Is it ok to choose NOT to have children?

[Rau]

How then would you explain an 80 year old couple getting married? You can not… your position in untenable.

There is no intention to ‘avoid’ children in the case of the 80 year olds. They are not capable of conceiving. They know they will take no steps to avoid. Note that sterility is also not an impediment to getting married.

It is up to the couple’s consci[ence] to decide whether or not there are grave reasons why they should not have children. For instance, I know a couple where the wife has an immune system disorder where the wife’s body creates antibodies that attack and kill the baby. They chose not to have children. I defy anyone to present a reasonable argument that saying that this couple’s marriage is invalid.

AFAIK, this is all true, so long as we are talking about a situation and a decision addressed after marriage. If the situation is known prior to marriage, and if it is known to be permanent and uncorrectable and hence the decision to avoid children is permanent (that’s a big conditional…), I’m unclear whether:

a) they ought not proceed to marriage.
b) the situation is akin to sterility - children desired, but effectively not possible, so they may marry.

Should there be reasonable hope of a cure / the medical risks being overcome, and children are being deferred in the reasonable hope of that outcome - it may be in order to marry.

 

[EasterJoy]

There is no intention to ‘avoid’ children in the case of the 80 year olds. They are not capable of conceiving. They know they will take no steps to avoid. Note that sterility is also not an impediment to getting married.

AFAIK, this is all true, so long as we are talking about a situation and a decision addressed after marriage. If the situation is known prior to marriage, and if it is known to be permanent and uncorrectable and hence the decision to avoid children is permanent (that’s a big conditional…), I’m unclear whether:

a) they ought not proceed to marriage.
b) the situation is akin to sterility - children desired, but effectively not possible, so they may marry.

Should there be reasonable hope of a cure / the medical risks being overcome, and children are being deferred in the reasonable hope of that outcome - it may be in order to marry.

To believe that you will never be free of a grave reason to avoid pregnancy is akin to sterility, provided the couple intends to avoid pregnancy by morally permissible means.

Just like the 80 year old couple who marries with the presumption that they cannot conceive, a couple might marry with the presumption that they will not see the day when there is not a grave reason to avoid pregnancy. Provided both are open to a future in which the impediment they believed permanent actually was removed, they are OK. They do not have to avail themselves of medical treatments to amend the situation, but only have to accept the extent of fertility that they were given by God. If their attitude is that they will still refuse to be open to children if the grave reason is removed, that would be a problem.

 

[Rosebud77]

Marriage is about kids thus to marry and to decide from the outset to not have kids is a grave perversion of the institution of marriage.

So older folk past childbearing are by your standards not allowed to marry?

 

[Rosebud77]

i tend to find that those people who claim they don’t want children, especially because they “aren’t good with” or “comfortable” around them say so because they just don’t want to go through all of the pain and sacrifice involved with it, such as waking up four times a night to change or feed them and what else. it really is quite selfish in my opinion…

Actually it is very responsible and of great self awareness and realism. Some folk just would make and do make terrible parents. And adults have lives of their own to live and may well be giving far more to society and the world by the work they remain free to do together if they do not have children.

 

[Et_Cetera]

No kids here, and it’s been a great decision for me. You have to do what’s right for you–otherwise it’s not fair to yourself, the people around you, and any potential kids, you know?

Whenever people are snarky about it, I just figure that they’re probably a little jealous of the free time, money, and/or personal happiness that I have. I’m not saying that parents are unhappy by nature, so don’t pick my post apart for that. Life’s too short to worry about the people who seem to think that they know what’s best for everyone.

You can always do charity work and get involved in the community in various ways (which I hope to do way more in the coming years.) People without kids are not selfish, and that type of rhetoric was tired ages ago. Those kinds of insults only come from judgmental people. Sorry I had to get so “real” with this post, but too many people are pushed around by their friends, family, and the greater community, and it bothers me to watch it.

 

[TK421]

@OP:

Going into a marriage without any openness to children is a grounds for annulment, which would mean you’re not really married. Procreation isn’t the sole function of marriage, but it is infallibly bound to it.

Part of the postmodern difficulty with the rigors of children is in the fact that society (at least Western society) has experienced a rebirth in fatalism, in the sense that we think the key to happiness is to match all of our initial feelings & intuitions with a lifestyle that fits it. We’re setting ourselves up for mediocrity. The problem is: very few people are going to be initially attracted to the idea of children, except maybe 1 or 2 to dump all of their assets into. To me, this smacks as the adult equivalent of a child that never makes the first step of getting into the deep end of the pool. Right now, I am a teacher. I can say with a straight face that I enjoy my job. Go back in time 5 years and you will find a snarky, passive-aggressive, secular, young adult male that spends too much time playing video games, and if you told him that he was going to be a teacher, he would be repulsed by the idea. Nobody performed a personality transplant on me. Human beings are clay, waiting to be molded and bended, either by themselves or others. Ask any Minister of Propaganda.

If a person walks into a gym for the first time and grabs 25lbs bells for biceps, they will be disenfranchised by the burden. 1 year later, they can be juggling them.

 

[Rau]

So older folk past childbearing are by your standards not allowed to marry?

No, because for “old” folks no such intent or decision to reject children occurs. The comment applies to persons of child-bearing years who’s resolve “no children ever for us”.

 

[Rau]

No kids here, and it’s been a great decision for me. You have to do what’s right for you–otherwise it’s not fair to yourself, the people around you, and any potential kids, you know?

Whenever people are snarky about it, I just figure that they’re probably a little jealous of the free time, money, and/or personal happiness that I have. I’m not saying that parents are unhappy by nature, so don’t pick my post apart for that. Life’s too short to worry about the people who seem to think that they know what’s best for everyone.

You can always do charity work and get involved in the community in various ways (which I hope to do way more in the coming years.) People without kids are not selfish, and that type of rhetoric was tired ages ago. Those kinds of insults only come from judgmental people. Sorry I had to get so “real” with this post, but too many people are pushed around by their friends, family, and the greater community, and it bothers me to watch it.

Children are not rquired for the happiness of every couple. My wife and I did not have children for many years and I can say quite objectively that we did not long for them. That’s just a fact. Now of course, it is hard to imagine life without them. Another fact.

Marrying with the intent to assiduously avoid children is inconsistent with the purpose and nature of marriage.

 

[EasterJoy]

Children are not required for the happiness of every couple. My wife and I did not have children for many years and I can say quite objectively that we did not long for them. That’s just a fact. Now of course, it is hard to imagine life without them. Another fact.

Marrying with the intent to assiduously avoid children is inconsistent with the purpose and nature of marriage.

The marriage vows merely ask the couple to state that they are both open to the blessing of children. It doesn’t ask if they like the idea or fear the responsibility or will be crushed if they don’t get any. The questions is whether the couple* is open *to being given one of the essential goods of marriage. They’re being asked whether they are willing to accept everything that comes with marriage, without reservation, without picking and choosing.

That’s all. It’s like saying that you take your spouse for better or worse. You may prefer to avoid life’s extremes, but that is not the question. The question is whether you are going to choose to be faithful, if those things that can come with marriage do come or fail to come, for better and for worse.

 

[Rau]

The marriage vows merely ask the couple to state that they are both open to the blessing of children. It doesn’t ask if they like the idea or fear the responsibility or will be crushed if they don’t get any. The questions is whether the couple* is open *to being given one of the essential goods of marriage. They’re being asked whether they are willing to accept everything that comes with marriage, without reservation, without picking and choosing.

That’s all. It’s like saying that you take your spouse for better or worse. You may prefer to avoid life’s extremes, but that is not the question. The question is whether you are going to choose to be faithful, if those things that can come with marriage do come or fail to come, for better and for worse.

I believe we are consistent, or are you seeing a difference?

 

[EasterJoy]

I believe we are consistent, or are you seeing a difference?

I think we’re on the same page.
(I respond to posts I agree with, too…just forgot one thing: )

 

[12345678]

To believe that you will never be free of a grave reason to avoid pregnancy is akin to sterility, provided the couple intends to avoid pregnancy by morally permissible means.

Just like the 80 year old couple who marries with the presumption that they cannot conceive, a couple might marry with the presumption that they will not see the day when there is not a grave reason to avoid pregnancy. Provided both are open to a future in which the impediment they believed permanent actually was removed, they are OK. They do not have to avail themselves of medical treatments to amend the situation, but only have to accept the extent of fertility that they were given by God. If their attitude is that they will still refuse to be open to children if the grave reason is removed, that would be a problem.

This is not exactly true. If a couple feels they will always need to avoid children, they do need to seek guidance because marriage may not be for them. There is a huge difference between infertility where children are desired but may never biologically happen, but if they were to happen the couple would be overjoyed, and choosing to avoid pregnancy forever in marriage because there is a known condition before marriage where the pregnancy/children themselves would be an issue.

 

[EasterJoy]

This is not exactly true. If a couple feels they will always need to avoid children, they do need to seek guidance because marriage may not be for them. There is a huge difference between infertility where children are desired but may never biologically happen, but if they were to happen the couple would be overjoyed, and choosing to avoid pregnancy forever in marriage because there is a known condition before marriage where the pregnancy/children themselves would be an issue.

What is your source for this stance? I mean, other than the general rule that all Catholics will of course seek pastoral direction and suitable marriage preparation when they seek to marry? Would you say the same thing if a fertile woman or a fertile man were considering marriage to someone who was infertile but not impotent?

 

[ToeInTheWater]

It seems that the answer to this question depends, as does much of Church teaching, not merely on the goal, to “choose not to have children”, but the means by which this goal is achieved.

I recall a contentious topic a while ago in which the hypothetical situation of a man purposefully marrying a woman too old to conceive was discussed. While some posters argued that doing this was somehow illicit and saw it as a “loophole”, it seemed the general consensus was that such a marriage would NOT be invalid, and that a priest would have no grounds on which to refuse to marry the couple.

Note that many people are infertile either due to old age, or due to some congenital or acquired illness. Such people are NOT barred from marrying, nor is there some rule in place that “infertile people are barred from marrying fertile people”. If that was the case, then likely few post-menopausal women could marry any man, even an older one, as men are technically fertile until they die, though their fertility is likely reduced; I have known many “senior” men who had children with younger women, even an 80 year old man who had a child who was only ten years old.

 

[Gwendolen]

One big problem with such a marriage I have seen IRL is that one side of the couple changes his/her mind about wanting kids. The person who wants kids feels cheated the spouse still does not, the spouse who still doesn’t want kids feels cheated their partner promised “no kids” and then changed his/her mind. That alone would give me huge pause. There is just no way to know how one would feel in, say 5, 10, or 15 years.

I know another couple who got married, not wanting kids. Traumatic childhood, etc. They did get pregnant, and being pro-life, had their baby. The uncomfortableness did bleed over as they tried to raise their son. I recall them unsuccessfully trying to potty train their one year old, why, we won’t even go there. So I would not fail to address the issue, and then expect it will miraculously go away if a child appears.

I respectfully submit if you are uncomfortable around kids, and wish to marry, try and change this, before you marry. It’s not all about you, and I say this not even from a Catholic perspective. God, and Life, is not in your control. Why are you uncomfortable? Work on yourself. Don’t ask the question “how can I arrange my life so I am happy, but never have to deal with this?”

Even if you find a partner who never wants kids, and never get pregnant, and both of you are happily child free into your 50’s, children still have a way of sneaking into your life. Nieces, nephew, neighbors, etc. There will be many people in your life who will talk about their kids incessantly, no matter what. Don’t take not liking children as status qua, especially if you want to get married.

 

[EasterJoy]

I respectfully submit if you are uncomfortable around kids…try and change this… It’s not all about you, and I say this not even from a Catholic perspective. God, and Life, is not in your control. Why are you uncomfortable? Work on yourself. Don’t ask the question “how can I arrange my life so I am happy, but never have to deal with this?” …

This would be good advice for anyone. A Christian who sees a wound in himself or herself that he or she feels might handicap the ability to love one’s neighbor cannot safely ignore it. You shouldn’t beat yourself up about the wound, but you should seek to have it healed, so that charity can grow in you towards all of God’s children without that impediment getting in the way.

 

[littlefield]

I respectfully submit if you are uncomfortable around kids, and wish to marry, try and change this, before you marry. It’s not all about you, and I say this not even from a Catholic perspective. God, and Life, is not in your control. Why are you uncomfortable? Work on yourself. Don’t ask the question “how can I arrange my life so I am happy, but never have to deal with this?” .

OP here. I like your approach because it is very pastoral, and hopeful. It tackles the heart of the issue - why are you so fearful of children? Far better for the couple to sort that out and go on to successfully marry and give souls to God, rather than simply being brushed aside as selfish.

“Childfree by choice” couples seem to fall into 2 main camps, from what I’ve read.

1. Everywhere they go they see out-of-control brats, thanks to the failure of modern parenting methods. Children are noisy, rude, violent and demanding. Why would a happy couple bring that unhappiness and chaos into their lives?
2. Children are messy and physically unappealing. Sticky hands, dirty diapers, drool, you name it. There really are some excessively finicky or perhaps even OCD people who physically shudder at the thought. It’s a real hurdle for them.

I have 7 children myself and almost every time we leave a restaurant, a waiter comes up to me and says “I can’t believe how well behaved your children are. You wouldn’t believe the monsters that come in here every single day.” Fifty years ago, children behaving in public would not have been a rarity.

So I know #1 is a biggie for many modern couples who are contemplating marriage.

 

[Gwendolen]

OP here. I like your approach because it is very pastoral, and hopeful. It tackles the heart of the issue - why are you so fearful of children? Far better for the couple to sort that out and go on to successfully marry and give souls to God, rather than simply being brushed aside as selfish.

“Childfree by choice” couples seem to fall into 2 main camps, from what I’ve read.

1. Everywhere they go they see out-of-control brats, thanks to the failure of modern parenting methods. Children are noisy, rude, violent and demanding. Why would a happy couple bring that unhappiness and chaos into their lives?
2. Children are messy and physically unappealing. Sticky hands, dirty diapers, drool, you name it. There really are some excessively finicky or perhaps even OCD people who physically shudder at the thought. It’s a real hurdle for them.

I have 7 children myself and almost every time we leave a restaurant, a waiter comes up to me and says “I can’t believe how well behaved your children are. You wouldn’t believe the monsters that come in here every single day.” Fifty years ago, children behaving in public would not have been a rarity.

So I know #1 is a biggie for many modern couples who are contemplating marriage.

I guess if I was in either situation, I would seek out different parent models, lol. If one wanted tidy, well behaved children, they should visit my sister in law and her kiddos for example, and not mine

The people in my life who have chosen not to have children have different reasons than these you mention… Probably one of the most compelling is “I just want to do something else with my life” not out of selfishness, but because they believe what they are doing is just as important – like college friends who have a ministry helping street prostitutes. Not a child friendly lifestyle, yet they get much out of their marriage, and it obviously sustains both of them. In their late 40’s now, I doubt they will ever have kids.

Another felt like, after been thrust younger sibs to raise, that she had already raised her family, and remains close to nieces nephews, sibs, etc. She is past childbearing now as well. Happily married for decades. Not religious.

Besides what you have read, what are real life reasons from people you know who decided not to have kids? I really don’t know anyone who didn’t want kids for the reasons you mention (although they are in the periphery of the larger reason) and I know several childless by choice couples who have been married a while. Is what you have read your life reality?

 

[littlefield]

Besides what you have read, what are real life reasons from people you know who decided not to have kids? I really don’t know anyone who didn’t want kids for the reasons you mention (although they are in the periphery of the larger reason) and I know several childless by choice couples who have been married a while. Is what you have read your life reality?

First of all, the things I’ve read were real life reasons. Real people writing about their honest opinions and experiences.

Secondly, from people I’ve actually known and talked to the reasons are pretty much number 1 again. “We’re happy just as we are. No thank you to the chaos and confusion that children would introduce into our marriage.”

 

[SonOfMan]

No, because for “old” folks no such intent or decision to reject children occurs. The comment applies to persons of child-bearing years who’s resolve “no children ever for us”.

Infertile “old folks” who go into marriage open to life are only open to it because they know its not going to happen. Strikes me as very insincere. Much like how I promised to give everyone I know 1 million dollars if I ever became a millionaire - its easy to promise that when I know I’ll never be a millionaire.