Is it objectively meaningful and functionally correct to class Same Sex Attraction as a genuine form of human Sexuality?

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John

Some wag emailed me and asked why it is, when homosexuals can’t breed, there are more of 'em than ever before?

Maybe it’s just that there are more of them out of the closet than before? :rolleyes:
Yes, actually the genetic component of SSA (if there is one) would be passed on due to the societal pressure throughout human history (until recently) to stay in the closet and marry those of the opposite sex and have children.

So actually, with gay liberation and the removal of this pressure would technically see a reduction in the incidence of homosexuality, unfortunately though, methods that allow homosexuals to have biological offspring such as IVF, surrogate mothers and sperm donors would tend to negate this
 
Yes, actually the genetic component of SSA (if there is one) would be passed on due to the societal pressure throughout human history (until recently) to stay in the closet and marry those of the opposite sex and have children.

So actually, with gay liberation and the removal of this pressure would technically see a reduction in the incidence of homosexuality, unfortunately though, methods that allow homosexuals to have biological offspring such as IVF, surrogate mothers and sperm donors would tend to negate this
It’s kind of inconvenient to this interpretation, though, that gay children are born to heterosexual parents and heterosexual children to gay parents, at a frequency which negates the hypothesis of a simple, straightforward connection between the sexual orientation of parents and that of their children.
 
The only objective purpose of sex is reproduction.
I think what you mean is that the only readily quantifiable purpose of sex is reproduction. Amongst humans and several other species of social animals, sex serves both as a means of reproduction and a means of social cohesion. The biochemical processes that accompany sexual intimacy facilitate bonding between the parties involved - despite the fact that many people attempt to deny this in our society, usually to their detriment.
Same sex relations cannot achieve this hence they are intrinsically not the same as heterosexual relations.
They can, however, achieve the bonding function of sexual intimacy. Are heterosexual relations that are, for some reason, infertile, also intrinsically different to reproductive sex? Or is it okay because they follow the same format?
 
Right here your agument fails. Christianity didn’t simply ‘inherit’ it. Perhaps you could explain why the even older Code of Hammurabai also contains a very similar sexual moral code? And why is it that a very similar moral code was transmitted into Islam?
Quite possibly Judaism adopted and adapted the Babylonian laws - it’s been suggested by some Biblical historians that much of the Torah was actually written during the period of Babylonian captivity. And, well, Islam simply adopted and adapted Jewish and Christian texts for its own purposes as well.
Could it be that this sexual morality actually transcends religious institutions?
Sure it could be - it could be a product of economic institutions, which predate the established religions with which we are familiar today. Even the Code of Hammurabi is based largely on contractual dealings.
methinks you have been reading way too much radical women’s philosophy, in which the rewriting and reconstruction of history has played a huge role.
You seem very quick to deride interpretations that don’t sit well with yours. There is no doubt that sexual and other social mores in Western and Middle Eastern societies have generally been more onerous and restrictive to women than to men.
And doesn’t that work both ways?
I think you’ll find that there’s rarely any dispute over a woman’s maternal status in relation to the child to which she has given birth. By contrast, the only way a man can have assurance of his paternal status (absent DNA testing, which wasn’t available to ancient civilisations, obviously) is to somehow ensure his exclusive sexual access to the woman in question.
The practice has been admonished in every single civilisation that has sprung up on planet earth. That should tell you something.
That you are quick to find historical correspondence to justify your homophobia, perhaps. Slavery, torture, human sacrifice and infanticide were accepted by most of these societies as well. Does that tell you anything?
Are you saying that an agrarian society is at odds with our human nature? If you are, that’s just way too far left. One of the most basic aspects of human nature is that we get hungry and have to fed ourselves. Agrarian societies are a first requirement.
Of course there’s nothing wrong or against nature in the practice of cultivating food - even some species of ants do this. But an agrarian society is a totally different beast. For most of its existence, the human species has survived as hunter-gatherers. In some parts of the world, such foraging societies still thrive and show no sign of moving towards ‘civilisation’, nor any real desire to do so. Cultivating food is one thing - the notions of ownership, private property and an economy based on scarcity that came with the move to settled agrarian life are quite another thing. These ideas infected human relationships as well as the management of resources - as a consequence, we have moral systems based primarily on economic transactions, over which a thin veneer of ‘natural law’ and ‘spiritual significance’ has been painted.

To get back to the OP’s topic, it’s quite easy to see how homosexual relations have a place in societies geared towards a collective - they help bind the members together in a web of intimate relationships; if the family is seen primarily as an isolated economic unit geared towards facilitating the transmission of private property, homosexuality is merely an inconvenient complication, one that might threaten the ordering of society into discrete, easily-managed little parcels.

Call me a Marxist all you like, but this is as valid an interpretation of the progress of human civilisation as any I’ve come across. The quiet expansion in our time of movements towards collective farming, for example, on the one hand, and polyamorous family arrangements on the other, despite the current blustering about the triumphs of capitalism and the ‘naturalness’ of the nuclear family, would seem to suggest that human nature is not as cut and dried as many moralisers and social commentators would like us to think.
 
After reading the arguments, I can see why Catholic countries like Brazil and Spain are ignoring them.
Could also be that Anglo-Saxon males are traditionally less confident about their own sexuality, whereas if you’re happy in your own skin then the presence of gays just means you have less competition for the ladies. 😃
 
So actually, with gay liberation and the removal of this pressure would technically see a reduction in the incidence of homosexuality, unfortunately though, methods that allow homosexuals to have biological offspring such as IVF, surrogate mothers and sperm donors would tend to negate this
Research provides a final solution to the dread menace of homosexuality, simply by removing the cause instead of having to live with the effects. There’s evidence that one cause of male homosexuality is the same gene which makes some women extra fertile, so all the most fruitful women must be banned from every giving birth to boys. Also all couples must be barred from having more than one boy, since having older brothers increases the chance of being gay.

This doesn’t sound exactly Christian and might be going a bit far just to avoid some folk being consumed by what others do in private, but I guess moral is as moral does.
 
Maybe it’s just that there are more of them out of the closet than before? :rolleyes:
I’m sure nowadays where people don’t get executed, assaulted, tortured or imprisoned for being homosexual, there are just more people who admit it. Michelangelo and DaVinci who lived in the 15/16th Century had to be more careful. Michelangelo worked directly for the Pope. I don’t know if he would have had trouble if they found out that he was gay.

In Ancient Greece homosexual practice was widely spread and in Ancient Rome it was considered natural for men to be attracted to good-looking young men.

If people argue that homosexuality is unnatural because sex is for reproduction then Clerical celibacy is unnatural too because men are born with sexual organs and produce sperm on a natural base. If the use of this sperm is meant to be for reproduction living celibate would mean you’re living against your natural purpose.
 
Michelangelo and DaVinci who lived in the 15/16th Century had to be more careful.
Source objective references which categorically confirm that **Leonardo da Vinci **was an active homosexual. Not your usual guessing-for-an-avocation “sources,” nor wiki-populist-urban-legend, nor inuendoes, nor blogs. Guesses don’t count, even though you seem to conduct your CAF life based on those.
In Ancient Greece homosexual practice was widely spread and in Ancient Rome it was considered natural for men to be attracted to good-looking young men.
It was a social norm for men in ancient Greece and ancient Rome to engage in optional homosexual behavior, regardless of their innate dominant sexuality (attraction). The practice, which was linked to cultural passages and displays of status, does not indicate that there was a higher level of homosexual attraction in these two ancient civilizations than in other civilizations. Please learn your history. It’s embarrassing sometimes to read what you write.
If people argue that homosexuality is unnatural because sex is for reproduction then Clerical celibacy is unnatural too because men are born with sexual organs and produce sperm on a natural base. If the use of this sperm is meant to be for reproduction living celibate would mean you’re living against your natural purpose.
This also shows a lack of information about Roman Catholic theology on sexuality, on reproduction, and on the discipline of celibacy. Please become informed before posting. It would help to do some reading, as opposed to shoot-from-the-hip “guesses.”
 
Source objective references which categorically confirm that **Leonardo da Vinci was an active homosexual. Not your usual guessing-for-an-avocation “sources,” nor wiki-populist-urban-legend, nor inuendoes, nor blogs. ** Guesses don’t count, even though you seem to conduct your CAF life based on those.
Personal insults are all you and some others here are capable of as it seems. Have I insulted you once? Is insulting the Catholic way? Just curious? Another poster here had the need to insult me on various accounts. Sad to say the least.
I already stated that my “guessing” wasn’t in regards to how many priests are gay but you seem to just ignore that. I only ONCE guessed how much of the population **might **have homosexual tendencies and admitted it was a guess.
I’m a professional artist, my father studied art and used to work at the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York, I studied the work and life of Da Vinci and Michelangelo quite intensely so I didn’t just guess these claims and it is a pretty established fact that they were both gay. You can doubt it but there is more proof they were gay than there is that Jesus is the son of God.

What do you know about art and the history of artists? Let me guess…nada(pun intended).
This also shows a lack of information about Roman Catholic theology on sexuality, on reproduction, and on the discipline of celibacy. Please become informed before posting. It would help to do some reading, as opposed to shoot-from-the-hip "guesses."

I purposely argued with the same kind of logic people use to discredit gay people to make a point. They say it is unnatural because sex is only meant for reproduction. With that logic I can say that a person who is born with sexual organs is made to reproduce so the celibacy is a totally unnatural way of living(which is actually true).
 
I just wanted to add that even if Da Vinci and Michelangelo weren’t gay(which they were), what’s your point? Do you want to claim that homosexuality didn’t exist in the 15th century and before that? My point was that it always existed and was always the same except in history people were executed or tortured if it was discovered. I’m glad we don’t live in these inhuman times anymore although I bet in fundamentalist Islamic societies homosexuals still have this destiny. That’s the danger I see when right wing fundamentalist Christians poison society.
It was a social norm for men in ancient Greece and ancient Rome to engage in optional homosexual behavior, regardless of their innate dominant sexuality (attraction). The practice, which was linked to cultural passages and displays of status, does not indicate that there was a higher level of homosexual attraction in these two ancient civilizations than in other civilizations. Please learn your history. It’s embarrassing sometimes to read what you write.
I never claimed that it was higher. It just goes to show that in Ancient Rome and Greece it was not considered as perverted as one guy in this thread claimed. He claimed that in ALL societies EVER homosexuality was considered as a perverted disorder.

Btw, speak for yourself when it comes to embarrassing writing.
 
Personal insults are all you and some others here are capable of as it seems. Have I insulted you once? Is insulting the Catholic way? Just curious? Another poster here had the need to insult me on various accounts. Sad to say the least.
I already stated that my “guessing” wasn’t in regards to how many priests are gay but you seem to just ignore that. I only ONCE guessed how much of the population **might **have homosexual tendencies and admitted it was a guess.
I’m a professional artist, my father studied art and used to work at the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York, I studied the work and life of Da Vinci and Michelangelo quite intensely so I didn’t just guess these claims and it is a pretty established fact that they were both gay. You can doubt it but there is more proof they were gay than there is that Jesus is the son of God.

What do you know about art and the history of artists? Let me guess…nada(pun intended).

I purposely argued with the same kind of logic people use to discredit gay people to make a point. They say it is unnatural because sex is only meant for reproduction. With that logic I can say that a person who is born with sexual organs is made to reproduce so the celibacy is a totally unnatural way of living(which is actually true).
Actuallt Elizabeth did not argue against them being gay, but rather against them being actively gay (that is to say committing homosexual acts).
 
Actuallt Elizabeth did not argue against them being gay, but rather against them being actively gay (that is to say committing homosexual acts).
I guess if they weren’t active then no one would ever know that they were gay, Da Vinci had one lover who is suspected to be the actual model who posed for the Mona Lisa. He was Da Vinci’s apprentice and also did a copy of the Mona Lisa. There is a painting of him painted by Da Vinci where you can see the similarity. Both paintings are in the Louvre, Paris. Theses are speculations but it is pretty clear that the young apprentice was his lover. Da Vinci was even accused of sodomy when he was younger.There are also various people who were said to be the lovers of Michelangelo.
I read most stuff on their homosexuality in various art books about the artists. I didn’t just look it up on Wiki or some internet blog.
 
I guess if they weren’t active then no one would ever know that they were gay, Da Vinci had one lover who is suspected to be the actual model who posed for the Mona Lisa. He was Da Vinci’s apprentice and also did a copy of the Mona Lisa. There is a painting of him painted by Da Vinci where you can see the similarity. Both paintings are in the Louvre, Paris. Theses are speculations but it is pretty clear that the young apprentice was his lover. Da Vinci was even accused of sodomy when he was younger.There are also various people who were said to be the lovers of Michelangelo.
I read most stuff on their homosexuality in various art books about the artists. I didn’t just look it up on Wiki or some internet blog.
I see a lot of cases of people looking back into the past and projecting the modern onto it.
Accusing someone of sodomy was not uncommon political shenanigans thing back then. Leonardo’s behaviour with his alleged “lover” could be explained by him being a doting master. A multitude of rumors do not make a fact.
 
I see a lot of cases of people looking back into the past and projecting the modern onto it.
Accusing someone of sodomy was not uncommon political shenanigans thing back then. Leonardo’s behaviour with his alleged “lover” could be explained by him being a doting master. A multitude of rumors do not make a fact.
Come on guys… it is well established that Leonardo and Michelangelo were gay. The one that is intriguing and not really known with much certainty is Shakespeare. If you believe that the sonnets are autobiographical, then he had a male lover, or was at least in love with a male. But they might not be, in which case, why did he write most of his sonnets to a guy? “… nature when she wrought thee fell a doting…”
 
Come on guys… it is well established that Leonardo and Michelangelo were gay. The one that is intriguing and not really known with much certainty is Shakespeare. If you believe that the sonnets are autobiographical, then he had a male lover, or was at least in love with a male. But they might not be, in which case, why did he write most of his sonnets to a guy? “… nature when she wrought thee fell a doting…”
Yes, it is well established they were gay, it is not so well established that they were banging dudes, the case is shaky at best with Michelangelo. In fact his biographer (who knew Michelangelo) was adamant that Michelangelo was chaste. Michelangelo was also very involved with a woman later in life
 
lui
**
I never claimed that it was higher. It just goes to show that in Ancient Rome and Greece it was not considered as perverted as one guy in this thread claimed. He claimed that in ALL societies EVER homosexuality was considered as a perverted disorder.**

Name the societies in which it was considered natural and then provide your proof.

HOMOSEXUALITY - PLATO

Laws 8.836c-e, in which Plato discusses what laws should regulate sexual conduct. It’s plain that Plato sees a historical decline in morals since the time of Laius.

“Suppose you follow nature’s rule and establish the law that was in force before the time of Laius. You’d argue that one may have sexual intercourse with women but not with men or boys. As evidence for your view, you’d point to the animal world, where (you’d argue) the males do not have sexual relations with each other, because such a thing is unnatural. But in Crete and Sparta your argument would not go down well, and you’d probably persuade nobody. However, another argument is that such practices are incompatible with what in our view should be the constant aim of the legislator - that is, we’re always asking, ‘which of our regulations encourages virtue, and which does not?’ Now then, suppose in the present case we agreed to pass a law that such practices are desirable, or not at all undesirable - what contribution would they make to virtue? Will the spirit of courage spring to life in the soul of the seduced person? Will the soul of the seducer learn habits of self-control? No one is going to be led astray by that sort of argument - quite the contrary. Everyone will censure the weakling who yields to temptation, and condemn his all-too-effeminate partner who plays the role of the woman. So who on earth will pass a law like that? Hardly anyone, at any rate if he knows what a genuine law really is.”

Plato, Laws [636c] “And whether one makes the observation in earnest or in jest, one certainly should not fail to observe that when male unites with female for procreation the pleasure experienced is held to be due to nature, but contrary to nature when male mates with male or female with female, and that those first guilty of such enormities were impelled by their slavery to pleasure.”

Aristotle
Nichomacean Ethics Book 7, Section 5:
“Some things are not naturally pleasant, but can become so through injury, habit or congenital depravity. And for each unnatural pleasure there is an abnormal state of character. There is the brutish character, as in those tribes around the Black Sea who eat human flesh. Also, morbid states, like nail-biting or homosexuality … may have been acquired by habit, for instance if someone has been sexually misused as a child.

Aristophanes ridiculed homosexuals in his plays.

That a practice is commonplace doesn’t mean that it’s natural. The Roman gladiators fought to the death. Being acceptable to the Romans, did that make it natural?

**With that logic I can say that a person who is born with sexual organs is made to reproduce so the celibacy is a totally unnatural way of living(which is actually true). **

There is no consequence of celibacy that condemns it as a choice, especially in light of the fact that spiritual fatherhood is a reasonable alternative to familial fatherhood. The consequences of sodomy may be many, including an early death … which alone is a reason to condemn the practice.
 
Accusing someone of sodomy was not uncommon political shenanigans thing back then. Leonardo’s behaviour with his alleged “lover” could be explained by him being a doting master. A multitude of rumors do not make a fact.
I wouldn’t call the sodomy accusations as evidence but like I said, it is mentioned in several books that his young apprentice who may have modeled for the Mona Lisa was his lover. There are several young models who were supposed to be lovers of Michelangelo: Gherardo Perini, Andrea Quaratesi, Francesco Urbino, Tommaso Cavalieri.

Of course I can’t prove that they were both gay and having gay sex with 100% certainty. Is it really important? I’m sure there were as many gay men in the 15th century as there are today. It is funny though that to prove the artists were active homosexuals I need to whip out a Kim Kardashian type sex tape in HD quality that actually shows them having sex, but for us to believe the resurrection of Jesus and him being God it’s enough to have some shaky evidence like the Gospels.😃
 
Name the societies in which it was considered natural and then provide your proof.
books.google.com/books?id=1ha9GgWNmy0C&pg=PA58&lpg=PA58&dq=homosexuality+in+tribal+societies&source=bl&ots=MKGDlcpVzq&sig=DAIBAl4QvogspM9fYA489h2VvKA&hl=en&ei=8IqTTtj2FMinhAeL-4nPBg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10&ved=0CFkQ6AEwCTgK#v=onepage&q=homosexuality%20in%20tribal%20societies&f=false
There is no consequence of celibacy that condemns it as a choice, especially in light of the fact that spiritual fatherhood is a reasonable alternative to familial fatherhood. The consequences of sodomy may be many, including an early death … which alone is a reason to condemn the practice.
One consequence of celibacy may be the tens of thousands of sexual abuse cases in the last 50 years alone in the US. I don’t want to know how many cases have took place in the whole world over the centuries. The perverted behavior of priests who rape young children might be the result of this unnatural sexless life choice.
 
lui

**The perverted behavior of priests who rape young children might be the result of this unnatural sexless life choice. **

Think about what you just said and don’t try to suppress a giggle.

Sex perverts are sex perverts because they don’t have sex?

What does that make sodomites who give each other AIDS? The good guys?
 
lui

books.google.com/books?id=1ha9GgWNmy0C&pg=PA58&lpg=PA58&dq=homosexuality+in+tribal+societies&source=bl&ots=MKGDlcpVzq&sig=DAIBAl4QvogspM9fYA489h2VvKA&hl=en&ei=8IqTTtj2FMinhAeL-4nPBg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10&ved=0CFkQ6AEwCTgK#v=onepage&q=homosexuality%20in%20tribal%20societies&f=false

The so-called academic source on homosexuality you cited was published by McFarland Publishing, a printer who specializes in horror fiction, science fiction, and sports. So I consider the source and dismiss it without reservation after reading two or three idiotic paragraphs.
 
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