Is it ludicrous to think that the world will remain Capitalistic?

[nmgauss]

That is difficult, given that the only pure laissez-faire capitalism is the pilgrims? Or have I got that wrong?

Go to any provincial town on market day to see laissez-faire capitalism at work. So called farmer’s markets are laissez-faire. Flea markets are laissez-faire. In fact, there is no middle man in either of these operations. Capitalization is minimal.

 

[minkymurph]

Americans do not need a passport to cross state lines. Also, a passport is not needed when crossing the border into Mexico and Canada. One can fly to Alaska, Puerto Rico and Hawaii without a passport. Only those who want to go farther need one. So why is it so bad when only 10% of Americans have a passport?

It’s not. The point I was making was Zoltan said something to the effect that any employment outside America was like slavery. I was curious as to how he drew this conclusion.

 

[minkymurph]

Go to any provincial town on market day to see laissez-faire capitalism at work. So called farmer’s markets are laissez-faire. Flea markets are laissez-faire. In fact, there is no middle man in either of these operations. Capitalization is minimal.

I asked Zoltan for an example of what he terms ‘real’ capitalism. His claim was ‘real’ capitalism does not exist. I asked for an example and the only one he gave me was the pilgrims.

I agree there are many examples, but as I understood things Zoltan would not accept many of these examples as he would consider them ‘mixed’ and not ‘pure’ capitalism, and he stated I could only use examples of ‘real’ capitalism.

 

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

It’s not. The point I was making was Zoltan said something to the effect that any employment outside America was like slavery. I was curious as to how he drew this conclusion.

Oh, come on, Murph…lighten up.

I was just being a nationalistic patriot.

Robert Sock"s comment:… “When I worked here in America, I really did not want to be there but was forced with implicit threats of homelessness.”…annoyed me. My comment was directed at him.

 

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

I asked Zoltan for an example of what he terms ‘real’ capitalism. His claim was ‘real’ capitalism does not exist. I asked for an example and the only one he gave me was the pilgrims.

I agree there are many examples, but as I understood things Zoltan would not accept many of these examples as he would consider them ‘mixed’ and not ‘pure’ capitalism, and he stated I could only use examples of ‘real’ capitalism.

I think the Pilgrims are the BEST example of Capitalism because it produced prosperity… the exact opposite of the results produced by their original socialistic experiment.

I also pointed out the Industrial Revolution as a great example of true Capitalism. The success and prosperity that began in the early 1800’s and lasted until WWI when governments thought it best to control industry.

I will be the first to agree that there are MANY weaknesses and problems in what are perceived to be Capitalist economies today. Sad. Because young people like yourself, only see it as a negative.

 

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

Thanks! I’m never far away, and I think you guys are carrying on a great conversation.

Based on your reasoning, a slave is perfectly free to refuse to work too. They would probably get beaten, but not experience homelessness. Slaves are not free to switch owners, but such is not much of a freedom assuming slave owners basically treat their slaves in a similar fashion. The ‘free’ workers are able to switch employers, but that’s of little consolation given the employers are also so similar to each other. Yes, we are free in that respect,** but it’s of little consolation.**

I think you feel that way because you have enjoyed freedom and have never lived in a totalitarian state.

Capitalism is like a pyramid, with ‘successful’ entrepreneurs at the top of the pyramid and less successful towards the bottom. Thus, the capitalistic societies always have the same structure of a pyramid, no matter how competitive things get. Plus there is little chance that one will ever dethrone those in the upper part of the structure because of all the power and capital that those in the upper part of the pyramid ‘enjoy.’ Capitalism is anything but equal opportunity, but more like that of a caste system where one is born into wealth.

This is a perfect example of the misinformation that is spread about Capitalism.

Capitalism is pure equal opportunity.

In a Capitalist society, all human relationships are voluntary. Men are free to cooperate or not, to deal with one another or not, as their own individual judgments, convictions, and interests dictate. They can deal with one another only in terms of and by means of reason, discussion, persuasion, and contractual agreement, by voluntary choice to mutual benefit.

Capitalism demands the best of every man and rewards him accordingly. It leaves every man free to choose the work he likes, to specialize in it, to trade his product for the products of others, and to go as far on the road of achievement as his ability and ambition will carry him. His success depends on the objective value of his work and on the rationality of those who recognize that value.

 

[minkymurph]

Oh, come on, Murph…lighten up.

I was just being a nationalistic patriot. .

:newidea::newidea::newidea:

I’m light. :dancing:

 

[minkymurph]

OK. To date.
People on this thread I am starting to get a bit peeved.

These are the arguments that have been presented from I joined this thread I have read isn’t laissez-faire capitalism great and wouldn’t it solve all the problems of the world? Isn’t welfare terrible because it causes so many problems and these problems would be resolved be laissez-faire.

I have several problems with this.

1. I feel the onus for establishing theory by evidence is being palmed off onto me. That tells me there is no evidence for the great laissez-faire. If there was, the supporters would be hammering it. It it easy to sit back and critique what someone else says. Answering a question with a question or saying if only the world would accept what I say is so easy. Many questions I have asked have been ducked and that tells me other posters don’t have an answer meaning , their theory is weak. Do not ask me to spell it out. Go through the threads to see what I am talking about. I throw a challenge out to the capitalists. You are lazy. You sit back on your wealth and expect the socialist to defend and all you have to say isn’t capitalism so great? Get with the evidence and stop ducking issues.
2. I have provided evidence for my arguments. I don’t expect anyone to automatically agree, but I do expect more than all will be solved by laissez-faire but unfortunately I have no evidence because the society I want to live in does not exist.

All in all, tell me why I should covert and how non-interference will benefit me and my kids. Don’t generalize. Me and my kids. I bet you can’t. I would be happy if you prove me wrong, but I say there is no benefit for me and my kids in laissez-faire. Who thinks they can prove me wrong? Who is game enough to take me on in this argument?

 

[Robert_Sock]

I think you feel that way because you have enjoyed freedom and have never lived in a totalitarian state.

No, I would not want to live in totalitarianism, but I think you have overlooked the value of my comparisons.

This is a perfect example of the misinformation that is spread about Capitalism.

Capitalism is pure equal opportunity.

In a Capitalist society, all human relationships are voluntary. Men are free to cooperate or not, to deal with one another or not, as their own individual judgments, convictions, and interests dictate. They can deal with one another only in terms of and by means of reason, discussion, persuasion, and contractual agreement, by voluntary choice to mutual benefit.

Capitalism demands the best of every man and rewards him accordingly. It leaves every man free to choose the work he likes, to specialize in it, to trade his product for the products of others, and to go as far on the road of achievement as his ability and ambition will carry him. His success depends on the objective value of his work and on the rationality of those who recognize that value.

I do believe that the majority of people worldwide would disagree. I’m not necessarily a socialist, but as a psychologist I strongly believe we must have a system that promotes LOVE and cooperation.

LOVE!

 

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

OK. To date.
People on this thread I am starting to get a bit peeved.

These are the arguments that have been presented from I joined this thread I have read isn’t laissez-faire capitalism great and wouldn’t it solve all the problems of the world? Isn’t welfare terrible because it causes so many problems and these problems would be resolved be laissez-faire.

I have several problems with this.

1. I feel the onus for establishing theory by evidence is being palmed off onto me. That tells me there is no evidence for the great laissez-faire. If there was, the supporters would be hammering it. It it easy to sit back and critique what someone else says. Answering a question with a question or saying if only the world would accept what I say is so easy. Many questions I have asked have been ducked and that tells me other posters don’t have an answer meaning , their theory is weak. Do not ask me to spell it out. Go through the threads to see what I am talking about. I throw a challenge out to the capitalists. You are lazy. You sit back on your wealth and expect the socialist to defend and all you have to say isn’t capitalism so great? Get with the evidence and stop ducking issues.
2. I have provided evidence for my arguments. I don’t expect anyone to automatically agree, but I do expect more than all will be solved by laissez-faire but unfortunately I have no evidence because the society I want to live in does not exist.

All in all, tell me why I should covert and how non-interference will benefit me and my kids. Don’t generalize. Me and my kids. I bet you can’t. I would be happy if you prove me wrong, but I say there is no benefit for me and my kids in laissez-faire. Who thinks they can prove me wrong? Who is game enough to take me on in this argument?

I fell for your challenge and went through the threads and now I AM PEEVED.

You joined this thread with “Your two cents”. As it turned out that was nothing more than the typical liberal criticism of Capitalism.

You claim to have provided evidence for your arguments but all you provided was opinion and you admitted that yourself.

I have presented the benefits of Capitalism over and over. But like a true collectivist you cannot accept the truth.

To defend Capitalism, I have argued from a basis of ethics… that individuals have the right to do as they please, while respecting the same rights in others. I believe I defended the the virtue of self-interest and destroyed the ethics of altruism and sacrifice, which says that individuals are merely fodder for the benefit of others. And even more than this, I upheld the validity of reason, because the ability to reason is where our rights as individuals stem from.

Capitalism is superior because it is the system that embodies freedom. The collective benefits or “common good” of capitalism, are happy by-products of freedom, they are the last and the least important of the reasons why Capitalism is a force for good.

You asked for “evidence”. It was presented. You rejected it. What better evidence to support Capitalism than the FACTUAL HISTORY OF THE PILGRIMS and the INDUSTRIAL REVOLUTION. The latter of which raised the standard of living of its poorest citizens to heights no collectivist system has ever begun to equal, These are facts.

Now before you go any farther on your high horse, refute those facts.

 

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

No, I would not want to live in totalitarianism, but I think you have overlooked the value of my comparisons.

I do believe that the majority of people worldwide would disagree.

No. The majority of people world wide are not stupid. SOME would disagree.

I’m not necessarily a socialist, but as a psychologist I strongly believe we must have a system that promotes LOVE and cooperation.
LOVE!

I’m not a psychologist, but as an economist I will promise you that Capitalism is the best system to achieve LOVE and cooperation.

 

[nmgauss]

I do believe that the majority of people worldwide would disagree. I’m not necessarily a socialist, but as a psychologist I strongly believe we must have a system that promotes LOVE and cooperation.
LOVE!

The trouble with economic ideas that require human control, they work better when perfection in planning, information gathering and processing, and control is neared. Humans make mistakes in decision making and in carrying out instructions. They also let their egos get in the way of their thinking (e.g. Vladimir Putin). In addition perfect prediction of coming events needs to happen so that perfection in planning can handle variable coming events. Doing all of these is hard enough without having to consider a poorly defined concept such as LOVE. If the definition cannot be pinned down, LOVE cannot be incorporated into the system.

 

[minkymurph]

I fell for your challenge and went through the threads and now I AM PEEVED.

Good.

You joined this thread with “Your two cents”. As it turned out that was nothing more than the typical liberal criticism of Capitalism.

You claim to have provided evidence for your arguments but all you provided was opinion and you admitted that yourself.

I have presented the benefits of Capitalism over and over. But like a true collectivist you cannot accept the truth.

To defend Capitalism, I have argued from a basis of ethics… that individuals have the right to do as they please, while respecting the same rights in others. I believe I defended the the virtue of self-interest and destroyed the ethics of altruism and sacrifice, which says that individuals are merely fodder for the benefit of others. And even more than this, I upheld the validity of reason, because the ability to reason is where our rights as individuals stem from.

Capitalism is superior because it is the system that embodies freedom. The collective benefits or “common good” of capitalism, are happy by-products of freedom, they are the last and the least important of the reasons why Capitalism is a force for good.

You asked for “evidence”. It was presented. You rejected it. What better evidence to support Capitalism than the FACTUAL HISTORY OF THE PILGRIMS and the INDUSTRIAL REVOLUTION. The latter of which raised the standard of living of its poorest citizens to heights no collectivist system has ever begun to equal, These are facts.

Now before you go any farther on your high horse, refute those facts.

Haven’t got a horse because I’M TOO POOR TO OWN ONE!!!

I do have a nice little silver Renault scenic.

OK Zoltan - I am now going to my study and I WILL BE BACK! :nunchuk:

:blackeye::crutches::stretcher: - capitalism by the time I have finished with it.

 

[epan]

Actually new technology has made many things far more accessible. A minimum wage worker in 2011 had far more purchasing power from one summer’s worth of wages than his counterpart in 1952 could ever dream of.

mjperry.blogspot.com/2011/08/young-americans-luckiest-generation-in.html

While we are on the topic of the minimum wage, 10 out 10 self-checkout kiosks agree that raising the minimum wage is a great idea.Government control of the economy was tried in the Soviet Union.

spoiler alert

It failed miserably.

1952? Let’s try some relevancy, instead of culling meaningless data to support falsity.

Moving into the current century… The Walton (walmart) family owns as much “wealth” as 40 percent of the population of the US. The US and various state governments spend more than 150 BILLION per year to pay for social support for Walmart and other low wage fully employed workers.

I propose that Walmart and its peers should not rely on government subsidy to enrich the Walton family. I imagine that you disagree.

 

[Robert_Sock]

No. The majority of people world wide are not stupid. SOME would disagree.

I’m not a psychologist, but as an economist I will promise you that Capitalism is the best system to achieve LOVE and cooperation.

Well, I think we may agree that LOVE and cooperation will eventually prevail. No economic or political system will succeed without them.

 

[starshiptrooper]

1952? Let’s try some relevancy, instead of culling meaningless data to support falsity.

How is it meaningless that the average minimum wage worker has greater purchasing power now than he did 60 years ago? You were claiming that the lower classes were being subdued by new technology. How are the lower classes subdued by technology when it has clearly improved their lives and enhanced their purchasing power?

Moving into the current century… The Walton (walmart) family owns as much “wealth” as 40 percent of the population of the US. The US and various state governments spend more than 150 BILLION per year to pay for social support for Walmart and other low wage fully employed workers.

I propose that Walmart and its peers should not rely on government subsidy to enrich the Walton family. I imagine that you disagree.

I propose that the employees of Wal-Mart and other places stop robbing me via welfare and increase their value to their employers.

 

[minkymurph]

I propose that the employees of Wal-Mart and other places stop robbing me via welfare and increase their value to their employers.

Are all Wal-Mart employees bad employees?

What are they not doing that they should doing?

Can Wal-Mart not get rid of employees that lack value and replace them with more valuable ones? Or are they just really bad at staff selection and training?

Why do you think the employees are more to blame than the employer?

 

[starshiptrooper]

Are all Wal-Mart employees bad employees?

What are they not doing that they should doing?

Can Wal-Mart not get rid of employees that lack value and replace them with more valuable ones? Or are they just really bad at staff selection and training?

Why do you think the employees are more to blame than the employer?

Unless you go into management or security, any job you get at a Wal-Mart is probably is a job that has a low skill level and therefore deserves a low wage.

I do not see why an employer is to blame for the low wages he pays for a low-skill job. Nobody forced the employees to work for Wal-Mart. It is still a (semi) free-market

.
I am working a fast food place, the reason I make more than the minimum wage is simply a combination of hard work, integrity, responsibility, working as a trainer, and enough acquired experience that my extended absence would be somewhat inconvenient. Bottom line is, if you want more money, make yourself more valuable. Once you are an adult, nobody owes you anything.

 

[nmgauss]

Unless you go into management or security, any job you get at a Wal-Mart is probably is a job that has a low skill level and therefore deserves a low wage.

I do not see why an employer is to blame for the low wages he pays for a low-skill job. Nobody forced the employees to work for Wal-Mart. It is still a (semi) free-market

I am working a fast food place, the reason I make more than the minimum wage is simply a combination of hard work, integrity, responsibility, working as a trainer, and enough acquired experience that my extended absence would be somewhat inconvenient. Bottom line is, if you want more money, make yourself more valuable. Once you are an adult, nobody owes you anything.

My hometown of thirty thousand people has a lot of retail activity concentrated in two large shopping complexes. The one nearest my home has a Wal-Mart, Kohl’s Dept. Store, Penney’s, a supermarket, and a large drug store. On the south end of town is a huge Target store, as well as a large appliance store, and a large hardware store, as well as a large number of smaller stores. My guess is that they all pay similar wages for unskilled workers since they are all retail establishments.
I can’t imagine Wal-Mart paying less for its unskilled workers than these other stores.

 

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

1952?

I propose that Walmart and its peers should not rely on government subsidy to enrich the Walton family. I imagine that you disagree.

I propose that people learn the difference between a government subsidy (that Walmart does not get) and a tax credit or tax break,