Is it OK to switch to another Brown Scapulat?

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If a person finds a particular Brown Scapular awkward to wear, in that slides around etc, is it OK to switch to another Brown Scapular that is a bit smaller and has cord rather than ribbon? Or does the per8son have to stick with the Brown Scapular they wore when they were enrolled, until such time as it wears out and has to be replaced?
 
Yes of course it is you will find that if you use a cloth Scapular, you will have to replace it a few times annually anyways.
 
FAQ - Sisters of Carmel website

sistersofcarmel.com/faqs-the-brown-scapular/#what-should-scapular-look-like-be-made-of

** Does the Scapular have to be 100% wool?**

Yes. Cotton, silk, and any other material is strictly forbidden.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

If I need a new Scapular, do I need to be re-invested?

No. If your Scapular has worn out or has broken, you only need to get another one and put it on. The blessing and investiture is still valid for the new Scapular, since the blessing is predominately given to the person who is invested in the Scapular.
 
esieffe said:
FAQ - Sisters of Carmel website

sistersofcarmel.com/faqs-the-brown-scapular/#what-should-scapular-look-like-be-made-of

** Does the Scapular have to be 100% wool?**

Yes. Cotton, silk, and any other material is strictly forbidden.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

If I need a new Scapular, do I need to be re-invested?

No. If your Scapular has worn out or has broken, you only need to get another one and put it on. The blessing and investiture is still valid for the new Scapular, since the blessing is predominately given to the person who is invested in the Scapular.
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Again, let’s remind everyone:

The Sisters of Carmel is a schismatic group, and has nothing to do with the genuine Carmelites of the Ancient Observance and the O.C.D.

The official, authoritative catechesis on the scapular from both branches of the Carmelite family is this:

meditationsfromcarmel.com/content/scapular-catechesis

Generally, therefore, back to the OP’s question:
  1. A scapular is a garment, even if abbreviated. Therefore, it is treated as a garment. This means you can keep multiple scapulars change them, wash them and buy new ones.
  2. The requirement that the scapular be of wool is no longer in force. All that’s required is a dark material (of course, brown would make the most sense). Felt, cotton, blends are all permitted.
  3. Cords vs. ribbons are irrelevant. It is the cloth panels that matter. They don’t even have to have any images on them.
  4. Additional scapulars do not have to be blessed (again, they are garments).
 
porthos11 said:
Again, let’s remind everyone:

The Sisters of Carmel is a schismatic group, and has nothing to do with the genuine Carmelites of the Ancient Observance and the O.C.D.

The official, authoritative catechesis on the scapular from both branches of the Carmelite family is this:

meditationsfromcarmel.com/content/scapular-catechesis

Generally, therefore, back to the OP’s question:
  1. A scapular is a garment, even if abbreviated. Therefore, it is treated as a garment. This means you can keep multiple scapulars change them, wash them and buy new ones.
  2. The requirement that the scapular be of wool is no longer in force. All that’s required is a dark material (of course, brown would make the most sense). Felt, cotton, blends are all permitted.
  3. Cords vs. ribbons are irrelevant. It is the cloth panels that matter. They don’t even have to have any images on them.
  4. Additional scapulars do not have to be blessed (again, they are garments).
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That is correct. I was surprised to learn of the sisters that were not of either Carmelite branch, and who cling to wrong information.

Peace,

Dorothy, Third Order Lay Carmelite, Ancient Observance
 
esieffe said:
FAQ - Sisters of Carmel website

sistersofcarmel.com/faqs-the-brown-scapular/#what-should-scapular-look-like-be-made-of

** Does the Scapular have to be 100% wool?**

Yes. Cotton, silk, and any other material is strictly forbidden.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

If I need a new Scapular, do I need to be re-invested?

No. If your Scapular has worn out or has broken, you only need to get another one and put it on. The blessing and investiture is still valid for the new Scapular, since the blessing is predominately given to the person who is invested in the Scapular.
Click to expand...
This is incorrect. It doesn’t have to be wool.
Does the Brown scapular have to be wool?
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It did at one time, it no longer does. Few Carmelite Religious use pure wool for their habits, including their scapulars, anymore because of the expense and the impracticality.
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Brown Scapular Catechesis
This is the definitive teaching about the Brown Scapular from the Carmelites.

As to the Sisters of Carmel, they are not Carmelites. They are a renegade organization living outside of the Vatican, Bishop of Colorado Springs, and Carmelite approval. Plus their Brown Scapular information is very outdated.

I live in a neighboring Archdiocese. We’ve been praying for the sisters to come back to the family. Also, I’m a Temporary Professed Lay Carmelite.
 
asia53 said:
Brown Scapular Catechesis
This is the definitive teaching about the Brown Scapular from the Carmelites.
.
Click to expand...
There has been controversy over questions regarding the Carmelite Scapular - and it is to be noted that this document that is often suggested in the forums- The Catechesis from North American Prov. (I myself have suggested it in the past) is from 2000 from the Provincials of one area of the World. It contains an interesting discussion and details but it is what it is - not something more than it is.

Since then this came out from Pope St. John Paul II:

w2.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/speeches/2001/march/documents/hf_jp-ii_spe_20010326_ordine-carmelo.html

Where he interestingly celebrates the 750 annv. of the “bestowal” of the Scapular.

A more recent letter (2015) from the Prior General of one of the Orders (O.Carm).

carmeliteinstitute.net/solemnity-of-our-lady-of-mount-carmel-2015/

“A third point is that this year we celebrate the 750th anniversary of the death of St. Simon Stock. Of course it is true that the figure of Simon Stock is enveloped in the shadows of the Middle Ages, and historians have found plenty of material to study and debate. However, according to the tradition, and without getting into any controversy, Simon died in Bordeaux on the 16th of May, 1265. That is why this year we record the 750th anniversary of his death. Simon Stock is tied to the tradition and piety of the Carmelite scapular, and for that reason, it is not out of place to be reminded of this central element of our charism that unites us to Mary, Mother and Sister of all Carmelites. Please God, we, like Simon Stock, may turn to Mary, in our moments of sadness and discouragement, in our trials and disappointments, so that she, first teacher and first disciple of our Lord, may help us to journey as disciples and witnesses of the Good News of the Gospel, especially in our proximity to the poor and needy. The Carmelite scapular, in all its lowliness and simplicity (and perhaps, precisely for that reason) continues to be a reminder of our commitment to the values of the Gospel and is a seed of hope.”
 
Bookcat said:
There has been controversy over questions regarding the Carmelite Scapular - and it is to be noted that this document that is often suggested in the forums- The Catechesis from North American Prov. (I myself have suggested it in the past) is from 2000 from the Provincials of one area of the World. It contains an interesting discussion and details but it is what it is - not something more than it is.

Since then this came out from Pope St. John Paul II:

w2.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/speeches/2001/march/documents/hf_jp-ii_spe_20010326_ordine-carmelo.html

Where he interestingly celebrates the 750 annv. of the “bestowal” of the Scapular.

A more recent letter (2015) from the Prior General of one of the Orders (O.Carm).

carmeliteinstitute.net/solemnity-of-our-lady-of-mount-carmel-2015/

“A third point is that this year we celebrate the 750th anniversary of the death of St. Simon Stock. Of course it is true that the figure of Simon Stock is enveloped in the shadows of the Middle Ages, and historians have found plenty of material to study and debate. However, according to the tradition, and without getting into any controversy, Simon died in Bordeaux on the 16th of May, 1265. That is why this year we record the 750th anniversary of his death. Simon Stock is tied to the tradition and piety of the Carmelite scapular, and for that reason, it is not out of place to be reminded of this central element of our charism that unites us to Mary, Mother and Sister of all Carmelites. Please God, we, like Simon Stock, may turn to Mary, in our moments of sadness and discouragement, in our trials and disappointments, so that she, first teacher and first disciple of our Lord, may help us to journey as disciples and witnesses of the Good News of the Gospel, especially in our proximity to the poor and needy. The Carmelite scapular, in all its lowliness and simplicity (and perhaps, precisely for that reason) continues to be a reminder of our commitment to the values of the Gospel and is a seed of hope.”
Click to expand...
None of your linked documents address the OP’s question or contradict the Carmelite catechesis of the North American province. The OP’s question does not cover St. Simon Stock or the Sabbatine Privilege or anything.

We WILL continue to cite it for as long as people keep citing the schismatic Sisters of Carmel. It is STILL the best authoritative document on the Brown Scapular in the absence of anything else.
 
porthos11 said:
None of your linked documents address the OP’s question or contradict the Carmelite catechesis of the North American province. The OP’s question does not cover St. Simon Stock or the Sabbatine Privilege or anything.

We WILL continue to cite it for as long as people keep citing the schismatic Sisters of Carmel. It is STILL the best authoritative document on the Brown Scapular in the absence of anything else.
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I was not discussing the suggested Sabbatine Privilege.
  1. Yes I know that the OP’s question did not discuss such.
  2. Yes I agree Schismatic groups should not be supported - and people should not be confused as to who are authentic Carmelites (and not…). The point is to simply note that a particular group is not authentic and not a good source.
  3. It is one document from one part of the two Orders - but do not give it authority beyond what it has. As I noted. There is debate about this matter and even the General of one of the Orders noted this.
  4. The fact that Pope St. John Paul II celebrated the 750 “bestowal” of the Scapular - after that local document was issued differs from that local document. And the words of the Prior General in 2015 are important (he was or is - not sure who is now - the head of the O.Carm Order).
 
Bookcat said:
  1. Yes I know that the OP’s question did not discuss such.
  2. Yes I agree Schismatic groups should not be supported - and people should not be confused as to who are authentic Carmelites (and not…). The point is to simply note that a particular group is not authentic and not a good source.
  3. It is one document from one part of the two Orders - but do not give it authority beyond what it has. As I noted. There is debate about this matter and even the General of one of the Orders noted this.
  4. The fact that Pope St. John Paul II celebrated the 750 “bestowal” of the Scapular - after that local document was issued differs from that local document. And the words of the Prior General in 2015 are important (he was or is - not sure who is now - the head of the O.Carm).
Click to expand...
So where does this address this thread in any way?

It’s perfectly fine to celebrate the bestowal of the Scapular as if the vision to St. Simon did happen. But what’s the point of even trying to diminish the Catechesis, especially where the OP’s question is concerned or the wrong comment that wool was still required?

None of what the Pope wrote contradicts the Catechesis, and the Catechesis is perfectly fine at debunking some of the myths that still circulate, such as that “wool is required”.

The Catechesis is a fine document. Cite where the Prior General or the Pope disagrees with the Catechesis.
 
porthos11 said:
So where does this address this thread in any way?

It’s perfectly fine to celebrate the bestowal of the Scapular as if the vision to St. Simon did happen. But what’s the point of even trying to diminish the Catechesis, especially where the OP’s question is concerned or the wrong comment that wool was still required?

None of what the Pope wrote contradicts the Catechesis, and the Catechesis is perfectly fine at debunking some of the myths that still circulate, such as that “wool is required”.

The Catechesis is a fine document. Cite where the Prior General or the Pope disagrees with the Catechesis.
Click to expand...
I noted one should not give that Catehesis more authority than it has. That is not trying to diminish it (but one should recognize what it is and what it also is not).

I have used it myself - and even recently -along with the other documents I noted etc. I was just discussing this with my son the other day.

Not going to go round and round on this though - I outlined my points above.
 
porthos11 said:
So where does this address this thread in any way?

It’s perfectly fine to celebrate the bestowal of the Scapular as if the vision to St. Simon did happen. But what’s the point of even trying to diminish the Catechesis, especially where the OP’s question is concerned or the wrong comment that wool was still required?

None of what the Pope wrote contradicts the Catechesis, and the Catechesis is perfectly fine at debunking some of the myths that still circulate, such as that “wool is required”.

The Catechesis is a fine document. Cite where the Prior General or the Pope disagrees with the Catechesis.
Click to expand...
The catechesis is indeed a fine document and it would be absolutely wrong for it to be diminished in any way. Those points need to be authoritatively underscored.

Both Father Anthony Morello, OCD, and the late Father Patrick McMahon, OCarm, served the Priors General of their respective Carmelite Observances as members of their respective general curias in Rome for years, which is how they came to be the ones to co-author this catechesis.
 
Brendan_64 said:
If a person finds a particular Brown Scapular awkward to wear, in that slides around etc, is it OK to switch to another Brown Scapular that is a bit smaller and has cord rather than ribbon? Or does the per8son have to stick with the Brown Scapular they wore when they were enrolled, until such time as it wears out and has to be replaced?
Click to expand...
In Religious life, one does not have only one habit.

It is important to remember that the scapular is simply a miniature version of the habit. One can have several that one chooses from, according to the activities of the day and what is convenient.

The provisions governing the habit govern the scapular as regards vestition and the issue of blessing.
 
porthos11 said:
So where does this address this thread in any way?
Click to expand...
The OP called it the “definitive” teaching…
asia53 said:
This is the definitive teaching about the Brown Scapular from the Carmelites.
.
Click to expand...
To which I responded with my post (and noted that my use of the document too …along with others).

Again to note - I am not saying it is not a valid document of the two Provinces of the USA of the two Orders- that was not my point or that one should say reject it or something as spurious.

What is to be avoided is treating it as if it has more authority than it has or that other opinions in the two respective Orders are not valid or that there is are not legit debates on some of the matters discussed.

A more recent letter (2015) from the Prior General of one of the Orders (O.Carm) nicely points out both the controversies as well as the tradition and adds some lovely words to mediate on.

carmeliteinstitute.net/solem…t-carmel-2015/

“A third point is that this year we celebrate the 750th anniversary of the death of St. Simon Stock. Of course it is true that the figure of Simon Stock is enveloped in the shadows of the Middle Ages, and historians have found plenty of material to study and debate. However, according to the tradition, and without getting into any controversy, Simon died in Bordeaux on the 16th of May, 1265. That is why this year we record the 750th anniversary of his death. Simon Stock is tied to the tradition and piety of the Carmelite scapular, and for that reason, it is not out of place to be reminded of this central element of our charism that unites us to Mary, Mother and Sister of all Carmelites. Please God, we, like Simon Stock, may turn to Mary, in our moments of sadness and discouragement, in our trials and disappointments, so that she, first teacher and first disciple of our Lord, may help us to journey as disciples and witnesses of the Good News of the Gospel, especially in our proximity to the poor and needy. The Carmelite scapular, in all its lowliness and simplicity (and perhaps, precisely for that reason) continues to be a reminder of our commitment to the values of the Gospel and is a seed of hope.”
 
Also of interest is the Doctrinal Section of the “Rite of Blessing of and Enrollment in the Scapular of the Blessed Virgin Mary of Mount Carmel” as issued and confirmed by the Congregation for Divine Worship and for the Discipline of the Sacraments, November 29, 1996.
 
asia53 said:
I’m sorry, Bookcat. I seem to be missing your point. :confused:
Click to expand...
No point there but to provide more from the Church on the Brown Scapular.
asia53 said:
As far as I know, the catechesis, we are citing, is accepted by all Carmelites worldwide.
Click to expand...
As to that Catechsis you are citing - (and I too have used -and still do - even recently)- it reads as more of a local document - it is not a document issued by Generals.

My point was what is to be avoided is treating it as if it has more authority than it has or that other opinions in the two respective Orders are not valid or that there is are not legit debates on some of the matters discussed. It is not like a Catechism issued with the authority of the Generals of the two Orders.

Perhaps it has been raised to more authority? If so then it would have whatever authority that is.

A debate though that is brought up in it - continues on.

A more recent letter (2015) from the Prior General of one of the Orders (O.Carm) nicely points out both the controversies as well as the tradition and adds some lovely words to mediate on.

carmeliteinstitute.net/solem…t-carmel-2015/

“A third point is that this year we celebrate the 750th anniversary of the death of St. Simon Stock. Of course it is true that the figure of Simon Stock is enveloped in the shadows of the Middle Ages, and historians have found plenty of material to study and debate. However, according to the tradition, and without getting into any controversy, Simon died in Bordeaux on the 16th of May, 1265. That is why this year we record the 750th anniversary of his death. Simon Stock is tied to the tradition and piety of the Carmelite scapular, and for that reason, it is not out of place to be reminded of this central element of our charism that unites us to Mary, Mother and Sister of all Carmelites. Please God, we, like Simon Stock, may turn to Mary, in our moments of sadness and discouragement, in our trials and disappointments, so that she, first teacher and first disciple of our Lord, may help us to journey as disciples and witnesses of the Good News of the Gospel, especially in our proximity to the poor and needy. The Carmelite scapular, in all its lowliness and simplicity (and perhaps, precisely for that reason) continues to be a reminder of our commitment to the values of the Gospel and is a seed of hope.”
 
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