Is it ludicrous to think that the world will remain Capitalistic?

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Thanks Sally. I was beginning to think I was the only one who realized this. šŸ‘

The only way I know of to regulate a capitalist system with minimal government interference is through government watchdogs.
A free market doesn’t mean that there isn’t any rules or laws, it means that the government doesn’t interfere in the market, by setting prices and wages, subsidizing certain goods and not others, or by heaping unnecessary regulations on businesses. When the government interferes in the market, what you usually end up with is government supported monopolies. The government sets up the rules of the game so to speak but it doesn’t take part in the game. It should be neutral, not picking winners and losers. Enforcing private property rights and contracts and adjudicating disputes is not government interference, the market is still free. If a business does something criminal then of course they should suffer the consequences, but that has nothing to do with a free market.

Government watchdogs? What makes you think the government is capable of competent oversight? The government has long been in bed with those wall street execs and the firms that they bled. With political incentives, discretion is a joke.
 
So you have no problem with someone selling you a defective product and refusing to refund you the money you spent on it.
How long do you think that company would be in business if it didn’t refund customers who were sold defective products?
 
A free market doesn’t mean that there isn’t any rules or laws, it means that the government doesn’t interfere in the market, by setting prices and wages, subsidizing certain goods and not others, or by heaping unnecessary regulations on businesses. When the government interferes in the market, what you usually end up with is government supported monopolies. The government sets up the rules of the game so to speak but it doesn’t take part in the game. It should be neutral, not picking winners and losers. Enforcing private property rights and contracts and adjudicating disputes is not government interference, the market is still free. If a business does something criminal then of course they should suffer the consequences, but that has nothing to do with a free market.

Government watchdogs? What makes you think the government is capable of competent oversight? The government has long been in bed with those wall street execs and the firms that they bled. With political incentives, discretion is a joke.
I didn’t say I agreed with the theory of government watchdogs. I don’t agree with laissez-faire captialism at all. I threw out this theory to see how others would evaluate it.
 
I didn’t say I agreed with the theory of government watchdogs. I don’t agree with laissez-faire captialism at all. I threw out this theory to see how others would evaluate it.
What do you think laissez-fair capitalism mean? Why don’t you agree with it? What economic system would you replace it with?
 
So you have no problem with someone selling you a defective product and refusing to refund you the money you spent on it.
You raise a key issue - consumer rights.
How would quality control be regulated in a laissez-faire Utopia? By the government perhaps? If not, who? Who would businesses be accountable to? The courts if someone died? May be a bit late. :rolleyes:

You also imply another key issue with laissez-faire capitalism. It is true a bad business will eventually crash and be superseded by the better ones, but I would argue this is not regulation so much as letting the inevitable happen. One area where capitalist theories are lacking in humanitarianism is they don’t address what I will term the ā€˜injury period’ and the fall out of bad capitalism.

The ā€˜injury period’ is the period between the initiation of bad business practices and their inevitable demise. In the UK the banks lent people money they knew they couldn’t pay, charged horrendous fees, encouraged debt so on and so forth. Some of those banks went out of business, but the period in which they were in business they created a lot of misery and hardship for people.The ā€˜fall out’ period is as it says on the tin - the ā€˜fall out’ of bad capitalism. There is further misery and hardship for people, and I have just heard on the radio banks are not doing enough to support businesses.

Am I correct in saying the capitalist argument is the government should do nothing about this? Is this humanitarian? Am I correct in saying the capitalist argument is the poor should rely on soup kitchen charity in these circumstances? I would ask how they would feel if they were in the queue? If they were in the queue would they be thinking saying how terrible it is the wealthy have to pay taxes and wow what a humanitarian society we live in?

I would also like some clarification to what appears to me to be a paradox:

People should not receive government welfare
The government should subsidize people in low paid jobs with food stamps rather than set a minimum wage.
 
What do you think laissez-fair capitalism mean? Why don’t you agree with it? What economic system would you replace it with?
I’ve been debating the reasons I don’t agree with it and what I would replace it with for some time on this thread. Posting it all again would be futile.

I posted what I did to see what those who support laissez-faire capitalism would say in response to government watchdogs.
 
I’ve been debating the reasons I don’t agree with it and what I would replace it with for some time on this thread. Posting it all again would be futile.

I posted what I did to see what those who support laissez-faire capitalism would say in response to government watchdogs.
What is your specific definition of laissez-faire capitalism? Just a couple of sentence?

I would say no to government watchdogs. Who watches the watcher? When political incentives are involved, oversight and discretion are a joke. That’s how you end up with government supported industries and monopolies and crony capitalism.
 
What is your specific definition of laissez-faire capitalism? Just a couple of sentence?

I would say no to government watchdogs. Who watches the watcher? When political incentives are involved, oversight and discretion are a joke. That’s how you end up with government supported industries and monopolies and crony capitalism.
My understanding of laissez-faire capitalism is low tax, no government interference - the market regulates itself, no minimum wage, no welfare.
 
My understanding of laissez-faire capitalism is low tax, no government interference - the market regulates itself, no minimum wage, no welfare.
Welfare has nothing to do with a free market, welfare is just a government social program paid for by taxes.

Profit and loss, supply and demand, no price or wage setting, no government interference except in those cases when it is inefficient or impossible for the market to correct market failures such as extranalities, etc. The problem isn’t really government intervention, the problem is too much intervention or incompetent intervention. Laissez-faire doesn’t mean no government intervention, it means only government should intervene only when necessary and with the proper and right amount.
 
Welfare has nothing to do with a free market, welfare is just a government social program paid for by taxes.

Profit and loss, supply and demand, no price or wage setting, no government interference except in those cases when it is inefficient or impossible for the market to correct market failures such as extranalities, etc. The problem isn’t really government intervention, the problem is too much intervention or incompetent intervention. Laissez-faire doesn’t mean no government intervention, it means only government should intervene only when necessary and with the proper and right amount.
laissez-faire
ˌlɛseɪˈfɛː,French lɛsefɛʀ/Submit
noun
noun: laissez-faire
1.
the policy of leaving things to take their own course, without interfering.
ā€œa laissez-faire attitude to lifeā€
ECONOMICS
abstention by governments from interfering in the workings of the free market.
ā€œlaissez-faire capitalismā€
synonyms: free enterprise, private enterprise, free trade, individualism, non-intervention, free-market capitalism, private ownership, market forces, deregulation; More

I suppose ā€˜without interfering,’ ā€˜abstention’ and ā€˜deregulation’ mean different things to different people.

As I understand it what you are talking about is not pure or radical laissez-faire but welfare capitalism

journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=3105384

udel.edu/htr/American/Texts/laissez.html
 
laissez-faire
ˌlɛseɪˈfɛː,French lɛsefɛʀ/Submit
noun
noun: laissez-faire
1.
the policy of leaving things to take their own course, without interfering.
ā€œa laissez-faire attitude to lifeā€
ECONOMICS
abstention by governments from interfering in the workings of the free market.
ā€œlaissez-faire capitalismā€
synonyms: free enterprise, private enterprise, free trade, individualism, non-intervention, free-market capitalism, private ownership, market forces, deregulation; More

I suppose ā€˜without interfering,’ ā€˜abstention’ and ā€˜deregulation’ mean different things to different people.

As I understand it what you are talking about is not pure or radical laissez-faire but welfare capitalism

journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=3105384

udel.edu/htr/American/Texts/laissez.html
No, I’m not advocating welfare capitalism, I’m for a free market, free enterprise, private property rights, etc. But markets can fail, most commonly in the form of extranalities. In the case of extranalities, sometimes it is very inefficient or impossible for the market to correct itself. This is a case where the government can step in and correct the situation. However, the government should not set prices or wage, let the market do that. They should not subsidize goods and services, and they should not pick winners and losers by bailing out companies. And they should not over regulate and tax businesses and consumers to the point where it actually harms production and consumption. There is a case to be made for the government to intervene to correct a market failure but usually they mess it up by intervening too much. Even Milton Friedman advocated that there is a case for government intervention in the market but it is a very limited case.
 
No, I’m not advocating welfare capitalism, I’m for a free market, free enterprise, private property rights, etc. But markets can fail, most commonly in the form of extranalities. In the case of extranalities, sometimes it is very inefficient or impossible for the market to correct itself. This is a case where the government can step in and correct the situation. However, the government should not set prices or wage, let the market do that. They should not subsidize goods and services, and they should not pick winners and losers by bailing out companies. And they should not over regulate and tax businesses and consumers to the point where it actually harms production and consumption. There is a case to be made for the government to intervene to correct a market failure but usually they mess it up by intervening too much. Even Milton Friedman advocated that there is a case for government intervention in the market but it is a very limited case.
Milton Friedman was against the welfare state. I am for it.

wn.com/the_fallacy_of_welfare_state,_milton_friedman
 
Milton Friedman was against the welfare state. I am for it.

wn.com/the_fallacy_of_welfare_state,_milton_friedman
I don’t believe when I mentioned Milton Friedman I said anything about the welfare state. I said that even he said there is a case for the government intervening in the market.

Yes, Milton was against the welfare state, as am I. But that doesn’t mean he was against helping the poor. Maybe you should do more research on him before you malign him. He was against the current welfare programs we have in the US. He saw them is horribly inefficient and rife with fraud. He didn’t understand why we had so many different programs. He advocated giving the poor cash and letting them decide what to spend it on rather then having a bunch of different programs. It would be more efficient and we wouldn’t need to spend so much money administering it.

He advocated doing away with our current welfare programs and adopting what is called a negative income tax:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_income_tax
In economics, a negative income tax (abbreviated NIT) is a progressive income tax system where people earning below a certain amount receive supplemental pay from the government instead of paying taxes to the government. Such a system has been discussed by economists but never fully implemented. It was developed by British politician Juliet Rhys-Williams in the 1940s[1] and later by United States economist Milton Friedman.[2][3][4]
Negative income taxes can implement a basic income or supplement a guaranteed minimum income system.
In a negative income tax system, people earning a certain income level would owe no taxes; those earning more than that would pay a proportion of their income above that level; and those below that level would receive a payment of a proportion of their shortfall, which is the amount their income falls below that level.
 
You raise a key issue - consumer rights.
How would quality control be regulated in a laissez-faire Utopia? By the government perhaps? If not, who? Who would businesses be accountable to? The courts if someone died? May be a bit late. :rolleyes:

You also imply another key issue with laissez-faire capitalism. It is true a bad business will eventually crash and be superseded by the better ones, but I would argue this is not regulation so much as letting the inevitable happen. One area where capitalist theories are lacking in humanitarianism is they don’t address what I will term the ā€˜injury period’ and the fall out of bad capitalism.

The ā€˜injury period’ is the period between the initiation of bad business practices and their inevitable demise. In the UK the banks lent people money they knew they couldn’t pay, charged horrendous fees, encouraged debt so on and so forth. Some of those banks went out of business, but the period in which they were in business they created a lot of misery and hardship for people.The ā€˜fall out’ period is as it says on the tin - the ā€˜fall out’ of bad capitalism. There is further misery and hardship for people, and I have just heard on the radio banks are not doing enough to support businesses.

Am I correct in saying the capitalist argument is the government should do nothing about this? Is this humanitarian? Am I correct in saying the capitalist argument is the poor should rely on soup kitchen charity in these circumstances? I would ask how they would feel if they were in the queue? If they were in the queue would they be thinking saying how terrible it is the wealthy have to pay taxes and wow what a humanitarian society we live in?

I would also like some clarification to what appears to me to be a paradox:

People should not receive government welfare
The government should subsidize people in low paid jobs with food stamps rather than set a minimum wage.
I think you need to do a lot more research on this. You are assuming things that necessarily aren’t true and making a lot claims without presenting in evidence or facts to back them up.

I just want to point out one thing. Who said that people who are for free markets are against governmental welfare? They have nothing to do with each other. I don’t know why you keep lumping them together. I am for free markets and free enterprise but I am also for helping the poor, sick, disabled, and marginalized. They are not mutually exclusive but you keep claiming they are. I just think the current way we go about helping the poor is wrong. The welfare state makes people dependent on governmental welfare. We shouldn’t be making people dependent on welfare, we should be helping people rise out of poverty. But are current welfare system does not do that. It keeps them trapped in poverty, dependent on government and helpless.

One more thing, I don’t think you know what laissez-faire means. Maybe you should read Adam Smith’s Wealth of Nations and see what he has to say about it and government intervention in the market.
 
I think you need to do a lot more research on this. You are assuming things that necessarily aren’t true and making a lot claims without presenting in evidence or facts to back them up.
I know for a fact you don’t know how much research I have done. I know for a fact I have not assumed anything, nor have I stated anything without providing a source.
I just want to point out one thing. Who said that people who are for free markets are against governmental welfare? They have nothing to do with each other. I don’t know why you keep lumping them together.
Because I don’t share your views.
I am for free markets and free enterprise but I am also for helping the poor, sick, disabled, and marginalized. They are not mutually exclusive but you keep claiming they are.
I did not claim this.
One more thing, I don’t think you know what laissez-faire means.
You are entitled to your opinion.
Maybe you should read Adam Smith’s Wealth of Nations and see what he has to say about it and government intervention in the market.
And what makes you think I have not read this?

I can state one thing with certainty. I know what a free radical is.
 
I think you need to do a lot more research on this. You are assuming things that necessarily aren’t true and making a lot claims without presenting in evidence or facts to back them up.
A lot more research on what? What research have you done on anything other than opinions you agree with? Note: unlike you I do not presume to know what research you have done. I am asking a question.

What assumptions am I making? What assumptions have I made without backing them up with evidence? In my posts to you I stated my position. No more no less. It was not a ā€˜here is the evidence post.’
 
freeRadical;11865871 said:
Wealth of Nations

and see what he has to say about it and government intervention in the market.

Do you understand Irish nationalism? Do you understand consociationalism? Do you understand liberal left? Do you understand democratic socialism or democratic equality? Do you understand luck egalitarianism? Do you understand Rawls theory of justice? I could mention many more things but the point of my argument is, you are not as well read as I am. It is fair to say that is an assumption, but your posts have led me to that conclusion.

That does not make me right and you wrong. What it means is I have a better capacity to put myself in someone else’s position than you do. I base this assumption, and yes I am happy to admit it is an assumption, on the fact you call yourself free radical. You have also implied from your posts I have not read what you think I should. Just because I do not agree with you does not mean I have not read something. I may not have read it, but I also may have read it but just disagree.

Have you read the latest publication on Thatcher? I would guess not, but I would also guess you would be happy to forward an opinion on Thatcher. I could be wrong, and you may have the prudence to say I do not know enough to make an informed decision, but in your mind I guess, and I could be wrong, you have an opinion on Thatcher you think is right.

I may not agree with others, but I argue I do have the capacity to put myself in their shoes irrespective of that. Can you say the same?
 
Did someone say Milton Friedman and welfare…???

Everything Milton Friedman said about welfare is absolutely right.

However, I think** Ben Franklin** summed it up better and a little softer:

ā€œI am for doing good to the poor, but…I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it. I observed…that the more public provisions were made for the poor, the less they provided for themselves, and of course became poorer. And, on the contrary, the less was done for them, the more they did for themselves, and became richer.ā€
 
youtube.com/watch?v=jZw7vNRYmL8

If this link doesn’t work look up a song on Youtube by Christy Moore called Ordinary Man.
Sad song about a factory worker who is out of work because the factory closed down.
Of course he blames the factory owner and society in general for his woes. He is obviously ignorant of the fact that his employment was nothing more than a contractual agreement. He agreed to do work and the factory owner agreed to pay him…nothing more.
One could look at the worker’s current condition and think that maybe if he and his fellow workers put in a little more effort or time, the factory could have survived. Just a thought.
Based on the evidence I would argue laissez-faire was a contributory factor to the Wall St Crash and the current recession. Out of greed the banks lent people money they knew they could not pay, actively encouraged debt by easy credit, charged horrendous unfair fees out of greed and the government had to step in to prevent the economy from going under. Did none of this happen?
The Financial Crisis that began in September of 2008 was totally the fault of government intervention in the market, government regulations, government manipulations of interest rates, plus massive subsidies and regulations in housing, banking, and mortgages.

forbes.com/sites/richardsalsman/2013/09/19/the-financial-crisis-was-a-failure-of-government-not-free-markets/

online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB123414310280561945

c-span.org/video/?c4389999/government-policy-caused-2008-financial-crisis

reason.com/archives/2012/05/17/the-financial-crisis-was-the-result-of-g

Actually the Financial Crisis is the best example of why government should be totally separated from business.
Parasitic capitalism and ā€˜get rich quick’ schemes rapidly increased under laissez-faire. Mind you, most of them have gone now and in the case of some I would say serves them right they were so mean spirited. The good businesses have survived as they did following the Crash of 29.
I have no idea what ā€œparasitic capitalismā€ is.
Capitalism preys on the vulnerable. The UK has become known as the Prozac nation and one of the reasons given is if you don’t have the look, the car, the house, the job you are nobody. People shop to solve their problems instead of talking. People don’t believe in waiting or saving for things. They go into debt because capitalism tells us we must have and now. People are now more superficial because we have to have the false eyelashes, the hair extensions, liposuction on those troublesome areas - people are miserable and the motive is profit.
The UK is not a Capitalist economy.

ā€œPeople shop to solve their problems instead of talkingā€ā€¦that’s very odd behavior, But then again you are talking about the UK, right?

I think people have the false eyelashes, the hair extensions, liposuction on those troublesome areas because they want them. If they did not demand those things…Capitalism would have to find something else to provide.
None of these things are in themselves bad but you cannot say no one exploits the vulnerable for profit in a capitalist system. It may not happen in a Utopian one but we have established that one will never exist.
No one exploits the vulnerable for profit in a capitalist system! There I said it.

Capitalism provides the needs and wants of ALL,… rich, poor and vulnerable for a profit.
Remember you DID agree that profit was not a bad thing.
Are the Rain Forests being destroyed?
Are other natural resources being depleted?
For what motive? Is the motive profit?
Of course the motive is profit. (remember nothing wrong with profit)
If people do not need or want what a rain forest produces,there is no profit.
If people do not need or want what can be produced from natural resources…there is no profit.
Capitalism has to go where there is profit.
Does the government need to pass legislation to protect the environment?
Is that interference?
Legislation that protects the environment from wanton vandalism is OK. But there should be absolutely no environmental regulations that negatively impact an economy or human comfort.
Do you agree with Nozick there should be no regulation on immigration because he should be able to employ people from another country if he wants?

Well, that’s what he said. If people such as Nozick were permitted to employ whom they wanted due to no restrictions on immigration do you not think that at least might lead to higher unemployment?
ā€œPeople such as Nozick…???ā€ He was a philosopher. I don’t think he employed anyone…other than a housekeeper…maybe.

It may add to the unemployment of local citizens but it would surely reduce the unemployment of the immigrant population.

I believe the Catholic Church strongly encourages open immigration so people can enjoy a better life.
 
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