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forest1970
Guest
The old and new testaments say different things about circumcision. If you circumcise your son it is wrong? What if you already have, would God be okay with it?
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JHow
Guest
This seems to be a topic du semain.
I say no it’s not wrong. It was required by Mosaic law. It is not required by Christianity. It was often recommended by doctors as a sanitation measure to prevent infections, and still is by some doctors. The Am. Academy of Pediatrics takes an ambivalent position, since they feel that any benefit is not demonstrated, and they punt the decision to parents and physicians:
“The American Academy of Pediatrics believes that circumcision has potential medical benefits and advantages, as well as risks. The existing scientific evidence is not sufficient to recommend routine circumcision. Therefore, because the procedure is not essential to a child’s current well-being, we recommend that the decision to circumcise is one best made by parents in consultation with their pediatrician, taking into account what is in the best interests of the child, including medical, religious, cultural, and ethnic traditions.”
So, in my mind, the question is whether you think it provides a benefit for your child or not. Either way, you are trying to do what’s best for the child with the information that you have.
From personal experience, circumcision being pretty much de riguer in America when I was born, I don’t think I was harmed in any way by that missing piece of skin. I had this debate with my brother in law once, and he admitted that when he was young, he got infected and the condition and cure was painful and involved “lancing” the tissue to clean out the infection.
I say no it’s not wrong. It was required by Mosaic law. It is not required by Christianity. It was often recommended by doctors as a sanitation measure to prevent infections, and still is by some doctors. The Am. Academy of Pediatrics takes an ambivalent position, since they feel that any benefit is not demonstrated, and they punt the decision to parents and physicians:
“The American Academy of Pediatrics believes that circumcision has potential medical benefits and advantages, as well as risks. The existing scientific evidence is not sufficient to recommend routine circumcision. Therefore, because the procedure is not essential to a child’s current well-being, we recommend that the decision to circumcise is one best made by parents in consultation with their pediatrician, taking into account what is in the best interests of the child, including medical, religious, cultural, and ethnic traditions.”
So, in my mind, the question is whether you think it provides a benefit for your child or not. Either way, you are trying to do what’s best for the child with the information that you have.
From personal experience, circumcision being pretty much de riguer in America when I was born, I don’t think I was harmed in any way by that missing piece of skin. I had this debate with my brother in law once, and he admitted that when he was young, he got infected and the condition and cure was painful and involved “lancing” the tissue to clean out the infection.
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Bookcat
Guest
For medical or good non-religious reasons it can be morally fine. One has to of course weight the medical info and the potential risks with the procedure.
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LemonAndLime
Guest
Yes. It’s no longer required by Christianity, so why would you want to? Health benefits? If its the latter, let your son make the decision when he’s older.
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
It is quite a bit more painful when one is older,with more potential complications, or so I have heard from those who have either experienced it or who have specialized knowledge (doctors and nurses.) (Being a woman, I wouldn’t know for sure!)
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mommamaree
Guest
I wouldn’t go so far as to say it is immoral, because a lot of people tend to believe it is still kind of expected of Christians to do so. The New Testament is clear that Christian men should not be forced to circumcise.
I have wondered about the ethical nature of circumcision, especially when it is performed on infants, and even more especially when it is done without true informed consent. In my mind, I tend to equate infant male circumcision with female genital mutilation (a horrifying “surgery” performed on young girls in many countries in Africa and Asia). In both cases, sensitive parts of the child’s sexual organs are cut off with no medical reason, leaving the child with scars and decreased sexual sensitivity and function. In the U.S., circumcision was so ubiquitous when my husband and I were born, that most of our age peers had it done and had never seen an uncircumcised penis (what would we do without Google?
). When I did the research on circumcision, that was the first time I realized the scars left on my husband by the procedure, and I also realized just how incredibly painful and traumatic it is for infant boys. Consequently, it is one issue where I told my husband the decision we would be making as parents, and would not budge on it. Normally, when he and I disagree, I will aquiesce because I trust his judgement. But on this one, I definitely led the charge to say “No!” to the unkindest cut. He and I are both in agreement now, that the choice we made then to NOT circumcise was definitely the right choice. And I am sure someday our son will wholeheartedly agree. In fact, even mention of the procedure is enough to make my husband fidget with discomfort, since he is far more aware of how it is done and he has had the opportunity to see his baby boy be given the freedom to be just as God made him.
Now, both my mother and mother-in-law have told me that it was very traumatic for them when their sons were circumcised and they probably wouldn’t ever allow it again. I was grateful for their support and understanding, because in the part of the nation where my son was born, circumcision is still the norm, unfortunately.
So, I don’t think it is immoral, but I think it might be unethical, if that makes any sense.
I have wondered about the ethical nature of circumcision, especially when it is performed on infants, and even more especially when it is done without true informed consent. In my mind, I tend to equate infant male circumcision with female genital mutilation (a horrifying “surgery” performed on young girls in many countries in Africa and Asia). In both cases, sensitive parts of the child’s sexual organs are cut off with no medical reason, leaving the child with scars and decreased sexual sensitivity and function. In the U.S., circumcision was so ubiquitous when my husband and I were born, that most of our age peers had it done and had never seen an uncircumcised penis (what would we do without Google?
). When I did the research on circumcision, that was the first time I realized the scars left on my husband by the procedure, and I also realized just how incredibly painful and traumatic it is for infant boys. Consequently, it is one issue where I told my husband the decision we would be making as parents, and would not budge on it. Normally, when he and I disagree, I will aquiesce because I trust his judgement. But on this one, I definitely led the charge to say “No!” to the unkindest cut. He and I are both in agreement now, that the choice we made then to NOT circumcise was definitely the right choice. And I am sure someday our son will wholeheartedly agree. In fact, even mention of the procedure is enough to make my husband fidget with discomfort, since he is far more aware of how it is done and he has had the opportunity to see his baby boy be given the freedom to be just as God made him.Now, both my mother and mother-in-law have told me that it was very traumatic for them when their sons were circumcised and they probably wouldn’t ever allow it again. I was grateful for their support and understanding, because in the part of the nation where my son was born, circumcision is still the norm, unfortunately.
So, I don’t think it is immoral, but I think it might be unethical, if that makes any sense.
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sojo
Guest
It is important to remember that in the Old Testament, circumcision was not a medical operation but a religious ceremony with a real and lasting implication - like a sacrament is to Catholics. The ritual is done by a Rabbi, not a doctor. The whole community (family and close friends) participate. The baby has no anesthesia other than to suck on a cloth dipped in a bit of wine.
What non-Jewish Americans (and some other countries, I imagine) do when they circumcise their boys has no religious implications. It is done by a doctor in a hospital. To by a Christian and do a circumcision because it is in the Old Testament is just foolish. Unless you hire a Rabbi and conduct the entire religious rite, you are NOT following the old law.
Besides, as others have said, the old law has been replaced or completed by the New Law, and we no longer circumcise - we baptize.
While I feel to circumcise without a religious reason is mutilation (sorry, I tried to think of a nicer way to say it, but that is how I feel), I understand that many folks still do this without being morally culpable because they don’t see it as mutilation. I don’t feel babies should have unnecessary operations, or pierced ears or tattoos (yup, some folks actually want to tat their babies).
Thankfully, circumcision is becoming more and more rare among Gentiles in the USA. It is already uncommon in Europe, Australia, etc. Unfortunately, female genital mutilation is still occurring in some places.
It saddens me that humans feel the need to perfect what God already made as “good” in His eyes.
What non-Jewish Americans (and some other countries, I imagine) do when they circumcise their boys has no religious implications. It is done by a doctor in a hospital. To by a Christian and do a circumcision because it is in the Old Testament is just foolish. Unless you hire a Rabbi and conduct the entire religious rite, you are NOT following the old law.
Besides, as others have said, the old law has been replaced or completed by the New Law, and we no longer circumcise - we baptize.
While I feel to circumcise without a religious reason is mutilation (sorry, I tried to think of a nicer way to say it, but that is how I feel), I understand that many folks still do this without being morally culpable because they don’t see it as mutilation. I don’t feel babies should have unnecessary operations, or pierced ears or tattoos (yup, some folks actually want to tat their babies).
Thankfully, circumcision is becoming more and more rare among Gentiles in the USA. It is already uncommon in Europe, Australia, etc. Unfortunately, female genital mutilation is still occurring in some places.
It saddens me that humans feel the need to perfect what God already made as “good” in His eyes.
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4Squarebaby
Guest
There are cultural reasons also. Should we have a son in my wife’s homeland ,the Philippines, a boy will be mercilessly teased if it is not done. And knowing he would have it done I would push for it to be done at child birth, while its been said Filipino mothers don’t want their babies to feel the pain so its usually done around 9 years of age.
On the other hand when it is done for cultural reasons, except for secular Jews, it tends to be done with the boy pushing for the procedure. Consider it a manhood ritual. If you remember the Roots, miniseries a Muslim Kunta Kinte being circumcised was part manhood ritual of Islam and the Mandika tribe he belong to. Without it being done he probably could not take a wife.
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tomarin
Guest
Frankly I just don’t like the way it looks when it’s uncircumcised.
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JPayne
Guest
I see nothing wrong with infant circumcision. My father was, I was, my infant son was
(now 20 months), and our baby due in Jan will be if it is a boy. It’s become more cultural for us in our region.
God himself commanded it to be done at one point. With the coming of the new covenant, not every old practice was bannished. Circumcision could be done or not done. It’s just that it was not mandatory. Not every old practice was automaticly made evil or a trying to perfect what God has made, because of Christ’s coming.
God bless,
Jesse
(now 20 months), and our baby due in Jan will be if it is a boy. It’s become more cultural for us in our region.
God himself commanded it to be done at one point. With the coming of the new covenant, not every old practice was bannished. Circumcision could be done or not done. It’s just that it was not mandatory. Not every old practice was automaticly made evil or a trying to perfect what God has made, because of Christ’s coming.
God bless,
Jesse
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JHow
Guest
I respect your choice mammamaree, but you are exaggerating somewhat.
I have seen it done twice. It is not very painful at all. The child yelped slightly when the clamp was applied. There is some pinching when the clamp is used, but because it inhibits blood flow, it goes numb quickly. The child did not flinch at all when the foreskin was removed with a scalpel. There was almost no bleeding and it healed before the baby’s umbilical cord did. Both babies fussed more over the vitamin K shots than they did over circumcision.
I asked my pediatrician point blank about it beforehand, what he reccommended. I mentioned to him that some people considered it “barbaric”. He was somewhat incensed, and said treating a child with an infection is far more traumatic.
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Aboveallbereal
Guest
The morality of the practice is one issue. The fact that it is an absurd and Pre Christian nonsense in another.
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tafan
Guest
poll is different than the thread title. different answer to different question
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vera_dicere
Guest
Quite frankly, I think its child abuse and should be banned outright. I mean, honestly, if it was little girls being circumcised there’d be an uproar, but its okay with little boys because of some archaic notion of infection control?
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faithfully
Guest
Vaginal birth is DANG painful. Some women rip in ways that prevent sex for a LONG time. I do know people who have had their child’s circ. messed up. one… that went WAY too far, the other requiring a 2nd go. I know this is rare. So when rare happens in my circle, I tend to consider it not rare enough.
It is true that locker room talk used to be abusive. Now, kids are more 50/50 in this practice. And no one seems to notice. Also, my husbands says that the words… “why are you looking at my package” quickly silenced most locker room issues. As it was FAR more concerning to be considered gay. Although I did learn I have to teach MY boys not to question the circumcised boys. My little guy, upon seeing another naked wanted to know what was wrong with it.
I asked my Pedi and OB/GYN… both of which are jewish: There response? Are you Jewish? and need this done for religious reasons? Me: Nope: Both Docs: Then I see no reason for you to do an uncessary surg. on your infants. Unless you feel it must be done.
My friend’s husband nearly passed out while in the room for their twin boys. It was a bit more traumatizing than expected. Another friend said she watched one in the hospital where she had her daughter. She happened to be in a room nursing, for whatever reason a baby was brought in the same room (like a shared nicu) for his circ. A doctor and a nurse. She said the baby screamed so badly and for so long that she decided then and there not to ever have a boy done should she have one. Then she witnessed the Doctor and nurse tell the mother that he was fine, and didn’t even cry… So lieing is a reality with regard to this procedure.
My MIL explained that in her culture, they do NOT do this to boys. Imagine her surprise when she took my DH in for a well baby visit, and was asked to wait in the hall. And was only alerted to the fact that this was done to her child by his screams that caused her to nearly attack the doctors and nurses for their attack on her child. The lack of permission is outrageous to me. Regardless of choice.
It’s kind of odd to me that, in my experience, so n= a handful, the people that are all for circumcision freak out when their daughters want to get their ears pierced. REALLY? Seems an earlobe is a LOT LESS important in the grand scheme of things…
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jawgee
Guest
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4Squarebaby
Guest
Its about 50/50 in America, the culture I was talking about was Filipino specifically along with other South Pacific and African cultures where it is rarely done to infants but boys choose to get it done before puberty. There is even a movie by one of the top comic stars of the nation which the subplot of her widow is unable to afford to get her son circumcised and see tries to put it off until after a daughters debut. In the end the son is rushed to emergency after an infection sets in because of his botched self circumcision.
In that case the primary cause was not religious nor medical as it was for men of my generation but rather cultural
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wanner47
Guest
My son is not circumcised. My husband and I considered it to be an unnecessary cosmetic procedure.
That being said, it is not morally wrong, as long as a Christian is not somehow under the mistaken impression that circumcision is required or will make the child part of the Old/New Covenant.
That being said, it is not morally wrong, as long as a Christian is not somehow under the mistaken impression that circumcision is required or will make the child part of the Old/New Covenant.
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mommamaree
Guest
I am not exaggerating, since I was never a witness to the procedure itself. I am just sharing the anecdotal evidence that was shared with me by my mother and MIL, as well as what I read about the procedure during my months of research while pregnant with my son. And the procedure used to be performed with no anesthesia, so it was probably a lot worse for the baby boys at that point. But I am glad that you were able to explain what you actually witnessed during observing the procedure. Reading the medical lingo for the procedure sounds an awful lot more gruesome than the reality of it, I suppose. But that is true for so many medical procedures.
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mommamaree
Guest
So perhaps I was not misled, and the experiences that were shared with me by my mother and mother-in-law were valid and not some hysterical memory? I really started to wonder when the previous poster told me I was exaggerating (although exaggeration is not possible when one is simply going off of someone else’s story).
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