Is it okay for Latin Catholics to use the Byzantine Sign of the Cross?

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Maxime_Indigent

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I’m a Roman Catholic following the Latin rite – is it okay to cross myself the way Byzantines do (last two fingers tucked in, right to left)?

I think this gesture beautifully captures the central beliefs of our faith, such as the Holy Trinity and the two natures of Christ.

Also, why did we change the way we did the Sign of the Cross, going from left to right instead?

Thanks in advance. 🙂
 
You can do it the Byzantine way if you want; it is still Catholic. You could even hold your hand the Byzantine way but continue sign from left to right if it is just the hand posture that you particularly like. 🙂

You might find this interesting:
"The sign of the cross is made with three fingers, because the signing is done together with the invocation of the Trinity. … This is how it is done: from above to below, and from the right to the left, because Christ descended from the heavens to the earth, and from the Jews (right) He passed to the Gentiles (left).

“Others, however, make the sign of the cross from the left to the right, because from misery (left) we must cross over to glory (right), just as Christ crossed over from death to life, and from Hades to Paradise. [Some priests] do it this way so that they and the people will be signing themselves in the same way. You can easily verify this — picture the priest facing the people for the blessing — when we make the sign of the cross over the people, it is from left to right…”
  • Pope Innocent III (1198-1216)
 
I have always held my hand in the Byzantine gesture, possibly before I knew it was Byzantine. I would personally feel a little “weird” going right-to-left while I was in a Roman Rite liturgy or parish. Of course when visiting the Byzantines I always attempt to do so. “When in Constantinople”, as they say.
 
We have a good number of Latin parishioners and regular visitors. Many make the sign the Byzantine way. When I am attending Mass, I continue to make the sign the Byzantine way, but I haven’t always done that. When I was a child, a Byzantine growing up in a Latin school, the nuns were quite insistent that I make the sign of the cross “correctly”. 🙂 I was a compliant child and I adopted a policy of “when in Rome…” My Latin Rite husband crossed over to the Byzantine way of making the sign of the cross after about 3 years in a Byzantine parish. That’s when I knew he was finally comfortable.
 
Zekariya said:
"The sign of the cross is made with three fingers, because the signing is done together with the invocation of the Trinity. … This is how it is done: from above to below, and from the right to the left, because Christ descended from the heavens to the earth, and from the Jews (right) He passed to the Gentiles (left).

“Others, however, make the sign of the cross from the left to the right, because from misery (left) we must cross over to glory (right), just as Christ crossed over from death to life, and from Hades to Paradise. [Some priests] do it this way so that they and the people will be signing themselves in the same way. You can easily verify this — picture the priest facing the people for the blessing — when we make the sign of the cross over the people, it is from left to right…”
  • Pope Innocent III (1198-1216)
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This is something I always wanted to know, but kept forgetting to ask. Outstanding!
 
spiderweb said:
This is something I always wanted to know, but kept forgetting to ask. Outstanding!
Click to expand...
My guess is that the right to left is a Byzantine Empire thing and Rome used to be part of the Byzantine Empire. The non-Byzantine Eastern parishes cross left to right like the West currently does. 🙂
 
Maxime_Indigent said:
Also, why did we change the way we did the Sign of the Cross, going from left to right instead?
Click to expand...
The Byzantine way of signing oneself has some interesting connotations to a Latin speaker.

Right and Left carried concepts of morality. The Latin terms are Dexter (right) and Sinister (left). In theatre, vilians generally entered and exited on Stage Left. A hero exiting stage left indicated that he fell or commited a wrong.

Right was associated with good. The term ‘dexterous’ really is a reference to being right-handed. And our English word ‘sinister’ and even the name ‘sin’ both come from references to leftness.

Moving from right to left ( Dexter to Sinister) denoted a movement to evil, while doing in the reverse Sinister to Dexter showed a progression from sin to holiness.

So the cultural connotation drove the change in the sign of the Cross.
 
Brendan said:
The Byzantine way of signing oneself has some interesting connotations to a Latin speaker.

Right and Left carried concepts of morality. The Latin terms are Dexter (right) and Sinister (left). In theatre, vilians generally entered and exited on Stage Left. A hero exiting stage left indicated that he fell or commited a wrong.

Right was associated with good. The term ‘dexterous’ really is a reference to being right-handed. And our English word ‘sinister’ and even the name ‘sin’ both come from references to leftness.

Moving from right to left ( Dexter to Sinister) denoted a movement to evil, while doing in the reverse Sinister to Dexter showed a progression from sin to holiness.

So the cultural connotation drove the change in the sign of the Cross.
Click to expand...
Perhaps, or it may have changed for other reasons, and the theological significance of a move from sin to holiness was later added.
 
Zekariya said:
My guess is that the right to left is a Byzantine Empire thing and Rome used to be part of the Byzantine Empire. The non-Byzantine Eastern parishes cross left to right like the West currently does. 🙂
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There was mentioned that Romans have switched. I don’t think so. Orientals, who are from Western Catholic point of view older than Byzantines, cross themselves from left to right. So probably this is older. Byzantine priests and bishops cross themselves as persons right-to-left but when blessing others left-to-right. I have noticed theory that congregants changed in a way to cross themselves as they are blessed and that’s why Byzantines cross themselves right-to-left.

Of course Oriental habits can have no or minor connection with this. I don’t know if they are relevant for this discussion but I consider it at least interesting to mention.
 
Nestor_kea said:
There was mentioned that Romans have switched. I don’t think so. Orientals, who are from Western Catholic point of view older than Byzantines, cross themselves from left to right. So probably this is older. Byzantine priests and bishops cross themselves as persons right-to-left but when blessing others left-to-right. I have noticed theory that congregants changed in a way to cross themselves as they are blessed and that’s why Byzantines cross themselves right-to-left.

Of course Oriental habits can have no or minor connection with this. I don’t know if they are relevant for this discussion but I consider it at least interesting to mention.
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It is widely believed by scholars that crossing from right-to-left is the older form, and that it was the form originally used in the West.
 
RyanBlack said:
It is widely believed by scholars that crossing from right-to-left is the older form, and that it was the form originally used in the West.
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Considering that the Orientals invariably use left-to-right, I’m not so sure about that.
 
malphono said:
Considering that the Orientals invariably use left-to-right, I’m not so sure about that.
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All throughout my theological training (and I took courses with some of the most highly respected liturgical scholars in the United States), I never heard anything other than that crossing from right-to-left is the older form, including in the West. Having said that, I studied at a school where the Oriental tradition was not given a great deal of attention; furthermore, I don’t think it can be known that the right-to-left form was ever universal.
 
Nestor_kea said:
There was mentioned that Romans have switched. I don’t think so. Orientals, who are from Western Catholic point of view older than Byzantines, cross themselves from left to right. So probably this is older. Byzantine priests and bishops cross themselves as persons right-to-left but when blessing others left-to-right. I have noticed theory that congregants changed in a way to cross themselves as they are blessed and that’s why Byzantines cross themselves right-to-left.

Of course Oriental habits can have no or minor connection with this. I don’t know if they are relevant for this discussion but I consider it at least interesting to mention.
Click to expand...
Pope Innocent III tells us that the Latins originally did the sign from right to left and later switched it. My post had nothing to do with what is oldest. It merely showed that the Latins used to do it the Byzantine way and later switched.
 
Zekariya said:
Pope Innocent III tells us that the Latins originally did the sign from right to left and later switched it. My post had nothing to do with what is oldest. It merely showed that the Latins used to do it the Byzantine way and later switched.
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Hm… so if right-to-left is the original form in the West as well as in the East, it would imply that Byzantine “blessers” changed when consecrating their flocks and not that people changed according to priests.
 
Nestor_kea said:
Hm… so if right-to-left is the original form in the West as well as in the East, it would imply that Byzantine “blessers” changed when consecrating their flocks and not that people changed according to priests.
Click to expand...
Byzantine priest bless from left to right because they aim for the layman’s right shoulder and then their left. It is not changed to mirror; it is because the right shoulder is always blessed first.
 
I didn’t know that Zekariya, interesting.

Anyhow, related to the topic although I think all Apostolic ways of signing are of equal value I kind of find it strange a Latin would sign themselves like a Greek. These things start to dip into the realm of ritual-platter Catholics, diverting for the sake of novelty - even if that isn’t the case there’s a way Latins sign themselves and to do otherwise is contrary to the disciplinary tradition of the Church.

I obviously speak with no authority on the matter, but there is something to following the prescriptions of one’s sui iuris Church.
 
Also consider that the truly oldest form is crossing one’s forehead with the thumb, which is still practiced at times in the west (e.g. at the gospel salutation). If we consider that, the west has preserved the oldest form of all 😃
 
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