Is it ok to abstain from

[Black_Jaque]

Safe Eagle,

No it is not OK to abstain from voting. It is your duty to vote.

That said, it is OK to vote for none of the candidates listed. Some people vote for Mickey Mouse. I don’t recommend that. Usually you should vote for yourself, or just anyone you think would represent your views.

Here’s the kicker. It doesn’t matter who you vote for (in your situation) it matters only that you voted. The reason is because you need to be on the list of registered voters. Then when you contact your representatives they can, and many will, check to see if your name is registered in their district. The good representatives will toss out letters from those not in their district. After all, why should someone from outside their district have a sway in how the district is represented?

Note that I said, WHEN you contact your representatives. If all you do is vote, then you’re not fulfilling your civic duties. Even a candidate who gets elected while running on a pro-abortion platform can be swayed to vote pro-life if subjected to an effective letter-writing campaign by their constituents. Once in office they want to stay in office, and if that means changing their tune then so be it.

 

[Matt_Collins]

have you forgotten about innocent civilians that have been killed in the war?

As we hear of all the bombings in Iraq and the number of people who are killed, it is hard to escape the fact that the vast majority of those who are killed are innocent Iraqis by evil Iraqis. The war being waged by the “insurgents” is primarily directed against fellow Iraqis, not the U.S. It is clear, too, that if we pull out, then there will be far, far more deaths of innocent Iraqis.

Voting for “anti-war” politicians does nothing to reduce the number of innocent lives that will be lost.

Whether or not we ever should have gone to war against Saddam, we did. That’s water under the bridge, as Ted Kennedy would say. What’s important at this point is that we don’t make matters worse by leaving the millions of innocent Iraqis to the mercy of the insurgents.

If you think pulling out of Iraq will somehow save lives, then you must think that the only lives worth saving are those of American soldiers, and have forgotten about the millions of innocent Iraqis you claim to care so much about.

At the very least, we have a moral obligation to stay and protect those innocent Iraqis. If you were against the war in the first place, then good for you. But you then have to say, at least, “we broke, so we have to fix it.” And pulling out of Iraq will NOT, repeat NOT, fix it!

In the interest of full disclosure… I have a nephew who gave up a career to join the special forces as a medic. He’ll deploy to Iraq later this year. We’re all aware of the dangers, and we support him completely. In my eyes, he’s already a hero.

 

[BlestOne]

How many lives has Bush saved? Really, has he reduced abortions?

And, for the record, the United States supported Saddam until he invaded Kuwait. OMG THE US SUPPORTING EVIL DICTATORS WHO KILL AND TORTURE THEIR OWN PEOPLE? Yeah. That never happens.

Sing,
It is a shame that you seem to have a very large chip on your shoulders.

Bush is trying to save the lives of the unborn… would you rather a president that doesn’t give a hoot? As a matter of fact, I think Bush has done ALOT towards the pro-life movement just by appointing the judges he was able to appoint to the Supreme Court.

As for your other comments; Yes, the UNITED STATES (not Pres Bush) supported IRAQ over IRAN when they were fighting each other. You might want to brush up on your current and not so current events to understand why. Pres GW Bush was not the president when this was started. When Saddam invaded Kuwait, it gave us the opportunity to help innocent people that were invaded by Saddam… And I don’t think anyone can dispute how much we helped Kuwait at the direction of the first President Bush…not his son! I served in the military at the time of this event… I distinctly remember who the president was.

Now, have you forgotten about the innocent people killed in the WTC on September 11th? All I can say is thank God Gore lost that election!!! GW was the right man at the right time! What do you think a democratic president would have done better? Remember, it was Al Gore at the first election… he doesn’t care about people, only the enviornment!

 

[BlestOne]

As we hear of all the bombings in Iraq and the number of people who are killed, it is hard to escape the fact that the vast majority of those who are killed are innocent Iraqis by evil Iraqis. The war being waged by the “insurgents” is primarily directed against fellow Iraqis, not the U.S. It is clear, too, that if we pull out, then there will be far, far more deaths of innocent Iraqis.

Voting for “anti-war” politicians does nothing to reduce the number of innocent lives that will be lost.

Whether or not we ever should have gone to war against Saddam, we did. That’s water under the bridge, as Ted Kennedy would say. What’s important at this point is that we don’t make matters worse by leaving the millions of innocent Iraqis to the mercy of the insurgents.

If you think pulling out of Iraq will somehow save lives, then you must think that the only lives worth saving are those of American soldiers, and have forgotten about the millions of innocent Iraqis you claim to care so much about.

At the very least, we have a moral obligation to stay and protect those innocent Iraqis. If you were against the war in the first place, then good for you. But you then have to say, at least, “we broke, so we have to fix it.” And pulling out of Iraq will NOT, repeat NOT, fix it!

In the interest of full disclosure… I have a nephew who gave up a career to join the special forces as a medic. He’ll deploy to Iraq later this year. We’re all aware of the dangers, and we support him completely. In my eyes, he’s already a hero.

Amen Matt! I will be praying for your nephew. My own brother has been there 4 times and my priest twice now. This war has touched all of us, but Matt is right, pulling out will only cause more innocent lives to be taken from us.

 

[HopeFull_Mom]

How many lives has Bush saved? Really, has he reduced abortions?

And, for the record, the United States supported Saddam until he invaded Kuwait. OMG THE US SUPPORTING EVIL DICTATORS WHO KILL AND TORTURE THEIR OWN PEOPLE? Yeah. That never happens.

Sorry, but didn’t Bush sign the ban on partial birth abortion. Here is a quote on this type of abortion,

“Known as dilation and evacuation (D&E) and dilation and extraction (D&X), the procedures involve a medical practitioner employing forceps to pull the fetus partially out of the birth canal, and then collapsing its head with scissors in order to completely remove it. According to the Guttmacher Institute, a nonprofit sexual and reproductive health research organization, these methods only accounted only 0.17% of all abortions performed in 2000.”

It turns out 0.17% of abortions in 2000 would equal approximately 200,000(that is still twice the number of civilian casualties in Iraq) not performed because of Predident Bush’s signing of the bill.

The National Right to Life site claims that there has in fact been a decrease in abortions during the Bush administration.

nrlc.org/rko/index.html

The President also declared Jan 22, 2006 as
National Sanctity of Human Life Day and in a speech said this,

"America is making great strides in our efforts to protect human life. One of my first actions as President was to sign an order banning the use of taxpayer money on programs that promote abortion overseas. Over the past 5 years, I also have been proud to sign into law the Born-Alive Infants Protection Act, the Unborn Victims of Violence Act, and a ban on partial-birth abortion. In addition, my Administration continues to fund abstinence and adoption programs and numerous faith-based and community initiatives that support these efforts.

When we seek to advance science and improve our lives, we must always preserve human dignity and remember that human life is a gift from our Creator. We must not sanction the creation of life only to destroy it. America must pursue the tremendous possibilities of medicine and research and at the same time remain an ethical and compassionate society.

National Sanctity of Human Life Day is an opportunity to strengthen our resolve in creating a society where every life has meaning and our most vulnerable members are protected and defended including unborn children, the sick and dying, and persons with disabilities and birth defects. This is an ideal that appeals to the noblest and most generous instincts within us, and this is the America we will achieve by working together."

 

[sing]

Sing,
It is a shame that you seem to have a very large chip on your shoulders.

Bush is trying to save the lives of the unborn… would you rather a president that doesn’t give a hoot? As a matter of fact, I think Bush has done ALOT towards the pro-life movement just by appointing the judges he was able to appoint to the Supreme Court.

As for your other comments; Yes, the UNITED STATES (not Pres Bush) supported IRAQ over IRAN when they were fighting each other. You might want to brush up on your current and not so current events to understand why. Pres GW Bush was not the president when this was started. When Saddam invaded Kuwait, it gave us the opportunity to help innocent people that were invaded by Saddam… And I don’t think anyone can dispute how much we helped Kuwait at the direction of the first President Bush…not his son! I served in the military at the time of this event… I distinctly remember who the president was.

Now, have you forgotten about the innocent people killed in the WTC on September 11th? All I can say is thank God Gore lost that election!!! GW was the right man at the right time! What do you think a democratic president would have done better? Remember, it was Al Gore at the first election… he doesn’t care about people, only the enviornment!

The enviroment affects people. My family is unable to live in even a moderate sized city because of polution that aggravates asthma.9 out of the 10 children have been hospitalized regularly for it. So to separate caring about the enviroment and caring about people is to ignore the negative effects mistreating the enviroment has on people. By no means am I focused on the enviroment, but I do care, because it does affect me, and I am offended by people who dismiss efforts to take care of the enviroment.

As for supporting Iraq over Iran, the US government was giving weapons to both sides. I bring up the first president Bush because he was also someone that pro-lifers supported. If Saddamn Hussein was so bad, and America cares so much about helping the Iraqi people, why didn’t we help them during the first Gulf War?

9/11 was horrible. But I will never forget a guest at my graduation party. She and her sister were teenagers from Eastern Europe, and their family had managed to immigrate to America. They had grown up knowing war and political instability and gone through times where the family had been separated, and had thought they would never see each other again. They were living in America at the time of 9/11, and she said how it didn’t seem like a big deal to her. She was used to violence, death, and the effect that war has on civilians. It’s what she had to deal with. Not just one day of attacks, either. It’s how a large part of the world lives. Of course, some of the people at my party were offended, and one man started criticizing her and giving her a history lesson on the country and region she was from.

America hasn’t really had to deal with the effects that war has on civilians since the Civil War, and even the Civil War was mainly fought in the South. Yes, our men and women go off to war, and sometimes die, or come back physically and mentally damaged, and it affects their families, too, but we haven’t experienced the effect that war has on innocent people, people like you and me who are just trying to live their lives the best they know. This makes us detached, and we don’t care as much about what our military actions do to people in other countries. Or even about the fact that just being an American means you are profiting off the poverty and misery (and sometimes deaths) of people in less fortunate situations.

As a conclusion, I don’t think Roe v Wade will ever be overturned. And I don’t think Bush has saved any child from dying.

 

[Benedictus]

Make the vote you cast be the one that is most likely to save the most lives, which means voting against abortion.

Abortion will remain legal, no matter who wins. The people support abortion. Look at the last election. Three states had referenda on abortion issues. All three were defeated.

Voting for anti-war candidates can save lives. I doubt voting for anti-abortion candidates will have any effect on the availability of abortion.

Having said all this, I still have trouble justifying voting for a candidate who supports abortion.

 

[sing]

Sorry, but didn’t Bush sign the ban on partial birth abortion. Here is a quote on this type of abortion,

“Known as dilation and evacuation (D&E) and dilation and extraction (D&X), the procedures involve a medical practitioner employing forceps to pull the fetus partially out of the birth canal, and then collapsing its head with scissors in order to completely remove it. According to the Guttmacher Institute, a nonprofit sexual and reproductive health research organization, these methods only accounted only 0.17% of all abortions performed in 2000.”

It turns out 0.17% of abortions in 2000 would equal approximately 200,000(that is still twice the number of civilian casualties in Iraq) not performed because of Predident Bush’s signing of the bill.

Excuse my inherent distrust of statistics, but do you have any links that would back this up? If it’s true, then it’s good.

The National Right to Life site claims that there has in fact been a decrease in abortions during the Bush administration.

nrlc.org/rko/index.html

The President also declared Jan 22, 2006 as
National Sanctity of Human Life Day and in a speech said this,

"America is making great strides in our efforts to protect human life. One of my first actions as President was to sign an order banning the use of taxpayer money on programs that promote abortion overseas. Over the past 5 years, I also have been proud to sign into law the Born-Alive Infants Protection Act, the Unborn Victims of Violence Act, and a ban on partial-birth abortion. In addition, my Administration continues to fund abstinence and adoption programs and numerous faith-based and community initiatives that support these efforts.

When we seek to advance science and improve our lives, we must always preserve human dignity and remember that human life is a gift from our Creator. We must not sanction the creation of life only to destroy it. America must pursue the tremendous possibilities of medicine and research and at the same time remain an ethical and compassionate society.

National Sanctity of Human Life Day is an opportunity to strengthen our resolve in creating a society where every life has meaning and our most vulnerable members are protected and defended including unborn children, the sick and dying, and persons with disabilities and birth defects. This is an ideal that appeals to the noblest and most generous instincts within us, and this is the America we will achieve by working together."

abstinence programs are not effective, they result in more pregnancies and STDs.

And lets not forget that he did approve funding for some embryonic stem cell research.

 

[sing]

Abortion will remain legal, no matter who wins. The people support abortion. Look at the last election. Three states had referenda on abortion issues. All three were defeated.

Voting for anti-war candidates can save lives. I doubt voting for anti-abortion candidates will have any effect on the availability of abortion.

Having said all this, I still have trouble justifying voting for a candidate who supports abortion.

I’m in the same position. Made more difficult by that fact that most anti-abortion candidates disgust me just as much as the pro-choice ones do.

 

[sing]

Amen Matt! I will be praying for your nephew. My own brother has been there 4 times and my priest twice now. This war has touched all of us, but Matt is right, pulling out will only cause more innocent lives to be taken from us.

I have a cousin who was in for almost 2 years, a guy I grew up with who recently came out of boot camp for the Marines, and one of my fiance’s groomsmen is in Iraq now, for his 2nd or 3rd time. I’m not sure of my cousin’s political beliefs, but my friend thinks Bush and other pro-war politicians are idiots and doesn’t support the war, and my fiance’s groomsman also is against the war and politicians who support it.They are in the military because they didn’t have any other decent financial options.

 

[Em_in_FL]

UGH… I HATE politics…
I mean, I love what I believe in… but there is not one leader that I can even compromise on that has a chance of being president…

I couldn’t vote for Bush in either of his elections (although I’m registered Republican)… I had to vote for a no-name 3rd party.

I was against that war when 90% of Americans (including Democrats) were all for it back in March 2003! I hate that war… it’s horrific!
But I can’t compromise on abortion either… the numbers are so staggering!..
And it’s not even FAIR to compare one tragedy (the war) with another (abortion)… they’re BOTH horrible! Let’s not play “who’s worse” here… these are both horrific tragedies!

The only thing my conscience can handle is to vote for a 3rd party. What good does that do? I don’t know… I’m able to voice my opinion at least!

UGH… I hate politics.

 

[HopeFull_Mom]

Excuse my inherent distrust of statistics, but do you have any links that would back this up? If it’s true, then it’s good.

abstinence programs are not effective, they result in more pregnancies and STDs.

And lets not forget that he did approve funding for some embryonic stem cell research.

The link I provided is to a site that shows data on abortion statistics.

And if you are going to demand proof of my assertations, why not back up your own claims with something. I disagree that abstinence programs are not effective.

 

[He_Man]

I have a cousin who was in for almost 2 years, a guy I grew up with who recently came out of boot camp for the Marines, and one of my fiance’s groomsmen is in Iraq now, for his 2nd or 3rd time. I’m not sure of my cousin’s political beliefs, but my friend thinks Bush and other pro-war politicians are idiots and doesn’t support the war, and my fiance’s groomsman also is against the war and politicians who support it.They are in the military because they didn’t have any other decent financial options.

Anecdotal evidence isn’t really of much use in these discussions. i can name 10/10 people I served with who support this administration. So I guess that means 100% of the military does, right?

I don’t like seeing innocent Iraqis die, but they have been dying for decades, and will continue to do so. They die because terrorists blow them up. Where was your sympathy for them prior to this war???

You cannot equate murdering innocent children to casualties of war; neither in scope, nor in juxtaposition. And the debate is pointless; the Church’s position is quite clear on the relative gravity of these issues. Now you can disagree with them, and that is your right, but theologically, it just means you are wrong.

 

[He_Man]

. I disagree that abstinence programs are not effective.

So does Uganda. This is like the myth that NFP doesn’t work, when, in fact, it does, and better than artificial methods. Abstinence programs do work when done properly.

Granted, they aren’t as “fun” as progams than subconciously give you a license to have sex whenever you want with whomever you want, but then again, vegetables don’t taste as good as candy either.

 

[Matt_Collins]

They are in the military because they didn’t have any other decent financial options.

Are you really John Kerry using a pseudonym?

My nephew had a very successful career. He has a degree from Villanova University, was a high school teacher, and spent several years as an athletic director at a school in Switzerland. He gave all that up to serve his country. Just because the people you know who know people who know people who you think joined because they didn’t have any other decent financial options, and just because you think that they think that Bush is an idiot, that has nothing, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with whether or not we should stay in Iraq.

THINK!!! What will happen if we pull out? Do you really think that Al-Qaeda and Syria and Iran will let the truly innocent Iraqis form a stable and lasting, independent government that has the ability and will to protect its citizens? Do you really think that the millions of innocent Iraqis will have peace?!

Whether we like it or not, whether we should have gone in there or not, we are there. The situation is bad. It is dangerous. Whether or not we caused the situation is irrelevant at this point. We cannot morally leave them to the mercy of people who are trying to kill them. Even if it means thousands of more American soldiers must die to protect them.

It is so easy to say “War is not the answer”, as if our faith, and the complex situations the world involves can be summed up in one nice neat little sentence that everyone can understand. It’s tragic, and no one feels good about it, but unfortunately sometimes war IS the answer.

I hate hearing about all the violence in Iraq just as much as anyone. And I fear that one day it will be my nephew who comes home with a flag over his coffin. But I can’t in good conscience leave all those millions of Iraqis twisting in the wind just so that a few less Americans will die. And if we were not justified in going to war in Iraq, then we are even MORE obligated to fix the problem before we leave.

Whether they realize it or not, those who would have us pull out are espousing a policy that is, essentially, racist. The lives of our brave American soldiers are not the only lives that are important in this war.

 

[Matt_Collins]

It turns out 0.17% of abortions in 2000 would equal approximately 200,000(that is still twice the number of civilian casualties in Iraq) not performed because of Predident Bush’s signing of the bill.

Actually, your math is wrong. 0.17% is less than 1%. 0.17% of abortions in 2000 would be about 2200 abortions, and thus, FAR LESS than the number of civilian casualties in Iraq.

 

[jc-servant]

Make the vote you cast be the one that is most likely to save the most lives, which means voting against abortion.

Unfortunately, that often means voting Republican, despite the fact that they disappoint on many issues.

I’m a member of the GOP but I don’t think it is as simple as voting “against abortion.” What has not been mentioned is how many Republicans support the death penalty which is unevenly applied and has been used against mentally handicapped people right here in my own state. Yuck!

We have the ability to incarcerate people securely until they die of natural causes, so according to the catechism we should not be using the death penalty in the US. When you add death penalty and Iraq to the fact that even with a Republican controlled Congress and executive branch we still have abortion. . . well I think they are a lot of talk about being “pro-life” (whatever that means to them) and not much action.

Even with all of that being said, I still sit down and reason out the best choice that I can make among the less than stellar candidates because I believe it is part of my responsibility as a citizen. I was raised that people who don’t bother to vote should not get to complain later.

 

[HopeFull_Mom]

So does Uganda. This is like the myth that NFP doesn’t work, when, in fact, it does, and better than artificial methods. Abstinence programs do work when done properly.

Granted, they aren’t as “fun” as progams than subconciously give you a license to have sex whenever you want with whomever you want, but then again, vegetables don’t taste as good as candy either.

Exactly !!!

I wonder, though, about the “Fun” in all this having sex with whoever or whenever stuff. I read an article in Macleans in which a feminist said she would be all for the “hooking up”(casual sexual encounters) if it resulted in fullfillment for the girls doing it. She said, however, she was finding the contrary. That now that dating is basically a thing of the past, these girls who are left with “hooking up” instead of real dating are feeling empty, used, lonely ext…

 

[Matt_Collins]

I’m a member of the GOP but I don’t think it is as simple as voting “against abortion.” What has not been mentioned is how many Republicans support the death penalty which is unevenly applied and has been used against mentally handicapped people right here in my own state. Yuck!

We have the ability to incarcerate people securely until they die of natural causes, so according to the catechism we should not be using the death penalty in the US. When you add death penalty and Iraq to the fact that even with a Republican controlled Congress and executive branch we still have abortion. . . well I think they are a lot of talk about being “pro-life” (whatever that means to them) and not much action.

Even with all of that being said, I still sit down and reason out the best choice that I can make among the less than stellar candidates because I believe it is part of my responsibility as a citizen. I was raised that people who don’t bother to vote should not get to complain later.

We don’t have to agree with every single one of a politician’s position to vote for him. We have to pick and choose which are the most important issues and go with that. It is ludicrous to equate the death penalty with abortion, or even with the Iraq war. The numbers are so far apart that it is insulting to every pre-born baby, and every soldier in Iraq, and every innocent citizen in Iraq to put a politician’s position on the death penalty on a par with those two issues, whatever your position on them is. It’s like rearranging the deck chairs on the deck of the Titanic.

 

[HopeFull_Mom]

Actually, your math is wrong. 0.17% is less than 1%. 0.17% of abortions in 2000 would be about 2200 abortions, and thus, FAR LESS than the number of civilian casualties in Iraq.

I’m sorry, you are correct. Not exactly a math wiz Still proof that Bush may have prevented a number of abortions over the past years.

Do you know an accurate estimate of civilian casualties? I find very different numbers everywhere I look.