Is it ok to tell someone when they are in error in the moral life?

[Louman127]

Hey all. Due to recent discussions a hypothetical question popped in my head.

Lets say I have a friend who is Catholic. He knows the faith through and through. He is married and his wife knows the faith through and through as well. They both knew the faith through and through prior to getting married and accepted all its teachings.

Now lets say one day the husband of the marriage decided to gain a girlfriend as well. Based on our faith he would be commiting adultery.

Now am I obligated to say SOMETHING to him? Am I obligated to say NOTHING to him because God alone judges therefore I should keep my mouth shut? Or am I obligated TO DO NOTHING at all whatsoever?

Should I tell him that I don’t know his situation so I can’t say something like “Your going to hell for this!” But objectively speaking in the objective order his actions are errored?

This is hypothetical and not involving any living human being. This is an objective neutral question. Your thoughts and any applicable Doctrine/Dogma would be HIGHLY appreciated.

Thanks

Louman127

 

[Confiteor_Deo]

Considering that silence is considered being an accessory to the sins of others, and admonishing sinners is a spiritual work of mercy, it would be advisable to tell him that he is committing adultery which is a mortal sin considering he is supposedly a devout Catholic. However, this isn’t an absolute. If there is little hope that they will listen to you and actually amend their lives, then there is no obligation on our part to admonish them since it would be futile and may even send them deeper into sin. We should just pray in that case.

We cannot judge the state of people’s souls, so we cannot say for sure if they are going to Hell or even if they are truly committing a sin. Nevertheless, we still see the danger & chance that they are committing sin and heading to Hell, so we must try to save them lest we become culpable for their damnation.

 

[Louman127]

Considering that silence is considered being an accessory to the sins of others, and admonishing sinners is a spiritual work of mercy, it would be advisable to tell him that he is committing adultery which is a mortal sin considering he is supposedly a devout Catholic. However, this isn’t an absolute. If there is little hope that they will listen to you and actually amend their lives, then there is no obligation on our part to admonish them since it would be futile and may even send them deeper into sin. We should just pray in that case.

We cannot judge the state of people’s souls, so we cannot say for sure if they are going to Hell or even if they are truly committing a sin. Nevertheless, we still see the danger & chance that they are committing sin and heading to Hell, so we must try to save them lest we become culpable for their damnation.

Awesome! My thinking exactly. Thank you very much. I wanted to make sure my mode of thinking was accurate due to other discussions not sitting well with some people.

Sometimes when doing this merciful work of admonishing sinners we need to analyze whether or not something is objectively a sin in order to warn someone of their errored activity out love for them. Sometimes things are not as clear cut and obvious as adultery.

Thanks and God bless you

 

[maryjk]

Should I tell him that I don’t know his situation so I can’t say something like “You’re going to hell for this!” But objectively speaking in the objective order his actions are in error?

Start telling people that and you might end up with a fat lip.

But let us know how it works out for you.

 

[Joe_5859]

I recommend the old Catholic Encyclopedia’s entry on fraternal correction:

newadvent.org/cathen/04394a.htm

It more or less gives a longer explanation of what Confiteor Deo said.

With it being a friend to whom the Catholic faith is important, his likelihood of actually heeding your warning would probably be higher than if he were a random stranger who doesn’t care about the Catholic faith at all. But, there are still different ways to go about it. Pointing your finger at him and yelling, “Repent, Adulterer!” is not the only way to go about it. Sitting him down and having an honest conversation about what the heck he is thinking would probably be more effective.

 

[marymary1975]

I wouldn’t say to anyone that you are going to hell. That is not appropriate at all and that to me is the actual instance of judging that we are forbidden to do. But if I have a friend who is close enough to me that I know.is.commuting.adultery I would definitely tell that friend that I think.that what you are doing is wrong, and that I disapprove of it for x,y and z reasons.if that person insists on the wrong behavior after being warned I personally would distance myself.from.that person. It would be good to mention that I have done this in the past with a couple of.people.

 

[Indigo_Cardinal]

I can relate to this, as I’ve got a friend who’s either thinking about (or possibly was/is) cheating on her husband. She and her husband have a troubled marriage, and an old boyfriend came into the picture. We had long sympathetic talks about the situation where she revealed a lot about the state of her marriage, so I could see why she was tempted to have somebody on the side.

In those talks, though, she also did a lot of talking about the boyfriend, which gave me the chance to point out that for all the boyfriend’s insistence that my friend is the ‘love of his life’…he apparently only ever cropped up and started spouting this when she wasn’t really ‘available’. He wouldn’t commit to her when they were dating, she met and married somebody else, then he wanted her. She divorced her first husband–reasons unrelated to the boyfriend–and the boyfriend completely dropped off the radar. She remarried, and boyfriend popped up again, wailing about how he’s only ever loved her. It also came out that he doesn’t like kids, and she has three. So we had a long, sympathetic talk about how she seems to constantly choose men who are always emotionally distant from her, and that maybe instead of looking for another man to fill that void, perhaps counseling to help her change/break her pattern. (I don’t know if she actually decided to not have the affair, but she was at least listening.)

And a lot of it was she felt that somebody was willing to listen to her, and her side, and not start off condemning her.

Something similar might be the best approach with the OP’s friend. Something might be very wrong in his life, and for some reason, instead of turning to his wife, he’s trying to fill the void elsewhere. People tend to respond better to suggestion when they feel they’re understood, rather than being lectured to.

 

[porthos11]

Hey all. Due to recent discussions a hypothetical question popped in my head.

Lets say I have a **friend **who is Catholic. He knows the faith through and through. He is married and his wife knows the faith through and through as well. They both knew the faith through and through prior to getting married and accepted all its teachings.

Now lets say one day the husband of the marriage decided to gain a girlfriend as well. Based on our faith he would be commiting adultery.

Now am I obligated to say SOMETHING to him? Am I obligated to say NOTHING to him because God alone judges therefore I should keep my mouth shut? Or am I obligated TO DO NOTHING at all whatsoever?

Should I tell him that I don’t know his situation so I can’t say something like “Your going to hell for this!” But objectively speaking in the objective order his actions are errored?

This is hypothetical and not involving any living human being. This is an objective neutral question. Your thoughts and any applicable Doctrine/Dogma would be HIGHLY appreciated.

Thanks

Louman127

Keyword you mentioned.

Friend.

That means you (or the hypothetical you) have a sufficiently close relationship that he could listen to you. The obligation to speak up is therefore more binding, and you likely have the moral obligation to correct him.

This is not the time for technicalities (e.g. we don’t know the state of the soul, full knowledge, full consent, etc.; that’s all irrelevant at this stage). All that matters is the objective grave nature of the sin. You can easily and correctly tell him “What you are planning to do is a mortal sin.” This is the only thing we can judge when correcting, but you must correct.

 

[porthos11]

Also, about the “going to hell” part. That normally never works, and only serves to infuriate the person being corrected. This makes the exercise counterproductive.

Softer, but still forceful phrases can be “that’s gravely sinful” and “you’re endangering your soul.”

 

[Louman127]

These are all fantastic responses. It appears we are all on the same page. Another way to be sure the Holy Spirit is at work. One can call a spade a spade (a sin a sin) while still remaining objective and neutral and non judging. I was accused by a moderator in another thread that I was passing judgement on someone’s soul when in fact I was not. I was objectively looking at the actions the questioner provided and gave an analysis of the situation. The Holy Spirit provided me with the knowledge that I would be attacked for it so I also articulated that in the post as well.

I used the analogy of adultery because everyone can see that type of behavior as sinful clear as day. Some situations though are not as clear and need further analyzation.

If the Holy Spirit has something to say I will not be an obstacle or a blockage. And the Holy Spirit will not be intimidated EVER.

Only God knows if someone is in mortal sin and we all know that as a fact. However, our faith has provided us with significant knowledge to know objectively between what is right and what is wrong. People ask questions seeking this type of clarity. And if one member of the Body of Christ has that clarity he or she should share it with the rest of the Body.

 

[Bookcat]

"“Being concerned for each other” also entails being concerned for their spiritual well-being. Here I would like to mention an aspect of the Christian life, which I believe has been quite forgotten:* fraternal correction *in view of eternal salvation. Today, in general, we are very sensitive to the idea of charity and caring about the physical and material well-being of others, but almost completely silent about our spiritual responsibility towards our brothers and sisters. This was not the case in the early Church or in those communities that are truly mature in faith, those which are concerned not only for the physical health of their brothers and sisters, but also for their spiritual health and ultimate destiny. The Scriptures tell us: “Rebuke the wise and he will love you for it. Be open with the wise, he grows wiser still, teach the upright, he will gain yet more” (Prov 9:8ff). Christ himself commands us to admonish a brother who is committing a sin (cf. Mt 18:15). The verb used to express fraternal correction - elenchein – is the same used to indicate the prophetic mission of Christians to speak out against a generation indulging in evil (cf. Eph 5:11). The Church’s tradition has included “admonishing sinners” among the spiritual works of mercy. It is important to recover this dimension of Christian charity. We must not remain silent before evil. I am thinking of all those Christians who, out of human regard or purely personal convenience, adapt to the prevailing mentality, rather than warning their brothers and sisters against ways of thinking and acting that are contrary to the truth and that do not follow the path of goodness. Christian admonishment, for its part, is never motivated by a spirit of accusation or recrimination. It is always moved by love and mercy, and springs from genuine concern for the good of the other. As the Apostle Paul says: “If one of you is caught doing something wrong, those of you who are spiritual should set that person right in a spirit of gentleness; and watch yourselves that you are not put to the test in the same way” (Gal 6:1). In a world pervaded by individualism, it is essential to rediscover the importance of fraternal correction, so that together we may journey towards holiness. Scripture tells us that even “the upright falls seven times” (Prov 24:16); all of us are weak and imperfect (cf. 1 Jn 1:8). It is a great service, then, to help others and allow them to help us, so that we can be open to the whole truth about ourselves, improve our lives and walk more uprightly in the Lord’s ways. There will always be a need for a gaze which loves and admonishes, which knows and understands, which discerns and forgives (cf. Lk 22:61), as God has done and continues to do with each of us. "

~Pope Benedict XVI

One can read the whole here:

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/messages/lent/documents/hf_ben-xvi_mes_20111103_lent-2012_en.html

 

[jinglebelle]

Start telling people that and you might end up with a fat lip.

But let us know how it works out for you.

So liking this

 

[Louman127]

"“Being concerned for each other” also entails being concerned for their spiritual well-being. Here I would like to mention an aspect of the Christian life, which I believe has been quite forgotten:* fraternal correction *in view of eternal salvation. Today, in general, we are very sensitive to the idea of charity and caring about the physical and material well-being of others, but almost completely silent about our spiritual responsibility towards our brothers and sisters. This was not the case in the early Church or in those communities that are truly mature in faith, those which are concerned not only for the physical health of their brothers and sisters, but also for their spiritual health and ultimate destiny. The Scriptures tell us: “Rebuke the wise and he will love you for it. Be open with the wise, he grows wiser still, teach the upright, he will gain yet more” (Prov 9:8ff). Christ himself commands us to admonish a brother who is committing a sin (cf. Mt 18:15). The verb used to express fraternal correction - elenchein – is the same used to indicate the prophetic mission of Christians to speak out against a generation indulging in evil (cf. Eph 5:11). The Church’s tradition has included “admonishing sinners” among the spiritual works of mercy. It is important to recover this dimension of Christian charity. We must not remain silent before evil. I am thinking of all those Christians who, out of human regard or purely personal convenience, adapt to the prevailing mentality, rather than warning their brothers and sisters against ways of thinking and acting that are contrary to the truth and that do not follow the path of goodness. Christian admonishment, for its part, is never motivated by a spirit of accusation or recrimination. It is always moved by love and mercy, and springs from genuine concern for the good of the other. As the Apostle Paul says: “If one of you is caught doing something wrong, those of you who are spiritual should set that person right in a spirit of gentleness; and watch yourselves that you are not put to the test in the same way” (Gal 6:1). In a world pervaded by individualism, it is essential to rediscover the importance of fraternal correction, so that together we may journey towards holiness. Scripture tells us that even “the upright falls seven times” (Prov 24:16); all of us are weak and imperfect (cf. 1 Jn 1:8). It is a great service, then, to help others and allow them to help us, so that we can be open to the whole truth about ourselves, improve our lives and walk more uprightly in the Lord’s ways. There will always be a need for a gaze which loves and admonishes, which knows and understands, which discerns and forgives (cf. Lk 22:61), as God has done and continues to do with each of us. "

~Pope Benedict XVI

One can read the whole here:

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/messages/lent/documents/hf_ben-xvi_mes_20111103_lent-2012_en.html

This is amazing and exactly how I think. Wow I’m speechless. I’m clicking on that link. Thank you very much for sharing this.

 

[Louman127]

Thank you all very much. Words cannot express my gratitude. A special thank you to Confiteor Deo, Joe 5859, Marymary1975, Indigo Cardinal, Porthos11, and Bookcat.

Maryjk that was funny I liked that very much. LOL!

 

[SAVINGRACE]

"“Being concerned for each other” also entails being concerned for their spiritual well-being. Here I would like to mention an aspect of the Christian life, which I believe has been quite forgotten:* fraternal correction *in view of eternal salvation. Today, in general, we are very sensitive to the idea of charity and caring about the physical and material well-being of others, but almost completely silent about our spiritual responsibility towards our brothers and sisters. This was not the case in the early Church or in those communities that are truly mature in faith, those which are concerned not only for the physical health of their brothers and sisters, but also for their spiritual health and ultimate destiny. The Scriptures tell us: “Rebuke the wise and he will love you for it. Be open with the wise, he grows wiser still, teach the upright, he will gain yet more” (Prov 9:8ff). Christ himself commands us to admonish a brother who is committing a sin (cf. Mt 18:15). The verb used to express fraternal correction - elenchein – is the same used to indicate the prophetic mission of Christians to speak out against a generation indulging in evil (cf. Eph 5:11). The Church’s tradition has included “admonishing sinners” among the spiritual works of mercy. It is important to recover this dimension of Christian charity. We must not remain silent before evil. I am thinking of all those Christians who, out of human regard or purely personal convenience, adapt to the prevailing mentality, rather than warning their brothers and sisters against ways of thinking and acting that are contrary to the truth and that do not follow the path of goodness. "

~Pope Benedict XVI

This is great. ^^

I have to answer for my actions or lack of action when Our Lord returns. Did I care for my brothers and sisters in Christ?

When I hear racist or bigoted comments from anyone, whether I know them or not, I have stepped in and said “mate that was uncalled for. Unnecessary and hateful”. They change their tune when you call them on it.

If someone was drowning I would jump in, I’m a good swimmer and I’m not going to watch someone die. So why aren’t we jumping in when we are talking peoples “mortal souls” and the difference between eternity in Hell or Heaven. Have we gone soft or are we spiritual cowards? Some people laugh along or ignore the racist/bigot. Some cross the street when they see someone being mugged. Others run to help the person being mugged.

I would feel comfortable talking directly to someone I know personally. For example if a friends husband was cheating I would have no qualms with having a private conversation with him. In a calm tone "I know you have a girlfriend, I just want to remind you that this behaviour is detrimental to your spiritual welfare. Please also consider the spiritual, emotional and mental welfare of your family."

If he told me to mind my own business I would be okay with that, at least I told him and planted the seed in his mind. Instead of saying nothing and he thinking it was okay because a lot of people know but they are not dobbing him in.

I would not say “tell your wife or I will”. I would leave it up to him.

If it was someone I know from church but have no personal contact or friendship with then I would speak ask a Deacon/Priest for advice and maybe sit with us when we have the conversation.

What the cheater doesn’t realise is that his sin has affected not only him and his family it has also affected my mental, emotional and spiritual welfare as well as I wrestle with what to do with that information. Not to mention the welfare of the woman he is cheating with.

When we sin, we don’t sin in a vacuum, it affects the entire Body of Christ.

 

[AttendeDomine]

Start telling people that and you might end up with a fat lip.

This is such a big problem today, IMO: people are afraid to tell the truth because they’ve been intimidated, and they will feel perfectly normal permitting someone to persist in error so long as they don’t need to put aside human respect.

 

[maryjk]

This is such a big problem today, IMO: people are afraid to tell the truth because they’ve been intimidated, and they will feel perfectly normal permitting someone to persist in error so long as they don’t need to put aside human respect.

Do you really believe that in the past it was okay to say to someone, “you’re going to Hell.”

It wasn’t okay before, it isn’t okay now.

Fraternal correction doesn’t mean walking around telling people that they are condemned to Hell.

 

[SAVINGRACE]

This is such a big problem today, IMO: people are afraid to tell the truth because they’ve been intimidated, and they will feel perfectly normal permitting someone to persist in error so long as they don’t need to put aside human respect.

I have been corrected on one occasion from another parishioner and I did not give him a fat lip because he was over 70yo and so sweet in the way he did it that I got the message but left with that same feeling when your Dad has corrected you and you know he is doing it because he cares about you.

We are called to correct one another from a place of love. It will only get me a fat lip or cold treatment if the delivery is all wrong. It’s a learned skill, Priests are blessed with it, whether they learn it at seminary I don’t know. Practicing receiving it and giving it actually improves our communication skills.

I look at it this way, I don’t want to be standing on Judgment Day and Jesus asks me why I didn’t you step up and speak to Bob when I knew he was cheating on his wife. ““um…ah…it was because I didn’t want to get a fat lip””.

I deny knowing Jesus and participate in/implicitly approve of the sin by looking the other way and/or keeping silent.

When people sin, their sins affect everyone, themselves, their family, friends, parish, those who know and the entire Church body.

 

[SAVINGRACE]

Do you really believe that in the past it was okay to say to someone, “you’re going to Hell.”

It wasn’t okay before, it isn’t okay now.

Fraternal correction doesn’t mean walking around telling people that they are condemned to Hell.

There is nothing in that persons post that indicates he approves of people telling others they are condemned to Hell.

As I put in my post, there is a way of correcting people from a place of love. It’s a skill that good communicators possess.

Unfortunately, some parishioners do preach hell and damnation, using accusatory tones, raising voices and getting confrontational. That will get anybody a fat lip.

Instead we should correct from a place of love the way parents correct their children by sitting down and discussing their bad behaviour in a civilised manner.

 

[Horton]

Do you really believe that in the past it was okay to say to someone, “you’re going to Hell.”

It wasn’t okay before, it isn’t okay now.

Fraternal correction doesn’t mean walking around telling people that they are condemned to Hell.

I didn’t read any posts where someone advised telling another they are going to hell.