Is it okay for a catholic businessman to discriminate against gays?

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What principle? One is a matter of race, the other an issue of behavior.

Unjust discrimination - what is just discrimination?

here:
In fact, it comes from Pope Benedict himself, when, as Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, he headed the Vatican’s Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.
“‘Sexual orientation’ does not constitute a quality comparable to race, ethnic background, etc. in respect to non-discrimination. Unlike these, homosexual orientation is an objective disorder and evokes moral concern,” wrote Cardinal Ratzinger in a crucial document in 1992.
Legally enshrining “sexual orientation” in this way, he continued, “can easily lead to regarding homosexuality as a positive source of human rights,” and “can easily lead, if not automatically, to the legislative protection and promotion of homosexuality.”
You’re making my point: the question is one of behavior only. It’s objectively immoral for a businessman to refuse to hire a secretary who is engaged in homosexual activity at home, because that has nothing to do with the carrying on of the business. As the letter you cite pointed out,
Homosexual persons, as human persons, have the same rights as all persons including the right of not being treated in a manner which offends their personal dignity (cf. no. 10). Among other rights, all persons have the right to work, to housing, etc. Nevertheless, these rights are not absolute. They can be legitimately limited for objectively disordered external conduct.
Some Considerations Concerning the Response to Legislative Proposals on the Non-Discrimination of Homosexual Persons ¶ 12.

You’ve repeatedly cited “businessmen” in your posts, not school principals dealing with “out” gays or what have you. So it appears that you’re arguing generally that everyone gets to discriminate against gays, just for being gay. And that’s just not consistent with the Church’s teaching.

If a Sunday School teacher is in an open relationship (gay or straight), disciplinary action is called for. If the receptionist can’t answer the phone because he’s too busy photocopying Gay Pride materials, fire away. The question is whether the job is getting done. If it is, then the employee is doing fine. If it isn’t, then that needs to be fixed. But it has nothing to do with who the employee sleeps with.
 
Some Considerations Concerning the Response to Legislative Proposals on the Non-Discrimination of Homosexual Persons

II. Applications

**10. **“Sexual orientation” does not constitute a quality comparable to race, ethnic background, etc. in respect to non-discrimination. Unlike these, homosexual orientation is an objective disorder (cf. “Letter,” No. 3) and evokes moral concern.

11. There are areas in which it is not unjust discrimination to take sexual orientation into account, for example, in the placement of children for adoption or foster care, in employment of teachers or athletic coaches, and in military recruitment.
I can’t find the part that says “And go ahead and refuse to hire all gays in any business, just because you want a certain ‘culture’ in your office.” Can you point to that, please?
 
Can’t buy it. A businessman has a right to determine the culture of his business.
So when would this end?

What if he wants a politically “conservative” culture at his business. Is he/she free to not hire a qualified candidate who shows themselves a democrat on their facebook page?

What if an employer wants to hire only Caucasians as he feels that the group cohesion would be disrupted by hiring a minority.

What if an employer would prefer not to have to put in a wheelchair ramp but a qualified individual confined to one has applied? COuld they choose to not hire that applicant due to this?
 
Sure – but determining “suitability for hire” begs the question. If “suitability for hire” means “A person who can do the job, and I don’t care which sins s/he performs on his/her own time,” fine. But if “suitability for hire” means “I don’t like [blacks / whites / gays / straights / men / women / Catholics / Muslims / etc.,” then it’s wrong.

If you assume that of every gay person, then you have a long and paranoia-filled employment life ahead of you. You also are probably going to find yourself being asked “But you hired unmarried cohabiting heterosexuals; aren’t they going to try to get partner benefits?”

The whole thing is a lot simpler, really: don’t worry about what your employees are doing to other people on their own time, and carry on your own business. If they’re doing their jobs, keep them employed.
Once again, we need to make a few distinctions here. In your first paragraph, for example: “I don’t like [blacks / whites / gays / straights / men / women / Catholics / Muslims / etc.,” then it’s wrong.
That is incorrect logic. Being black or white does not constitute sin, nor does it go against God’s Commandments. Being male or female does not constitute sin, nor does it go against God’s Commandments. Being gay or straight *may indeed
[/quote]

go against God’s Commandments *if, in fact, (and I cannot stress this enough) *one is openly gay. We have to determine how it is that the business owner *knows for certain *that the person seeking employment is, in fact, gay.
That being said, there are some instances where gender does play a role. For example, the Catholic priesthood is only available to men. Sisters and nuns must be female; brothers and monks must be male. Most people wouldn’t argue that. Age discrimination is perfectly acceptable (there are very few positions open to minors, and age limits on some other jobs. Those restrictions are generally set in place both for the good of the individual and the company.)

Your second paragraph assumes that the business owner is refusing employment to a homosexual while at the same time hiring unmarried cohabiting heterosexuals. That was never stated, nor was it implied. At my place of business, neither would be suitable for the job.

Your third paragraph really says more than you intended. You said, “…
don’t worry about what your employees are doing to other people on their own time…” and you were quite correct in using the word “to.” I think you meant to say “with other people” but “***to ***other people” is more accurate!

I think it is also important to make a distinction between tolerance and permissiveness. As Catholics, we are all called to holiness. We are all called to repentance. We are all sinners, yet we are not called to condone sin. Jesus did not say, “That’s okay - we all sin, so you just keep on sinning. I know you can’t help yourself… you were born with a tendency toward (fill in the blank).” He did say, “Go, and avoid this sin.” He condemned the Pharisees for their hipocrisy, while forgiving (not tolerating or condoning, forgiving) thieves, tax collectors, and adulterers. However, he did not tell them to keep stealing, extorting, or cheating. When there are no consequences for sinful behavior, where is the motivation for conversion? I can accept the fact that some people are born with homosexual tendencies, but I am not going to condone it, celebrate it, or pretend I don’t see it. Nor am I going to allow homosexuals as a group to rise up and insist on the right to flagrant displays of homosexuality. Not all homosexuals do this, but it seems apparent that homosexuals are becomming more and more outspoken.

As you said, “The whole thing is a lot simpler, really.” However, I disagree with you in the way in which this is true. The whole thing is a lot simpler when homosexuals do not openly commit homosexual acts. If a person does not want to be discriminated against because of their homosexuality, all they need to do is make sure that their homosexuality is not so obvious that someone would 1. know about it, and 2. discriminate.
 
And, if you’re refusing to hire all people who sin, rather than just gay people who sin, I believe you.
We all sin but that doesn’t mean we don’t follow morals.
You do know what morals are don’t you?

And homosexuality is immoral
 
Yes, it is ok. Having been there I can tell you that for a lot of jobs you want to pick the right person for the job, and customer perception is an important part of that. If you pick some gay guy who talks and acts funny and runs off the customers, it is not ok. It is destroying your business. For some jobs they may be preferred.

Would it be ok for the manager of a strip club to refuse to hire fat old men to be dancers? Of course it would be.
 
Why is it that so many people think when someone starts a business they lose all their rights and now have to do what everyone else says?
 
Why is it that so many people think when someone starts a business they lose all their rights and now have to do what everyone else says?
Unfortunately, that is becoming the case. One of the reasons I am against any anti-discrimination laws being forced on private businesses is because the owner is no longer free to hire or serve only the people he wants to. If it’s his business on his property, I think he should be allowed to refuse service or employment to anyone for whatever reason he wants.

But if the original question was directed towards whether it is moral to do that, I don’t think the current laws matter much because it would be wrong to discriminate whether legal to or not.
 
For example, if I run a business, would the church be okay with me not hiring gay people, even if they are more highly qualified than other employees? What about banning gays from patronizing a business?
Ben,

This would be a problem in Canada for sure. Why not hire everyone? When asked about endorsing a political party, Michael Jordan said…I think “Republicans buy shoes too”…business is business…money is money…why ask?
 
Yes, it is ok. Having been there I can tell you that for a lot of jobs you want to pick the right person for the job, and customer perception is an important part of that. If you pick some gay guy who talks and acts funny and runs off the customers, it is not ok. It is destroying your business. For some jobs they may be preferred.
If a particular homosexual behaves in a way which violates business decorum, then such a person should not be hired, period. (Or should be let go if that occurs only after hiring.) Ditto for a heterosexual – say a woman who flaunts her sexuality at work by suggestive behavior, words, dress – flirting with male customers or employees. Those both have to do with the standards of a business culture, set by an employer. Those standards tend to operate in corporate atmospheres, such as formal business settings consisting of making sales presentations, meeting customers in a professional service capacity, such as also financial firms, some accounting firms, etc.

By contrast, there are other firms (usually smaller ones) in which either the entire company or a department has a very different culture than “business formal.” For example, when I used to work in advertising, I worked in the business end. For us, it was suits (men and women) almost always, & professional demeanor. But in our Creative Department, the guys and gals mostly dressed casually (jeans even, rarely suits or even jackets), and there were some open homosexuals in that department. For both orientations in that department, behavioral standards were rather different than for the rest of us. (That included language.) The Creative Director hired his staff, and even though he was a heterosexual (and then some! :eek:) he set the expectations for that department, and the whole advertising agency understood that and was fine with that. The creative staff – artists & copywriters – normally did not attend presentations (Pitches) to clients, so their intra-office behavior was not an issue for the agency.
Would it be ok for the manager of a strip club to refuse to hire fat old men to be dancers? Of course it would be.
That relates to a physical requirement, not a behavioral one. A “fat old man” does not qualify to be a female stripper in a (straight) strip club.
 
If a particular homosexual behaves in a way which violates business decorum, then such a person should not be hired, period. (Or should be let go if that occurs only after hiring.) Ditto for a heterosexual – say a woman who flaunts her sexuality at work by suggestive behavior, words, dress – flirting with male customers or employees. Those both have to do with the standards of a business culture, set by an employer. Those standards tend to operate in corporate atmospheres, such as formal business settings consisting of making sales presentations, meeting customers in a professional service capacity, such as also financial firms, some accounting firms, etc.

By contrast, there are other firms (usually smaller ones) in which either the entire company or a department has a very different culture than “business formal.” For example, when I used to work in advertising, I worked in the business end. For us, it was suits (men and women) almost always, & professional demeanor. But in our Creative Department, the guys and gals mostly dressed casually (jeans even, rarely suits or even jackets), and there were some open homosexuals in that department. For both orientations in that department, behavioral standards were rather different than for the rest of us. (That included language.) The Creative Director hired his staff, and even though he was a heterosexual (and then some! :eek:) he set the expectations for that department, and the whole advertising agency understood that and was fine with that. The creative staff – artists & copywriters – normally did not attend presentations (Pitches) to clients, so their intra-office behavior was not an issue for the agency.

That relates to a physical requirement, not a behavioral one. A “fat old man” does not qualify to be a female stripper in a (straight) strip club.
Liz,

Disney Discriminated. They had costumes Small, Medium and Large. If you did not fit the costume you did not work.
 
If a particular homosexual behaves in a way which violates business decorum, then such a person should not be hired, period. (Or should be let go if that occurs only after hiring.) Ditto for a heterosexual – say a woman who flaunts her sexuality at work by suggestive behavior, words, dress – flirting with male customers or employees. Those both have to do with the standards of a business culture, set by an employer. Those standards tend to operate in corporate atmospheres, such as formal business settings consisting of making sales presentations, meeting customers in a professional service capacity, such as also financial firms, some accounting firms, etc.

By contrast, there are other firms (usually smaller ones) in which either the entire company or a department has a very different culture than “business formal.” For example, when I used to work in advertising, I worked in the business end. For us, it was suits (men and women) almost always, & professional demeanor. But in our Creative Department, the guys and gals mostly dressed casually (jeans even, rarely suits or even jackets), and there were some open homosexuals in that department. For both orientations in that department, behavioral standards were rather different than for the rest of us. (That included language.) The Creative Director hired his staff, and even though he was a heterosexual (and then some! :eek:) he set the expectations for that department, and the whole advertising agency understood that and was fine with that. The creative staff – artists & copywriters – normally did not attend presentations (Pitches) to clients, so their intra-office behavior was not an issue for the agency.

That relates to a physical requirement, not a behavioral one. A “fat old man” does not qualify to be a female stripper in a (straight) strip club.
You make some very good points and I agree with you. I think the underlying problem is that some think that discrimination is always wrong. In fact discrimination happens constantly and is the only way for a business to have standards.

Hospitals discriminate against people who don’t meet the medical eucation requirements. Corporate recruiters will discriminate against people who look or act unprofessional. I fully expect an NFL team to discriminate against out of shape people when selecting their final roster.

Businesses cannot have standards at all without discriminating against those who fail to meet them. The government has basically said with their anti-discrimination laws that they, the government, get to choose the standards that private entities are allowed to have.
 
You make some very good points and I agree with you. I think the underlying problem is that some think that discrimination is always wrong. In fact discrimination happens constantly and is the only way for a business to have standards.
I understand that. 🙂 But let’s limit it to unjust or arbitrary discrimination. In that way, I can correct what you say below.
Hospitals discriminate against people who don’t meet the medical eucation requirements.
That’s rejecting the unqualified. Different subject than discrimination by personal category (age, race, gender, sexual orientation).
Corporate recruiters will discriminate against people who look or act unprofessional.
Looking and acting professional are requirements (one of the many qualifications) for a corporate job.
I fully expect an NFL team to discriminate against out of shape people when selecting their final roster.
When out of shape, you fail to qualify for a professional sports team.
Businesses cannot have standards at all without discriminating against those who fail to meet them. The government has basically said with their anti-discrimination laws that they, the government, get to choose the standards that private entities are allowed to have.
I respectfully disagree. They can indeed set standards. What they cannot do is to say categorically that homosexuals could not meet those standards, or that members of a certain race couldn’t. Or that older people energetic & sharp enough to do the job competently couldn’t. (And plenty of open homosexuals work in businesses, and in high levels of them. Others work in businesses but remain closeted out of choice. Just as I have worked in businesses and chosen not to disclose non-sexual things about myself, for reasons of prudence.)

The business could, however, select only young people if no older people interviewing for the job projected a youthful, vibrant culture, and the success of the business depended on such a high energy level. A business located in a particular conservative region could also not hire a particular homosexual man with exaggerated, stereotyped affectations if such a personal style in a high-interface position would be an affront to customers. Because these are examples of “requirements of the job.” A business could also decide not to hire someone whose foreign accent was so heavy that it impaired customer service. In that case, they would not be refusing to hire based on nationality, but based on lack of intelligibility (a “requirement of the job”).

Generally now, employers cover their behinds when rejecting applicants. The internet allows them to do a lot of that without explanation. (Simply ignore an applicant, or even ignore someone who has been interviewed, which is even ruder.) Those who do reply with an explanation usually offer the generic phrase, “you were not as ideal as some of our other candidates.” (Talk about a euphemism!) However, they tend to keep notes about each person interviewed, in case of charges of “discrimination.” They can then point to the legitimate reasons above, rather than the “reason” of race, orientation, etc.

(Misgivings are usually not verbalized; an employer won’t say, “You’re too old,” or “you’re too swishy.” :eek: He or she will make a note that the applicant’s mannerisms were exaggerated and distracting, which is a poor fit with this reserved company culture, or that the applicant was unable to match the interviewer’s brisk pace & could not be counted on to perform in a fast-paced environment.)

None of that is unjust or illegitimate discrimination. It’s realistic matching. It does not mean, however, that there does not continue to be arbitrary discrimination in the workforce, based on prejudice, stereotype, and just plain ignorance. One sees this especially in some internet job ads in which the language of the ad is making assumptions about which “type” of people would be the best fit. Sometimes they do even phrase it as “ideal,” but it’s clear that their judgment of what is “ideal” for the job they describe is not at all accurate. Those assumptions are often held by very inexperienced people who have not lived long enough to see energetic older people outpace younger lazy people, some homosexuals behaving a lot more conservatively than some heterosexuals, etc.
 
Corki, I stand corrected, only 29 of the 50 states have anti-discrimination laws designed to protect sexual orientation, still over half. Also, I agree with you, obviously, that the Catechism is an essential tool to acting out our faith. And I also agree with your “just discrimination” caveat as well, however as I will elaborate on, I do not feel the OP presented a “just discrimination” scenerio.

In fact, I have to say, I’m pretty shocked that there are people on this thread that are advocating discriminating against a homosexual in such a way as was suggested by the OP. What he/she postulated is absolutely 100% against what the Catholic Church teaches, and I find it disheartening that anyone would not follow the guidance of Holy Mother Church on this topic. I reiterate and stand by what I said originally, preach Truth in Charity. Discrimination, no matter what mental gymnastics one uses to justify it, is NOT what the Church teaches. One can play the semantics all day, but in the end the Truth is the Truth, and the Church, and Pope Benedict XVI have spoken extensively about this issue. “Just discrimination” does NOT cover the hypothetical situation presented by the OP.

The behavior of said homosexual individual that may enable a “just discrimination” against that person, is an entirely different topic to the one we are presented with in this thread. I think to read “homosexual” and just assume that their behavior while at work would be detrimental to the work environment or the conducting of business is wildly inappropriate and smacks of irrational prejudice. On the other hand, if one is not making that jump and is just saying do not hire a homosexual at all, that is just blatant prejudice, point blank. Yes we must not be timid in standing up and speaking out for Truth, in driving out evil where it lurks and infiltrates our lives, but again, UNjustly discriminating against homosexuals neither speaks for Truth nor effectively drives out evil; it only drives it further into the dark recesses and corners were it grows stronger, and even farther from the Truth. Some of the posts on this thread are quite clearly advocating unjust discrimination and I pray that those of you who do so will reconsider your positions and adopt a philosophy more in line with what Holy Mother Church and the Holy Father instruct and expect of us as Catholics.

In the end, it is about saving souls, and on the eve of the Year of Faith and the New Evangelization, let us dedicate ourselves to that. Those who do have SSA and struggle with homosexuality can be saved by charitable evangelization and the living out of the authentic Gospel which has no room for bigotry and shunning of the person. Jesus did not drive Mary Magdalene from His midst because she was a sinner, but he accepted her and changed her life, saved her soul.

Should we not try to soften the hearts of those who struggle with homosexuality to help them accept the authentic love of Jesus Christ in the Catholic Church, rather than pick up the stones of the mob to hurl at every sinner amongst us? I think we do well to preach the Truth in charity, evangelize these people, and not drive them farther away from the Truth they have a difficult time understanding to begin with.

Just some food for thought. God bless.

-Paul
 
Yes, it is ok. Having been there I can tell you that for a lot of jobs you want to pick the right person for the job, and customer perception is an important part of that. If you pick some gay guy who talks and acts funny and runs off the customers, it is not ok. It is destroying your business. For some jobs they may be preferred.

Would it be ok for the manager of a strip club to refuse to hire fat old men to be dancers? Of course it would be.
Wow, you just sound a little biased. Are you saying all gay people act and talk funny? While I agree with maybe not hiring gays, i wouldn’t hire them because of their act, not because they talk or act “funny” I know plenty of straight people who were thought to be gay because of hw they acted. Seriously thats just wrong. If thats what your’e getting at. If not then I am sorry
 
Liz,

Disney Discriminated. They had costumes Small, Medium and Large. If you did not fit the costume you did not work.
They don’t now. Costumes come in varied sizes, just like people. There was an issue not long ago about a Muslim woman who wanted to wear her hajib but Disney said no because it was not part of her costume. She could have a job, but not be “on-stage” where guests could see. I have to admit I’m not sure where that one ended up.

Other than that, Disney bends over backwards to not discriminate in any way.
 
Wow, you just sound a little biased. Are you saying all gay people act and talk funny? While I agree with maybe not hiring gays, i wouldn’t hire them because of their act, not because they talk or act “funny” I know plenty of straight people who were thought to be gay because of hw they acted. Seriously thats just wrong. If thats what your’e getting at. If not then I am sorry
She said a homosexual WHO does that, not any homosexual.

And it totally makes a difference: I was extremely disturbed when a very effeminate manager at a store went *on and on *about how cute my toddler son was to another effeminate employee.

And I did not return to that store for several years.
 
We all sin but that doesn’t mean we don’t follow morals.
You do know what morals are don’t you?

And homosexuality is immoral
No, homosexaul acts are immoral, and not all homosexuals have gay sex.

SSA is not immoral, but disordered.
 
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