitting at a sewing machine and getting paid. (low wages for sure)…who can get up and go home at the end of the day. If she CHOOSES not to go to work the next day her concern is hunger…not a bullet in the head.

So you don’t accept there is any such thing as a ‘sex slave?’ Human trafficking doesn’t gone on, pimps don’t beat and starve the women and take their passports? Documentaries that reported on this are wrong. It doesn’t happen? It’s all purely voluntary? With respect my friend your notions are not only uto

Yes I accept that “sex slaves” exist. Yes human trafficking does go on. Yes, pimps beat women. Whenever a person is PHYSICALLY FORCED to do work for another…that is SLAVERY.

But let us not define a job that is repulsive by our standards as slavery. Poor working conditions, long hours and hard work that produces a low wage may just be keeping someone from starving.

I

Slavery cannot exist in a Capitalist Society

can, it does, and that is a fact.

Prove it!

Have you seen any “press gangs” roaming around the streets of Dublin chaining up people and carrying them off???
Do slavers make regular trips to Belgium to collect “sex slaves”?

We agree that slavery exists…in what Capitalist Society does slavery exist?

 

[minkymurph]

So, sometimes, bad wages are a product of where a person is, or of the ability of the employer to pay.

I do like the way Augustine and Aquinas defined “justice in trade”. A trade is just when i trade that which I value less for that which I value more, and the other party does the same thing. When one thinks about it, that’s largely true at least in this country, in almost every transaction. Probably it was true in Macedonia too, but on a much lower level.

It is true there are many reasons for bad wages. So we can’t generalize and say, ‘what if,’ or ‘this is good or this is bad’ in all circumstances. We have to deal with things as they are.

It’s not profit or being rich I see as bad, but exploitation and oppression for profit and to be rich. Lets not be naive and say people wouldn’t do that. They would and do.

 

[minkymurph]

Prove it!

Have you seen any “press gangs” roaming around the streets of Dublin chaining up people and carrying them off???
Do slavers make regular trips to Belgium to collect “sex slaves”?

We agree that slavery exists…in what Capitalist Society does slavery exist?

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! That sounds like a challenge.

If I do will you admit capitalism has weaknesses?

I’ll give you this evidence to start with. If you reject it there is plenty more.

I took it you didn’t want evidence of sweat shops in those countries were life is cheap and people don’t matter, but I have may inadvertently thrown a few in, Feel free to ignore them.

nomoretraffik.com/human-trafficking

belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/trafficked-woman-held-as-a-slave-in-belfast-flat-for-five-years-by-doctor-29966663.html

bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-19969954

belfasttelegraph.co.uk/debateni/blogs/human-trafficking-clause-that-criminalises-prostitution-is-no-safeguard-for-sex-workers-30071270.html

notforsalecampaign.org/global-initiatives/netherlands/

gvnet.com/humantrafficking/Netherlands.htm

bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-26513804

sydney.edu.au/law/slr/slr31/slr31_3/Tang.pdf

humanrights.gov.au/news/speeches/beyond-wei-tang-do-australia-s-human-trafficking-laws-fully-reflect-australia-s

antislavery.org/english/slavery_today/what_is_modern_slavery.aspx

amnesty.org.uk/

globallabourrights.org/about?gclid=CIzi6Nzckb0CFWvkwgodhRoA0A

 

[minkymurph]

I reject international law’s definition.

I have to admit, it always tickles me when someone says they reject something in law. I always say, ’ That is you prerogative, but no one cares because it IS the law irrespective of what you think of it.’

Here is some more proof -

state.gov/j/tip/rls/tiprpt/2012/192367.htm

newsjunkiepost.com/2012/01/15/human-trafficking-modern-day-slavery-affecting-30-millions-women-and-children/

ecpat.org.uk/content/italian-senate-hosts-third-seminar-paht-project

havocscope.com/tag/italy/

bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19984615

nspcc.org.uk/Inform/resourcesforprofessionals/childtrafficking/child-trafficking-statistics_wda96895.html

 

[minkymurph]

And more.

These are academic sources so I don’t know if the link will work.

journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=8727259

learning.qol.qub.ac.uk/2131/LAW/3046-SPR-QUB/Resources/Week%204%20and%205%20–%20Property%20in%20People%20(JA)/UK%20Draft%20Modern%20Slavery%20Bill.pdf

 

[minkymurph]

It’s really quite simple, Murph…

It is not nice to make a profit at someone else’s expense.

Why is it not understandable when I agree with you???

Because I didn’t understand what you meant. Now I do.

I am just presenting ideas to counter the ridiculous premise :…

Is it ludicrous to think that the world will remain Capitalistic?

This is a good point to regroup and reevaluate. Some of my posts got a bit distorted as my computer is playing up. Now if this was Stalin’s Russia I wouldn’t be at such a disadvantage because ALL computers would be equally inefficient. :manvspc:

Capitalism will always be with us as it always has been from the dawn of civilization. Trade and property rights were essential features of every society. In Ireland there was no money until the Normans arrived in the 10th century and people lived by trading. That is a simplistic form of capitalism and people has respect for the property of another.

Since 1831 Indians have been considered “wards” of the U.S. government. Today, they live in squalor on reservations in dilapidated government housing. Alcoholism and illiteracy remain at record levels. Supporters of Indians call for more government money. More government housing is provided and it goes to ruin in no time. Indians have no reason to work…they are cared for by the government from cradle to the grave. The few who have pursued higher education, assimilated into “the white man’s world” have been successful and do well on their own. They are the first to condemn the reservation system.

Next time you visit the Southwestern parts of the U.S. and stop at an indian Reservation…get past the tourist “trading post” and the cute Tee Pee’s and take a look at the reservation itself…if they let you get that far…not pretty.

I meant prior to all that - before reservations were set up and lands invaded.

I have never been to the US.

You know…they really don’t have to assimilate. No one does.
I got out of Hungary when I was 12. My father was killed in the revolution and my mother was detained by the Russians and never seen again. All I wanted to do was go to America with my uncle and see Disneyland. I was overjoyed to assimilate.
I really didn’t have to…but I thank God that I did.

I agree no one should have to assimilate. I will give the US that one. You don’t have to be X. Y or Z to be an American Citizen.

Can’t argue with that one. I can understand why you hold the position you do, but I see a strong distinction between communism and democratic socialism. I will explain that.

Yes, you have stated many weaknesses of socialism and I have amplified the evils of that system.

You have asked me to state weaknesses of Capitalism…something I embrace with a passion. I can’t!

I can think of no weaknesses in a true, pure Capitalist economic society.

I cannot understand people who must find faults or diminish the value of something that is intrinsically good.

How can I find faults or weaknesses in a system that I believe to be the BEST for all mankind?

Then I’ll explain. My minor is politics. When I hand an essay in I am expected to have examined the weakness of my arguments because that demonstrates critical thinking. It also demonstrates you know how to deal with counter-arguments and defend what you think in the face of criticism. Acknowledging weaknesses does not mean one has to change one’s mind and it does not mean something is not longer ‘best,’ it means in spite of its weaknesses it’s the at worst, the least worst option. It is also possible to justify certain inequalities. That is something I am working on at the minute.

It’s similar with law. It’s not about who’s right but who can present the best argument, who can persuade the impartial observer, the court, to find in their favour?

 

[minkymurph]

I

Murph…since we started this very interesting discussion I have noticed two tangents that you have brought to the “party”.

Humanitarianism

and

Welfare.

I have sort of avoided them and tried to stick with the Capitalism vs. socialism theme.

The only economic system that is truly humanitarian is Capitalism since it values individual rights and is based on justice.

Welfare has no place in Capitalism since it is replaced by charity and benevolence.

It doesn’t matter what system you have in place if those hold power are not humanitarian. Both capitalism and socialism can be humanitarian, are not, depending on the application. The reason I fall on the side of socialism, that is democratic socialism, is because it does not just focus on the individual.

On the point of welfare -
By welfare I do not mean state hand outs or charity. It’s a much wider principle to me. At the end of the day a state hand out or charitable donation is a short term fix. There is nothing wrong with a short term fix. It can be the right thing to do but I support social welfare programs that enable the unproductive to become productive and the dependent autonomous as a long term solution.

To explain - I visit cafe regularly that is situated in a hospital and subsidized by the government. They employ people with Down’s Syndrome. They serve at the counter, clear tables and that and the able bodied take cash. That is what I mean by welfare. Yes, we could just hand them the money and give ourselves a big pat on the pack for being charitable. But, this cafe gives them a job, they are productive as much as they can be, and I argue in their way as productive as any rich industrialist, they have a degree of autonomy.

Give an alcoholic money they will buy drink. Take their welfare off them they turn to crime, but I suppose if you have a big house with gates, dogs and security guards and it won’t affect you it wouldn’t matter. But why not both? Why not say, OK, we will help you but you must enroll in a program to help you to help yourself?

Someone needs a wheelchair and can’t afford one? Get the whole community involved in fundraising. As students we do some mad things and our school has promised to match what we raise pound for pound. The point is people do
something, and together. They set a task one year that students had to see how far they could get in the world without actually spending any money? One guy made it to Ecuador! I think he won.

 

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

And more.

These are academic sources so I don’t know if the link will work.

journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=8727259

learning.qol.qub.ac.uk/2131/LAW/3046-SPR-QUB/Resources/Week%204%20and%205%20–%20Property%20in%20People%20(JA)/UK%20Draft%20Modern%20Slavery%20Bill.pdf

Bear with me Murph…

You have given me a ton of references to digest. There goes my weekend. Thank you very much…

Happy St Patrick’s Day.

I know it’s not a big deal over there, but it gets crazy here. EVERYONE is Irish…for a day. One local Mexican restaurant is serving Guinness Tortillas (?) You don’t want to know what goes on in the Asian communities…

Anyway, thanks to you, I have to do my homework here at the computer. I’ll probably miss out on the Guinness Tortillas…this year.

I’ll be back!..( said with an Arnold Schwartzennegr accent)

 

[freeRadical]

I have to admit, it always tickles me when someone says they reject something in law. I always say, ’ That is you prerogative, but no one cares because it IS the law irrespective of what you think of it.’

Here is some more proof -

state.gov/j/tip/rls/tiprpt/2012/192367.htm

newsjunkiepost.com/2012/01/15/human-trafficking-modern-day-slavery-affecting-30-millions-women-and-children/

ecpat.org.uk/content/italian-senate-hosts-third-seminar-paht-project

havocscope.com/tag/italy/

bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19984615

nspcc.org.uk/Inform/resourcesforprofessionals/childtrafficking/child-trafficking-statistics_wda96895.html

But international law does not overrule a sovereign state’s laws, no matter how much people think it does. International law is merely a set of guidelines that certain nations have agreed to abide by. Who enforces international law?

 

[minkymurph]

But international law does not overrule a sovereign state’s laws, no matter how much people think it does. International law is merely a set of guidelines that certain nations have agreed to abide by. Who enforces international law?

No it doesn’t overrule national law, but as you say as it is decided by the countries who have membership of the UN and that is what obliges them to adhere to it. There is of course a margin of appreciation.

Who enforces international law? Good question! Probably depends what resources are up for grabs and what countries have investments.

International law is enforced by nations that make up the UN is the simple answer. In a conflict situation peacekeeping forces may be authorized by the UN. Diplomats may be authorized by the UN to negotiate or sanctions may be imposed on a nation that breaks international law. Haiti was a UN op. On other occasions a country may solve its own issues with UN approval. An example of that was the handling the conflict in South Ossetia (may have spelt that wrong) and Georgia by Russia.

 

[minkymurph]

Bear with me Murph…

You have given me a ton of references to digest. There goes my weekend. Thank you very much…

I appreciate the fact you have a life so please do not read over everything in depth.

The point of the information I gave you is European countries have introduced slavery bills because of human trafficking. If they are doing that it exists.

Happy St Patrick’s Day.

And to you.

I know it’s not a big deal over there, but it gets crazy here. EVERYONE is Irish…for a day. One local Mexican restaurant is serving Guinness Tortillas (?) You don’t want to know what goes on in the Asian communities…

Anyway, thanks to you, I have to do my homework here at the computer. I’ll probably miss out on the Guinness Tortillas…this year.

I would love to go to New York for Paddy’s day. Everyone should be Irish for a day because being Irish is so much fun.:bounce:

We have a joke here everyone is Irish. I read in the paper recently Elvis had an Irish granny or something, and De Gaulle had an Irish great grandfather. It may be true. We went to stay with friends in Hong Kong and on our first night out, we walked into a bar, got talking to a couple at the next table, where was he from? Not only Ireland but Belfast.
Zoltan Cobalt;11803827:

I’ll be back!..( said with an Arnold Schwartzennegr accent)

I bet you will! Luv it.

 

[TEPO]

But international law does not overrule a sovereign state’s laws, no matter how much people think it does. International law is merely a set of guidelines that certain nations have agreed to abide by. Who enforces international law?

The international community? Sort of like the United States enforcing national law.

 

[nmgauss]

No it doesn’t overrule national law, but as you say as it is decided by the countries who have membership of the UN and that is what obliges them to adhere to it. There is of course a margin of appreciation.

Who enforces international law? Good question! Probably depends what resources are up for grabs and what countries have investments.

International law is enforced by nations that make up the UN is the simple answer. In a conflict situation peacekeeping forces may be authorized by the UN. Diplomats may be authorized by the UN to negotiate or sanctions may be imposed on a nation that breaks international law. Haiti was a UN op. On other occasions a country may solve its own issues with UN approval. An example of that was the handling the conflict in South Ossetia (may have spelt that wrong) and Georgia by Russia.

Now that Russia has put its mitts on Crimea at the objection of Ukraine, pressure for Putin to relent on Chechnya might be justified. If the Chechnyans don’t want to be part of the Russian Federation, why must they? I wonder if they have ever had a referendum?

 

[minkymurph]

The international community? Sort of like the United States enforcing national law.

Sometimes that does happen - yes. There is a lot of political play in the enforcement of international law.

 

[minkymurph]

Now that Russia has put its mitts on Crimea at the objection of Ukraine, pressure for Putin to relent on Chechnya might be justified. If the Chechnyans don’t want to be part of the Russian Federation, why must they? I wonder if they have ever had a referendum?

This is a serious problem for the UN. It’s a very good point to raise. On one hand the UN supports self-determination yet on other, they must respect borders and not interfere with internal disputes. So yes, another example of the weaknesses of international law.

 

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

I appreciate the fact you have a life so please do not read over everything in depth.

The point of the information I gave you is European countries have introduced slavery bills because of human trafficking. If they are doing that it exists.

And to you.
Zoltan Cobalt;11803827:

I know it’s not a big deal over there, but it gets crazy here. EVERYONE is Irish…for a day. One local Mexican restaurant is serving Guinness Tortillas (?) You don’t want to know what goes on in the Asian communities…

Anyway, thanks to you, I have to do my homework here at the computer. I’ll probably miss out on the Guinness Tortillas…this year.

I would love to go to New York for Paddy’s day. Everyone should be Irish for a day because being Irish is so much fun.:bounce:

We have a joke here everyone is Irish. I read in the paper recently Elvis had an Irish granny or something, and De Gaulle had an Irish great grandfather. It may be true. We went to stay with friends in Hong Kong and on our first night out, we walked into a bar, got talking to a couple at the next table, where was he from? Not only Ireland but Belfast.

I bet you will! Luv it.

OK…Herrrrre’s Zoltan…I’m back!

I have finished ALL your references and have a conclusion. It can very well be taken as a “cop-out” conclusion but it is accurate.

You said slavery exists in Capitalist countries…I maintain that slavery cannot exist in a Capitalist society.

Your references point out the horrors of human trafficking…and I would be less than honest if I minimized or claimed that evil practice does not exist.

My “cop-out” response would have been that most of the countries referenced by your links are totalitarian or dictatorships and those with a democratic or republican system are not a pure Capitalist economy. But you would need more than that…

So, I dug deeper into the information you provided. I found what I needed in your link:

journals.cambridge.org/action…ne&aid=8727259

International and Comparative Law Quarterly

Currently there is no clear understanding of the meaning of ‘slavery’ in modern international law.

While generally it is accepted that the authoritative definition of slavery is provided by Article 1 of the Slavery Convention 1926, in recent times slavery has been understood in such a wide variety of ways that effectively it is a meaningless term.

Authors: Jean Allain-- Professor of Public International Law, School of Law, Queen’s University Belfast, Extraordinary Professor, Human Rights Centre, Faculty of Law, University of Pretoria, South Africa

Robin Hickey-- Senior Lecturer, Durham Law School

We are arguing “definitions”

As another "International Scholar wrote:

But let us not define a job that is repulsive by our standards as slavery

. Poor working conditions, long hours and hard work that produces a low wage may just be keeping someone from starving. – Zoltan Cobalt, Catholic Answers Forum, March 13th 2014

I still maintain that slavery cannot exist in a Capitalist society. Freedom and individual rights are the cornerstones of true Capitalism. No man has the right to enslave another – that is a violation of individual rights. Government exists solely to protect those rights.

 

[minkymurph]

OK…Herrrrre’s Zoltan…I’m back!

Hi Zoltan.

I have finished ALL your references and have a conclusion. It can very well be taken as a “cop-out” conclusion but it is accurate.

An accurate cop-out? I’m intrigued.

journals.cambridge.org/action…ne&aid=8727259

International and Comparative Law Quarterly

Authors: Jean Allain-- Professor of Public International Law, School of Law, Queen’s University Belfast, Extraordinary Professor, Human Rights Centre, Faculty of Law, University of Pretoria, South Africa

Robin Hickey-- Senior Lecturer, Durham Law School

We are arguing “definitions”

As another "International Scholar wrote:

I still maintain that slavery cannot exist in a Capitalist society. Freedom and individual rights are the cornerstones of true Capitalism. No man has the right to enslave another – that is a violation of individual rights. Government exists solely to protect those rights.

You read all that? I am impressed! Glad the links worked.

We are arguing definitions. Slavery cannot lawfully exist in a capitalist society but a practice that is the equivalent of slavery can certainly exist and as the evils of human trafficking demonstrates - does. As you say, it all depends on your definition of slavery.

The law needs a means of controlling human trafficking. They have chosen to label it slavery because the laws on human trafficking are rooted in property law. In a capitalist society an individual cannot be owned by another as you say, but that does not mean no one treats anyone as if they own them. At law, slavery is defined as exercising control over another individual in ways that attach to the rights of ownership. A key factor (Tang case) is where a person is not free to leave. As you say, that is an infringement of the right to liberty. That right may be a cornerstone of capitalism and one that is fiercely protected and defended, but that does not mean infringements of that right don’t happen.

Now, if you argue human trafficking is not slavery, how would you define it? Do you think property law is the correct means to address the issue? If not, what would you suggest?