Is it okay that the Catholic church do things that are unbiblical? How to defend it?

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It clearly says I do NOT accept Church authority because of the bible.
That’s exactly why I would like to hear from him why he thinks Christ established the Roman Catholic Church. Because I don’t know any extra-biblical source that confirms this. But perhaps I’m overlooking something, so I’ll patiently wait for his answer.
 
So if I believe global warming is true because of climate.nasa.gov/evidence/
…then I am engaging in circular reasoning because I believe the report because it’s in the report and the report says it so that’s why I believe it. :rolleyes:

I shall wait patiently for evidence of global warming that doesn’t come from people who have seen evidence.

That’s what you’re asking isn’t it?

You want ‘extra-biblical’ evidence but you miss the point that it wasn’t called “the bible” at the time the events in the bible took place. You’re artificially drawing a circle around the evidence and demanding evidence from other sources. Texas sharpshooter in reverse.
 
So if I believe global warming is true because of climate.nasa.gov/evidence/
…then I am engaging in circular reasoning because I believe the report because it’s in the report and the report says it so that’s why I believe it. :rolleyes:

I shall wait patiently for evidence of global warming that doesn’t come from people who have seen evidence.

That’s what you’re asking isn’t it?

You want ‘extra-biblical’ evidence but you miss the point that it wasn’t called “the bible” at the time the events in the bible took place. You’re artificially drawing a circle around the evidence and demanding evidence from other sources. Texas sharpshooter in reverse.
You shouldn’t believe the report because it’s in the report that you should believe it. That would be circular reasoning. The data that the report communicates is evidence. And you can check that data against other data.
 
You shouldn’t believe the report because it’s in the report that you should believe it. That would be circular reasoning. The data that the report communicates is evidence. And you can check that data against other data.
No.
You are effectively saying that NO report from NASA is to be believed. If I believe what’s in the NASA report it’s the evidence in that report to which I am appealing - not the word ‘NASA’

Likewise the word “bible” is not the reasoning being given as to why a certain fact IN the bible is pertinent to the authority of the Church.

You say go and find extra-biblical evidence, but thats like saying four Gospels isn’t enough and neither is eight or sixteen or eighty four…because they are in a book called “the bible” they therefore can’t be relied upon to support a certain proposition
…because that’s ‘circular’ reasoning.
 
You shouldn’t believe the report because it’s in the report that you should believe it. That would be circular reasoning. The data that the report communicates is evidence. And you can check that data against other data.
Glad you said data. We all believe in data: historical, experimental, etc.

Ancient texts showing Jesus speaking words which we are convinced show his establishing the Church to be headed by Peter, then Linus, are data. That of course doesn’t mean it’s proof–any more than warming data prove that current climate changes are primarily man-caused. These are indications, requiring judgment.

So we judge all sorts of evidence and see what it all seems to point to. And of course the fact that some of these texts have been included in the collection we call Scripture shouldn’t dissuade anyone from accepting whatever historical value they have.

Such data (including also the history of early Christians–such as Iranaeus tracing the popes from Peter up to his own day, and indicating as a matter of course that this was how early Christians knew they were following Christ’s church) require judgment, thus the fit of numerous puzzle pieces is recognized as proof by those who can see the picture they make, but dismissed as irrelevant by those who see no picture and find ways to explain away each piece, one by one.
 
No.
You are effectively saying that NO report from NASA is to be believed. If I believe what’s in the NASA report it’s the evidence in that report to which I am appealing - not the word ‘NASA’

Likewise the word “bible” is not the reasoning being given as to why a certain fact IN the bible is pertinent to the authority of the Church.

You say go and find extra-biblical evidence, but thats like saying four Gospels isn’t enough and neither is eight or sixteen or eighty four…because they are in a book called “the bible” they therefore can’t be relied upon to support a certain proposition
…because that’s ‘circular’ reasoning.
Styrgwillidar says he believes the Bible because he accepts the authority of the Roman Catholic Church.

styrgwillidar says he accept the authority of the Roman Catholic Church because that is the Church Christ established.

My question is why styrgwillidar believes that Christ established the Roman Catholic Church.

If he believes that on the basis of the Bible (for example, Matt. 16:19), then that means styrgwillidar believes the Bible before he accepts the authority of the Church that tells him to believe in the Bible.

Or to put it more clearly:

1: The Bible says Christ established the Church.
2: If Christ established the Church, then the Church has authority.
3: The Church says I should believe the Bible
4: Therefore I believe the Bible.

Note that in this case styrgwillidar accepts the truthfulness of the Bible at the very start of his reasoning that should lead him to believe in the Bible! Styrgwillidar begins what he has to prove. A textbook example of circular reasoning.

I want to know from styrgwillidar if this is what he really thinks.

I can’t put it any clearer than this. If you don’t get it by now, then I doubt I can explain it with more posts.
 
Glad you said data. We all believe in data: historical, experimental, etc.

Ancient texts showing Jesus speaking words which we are convinced show his establishing the Church to be headed by Peter, then Linus, are data. That of course doesn’t mean it’s proof–any more than warming data prove that current climate changes are primarily man-caused. These are indications, requiring judgment.

So we judge all sorts of evidence and see what it all seems to point to. And of course the fact that some of these texts have been included in the collection we call Scripture shouldn’t dissuade anyone from accepting whatever historical value they have.

Such data (including also the history of early Christians–such as Iranaeus tracing the popes from Peter up to his own day, and indicating as a matter of course that this was how early Christians knew they were following Christ’s church) require judgment, thus the fit of numerous puzzle pieces is recognized as proof by those who can see the picture they make, but dismissed as irrelevant by those who see no picture and find ways to explain away each piece, one by one.
For the record, I don’t mind if people believe in the truthfulness of the Bible and that leads to the authority of the Church. I also don’t mind if it’s the other way around. But in the first case I want to know why someone accepts the Bible as true and in the second case I’d like to know why someone accepts the authority of the Church. If the answer to the first question can be traced back to the Church and the answer to the second question can be traced back to the Bible, then we have circular reasoning.
 
For the record, I don’t mind if people believe in the truthfulness of the Bible and that leads to the authority of the Church. I also don’t mind if it’s the other way around. But in the first case I want to know why someone accepts the Bible as true and in the second case I’d like to know why someone accepts the authority of the Church. If the answer to the first question can be traced back to the Church and the answer to the second question can be traced back to the Bible, then we have circular reasoning.
This is a common charge, but I think it fails to stick…as Karl Keating & Co. pointed out long ago as follows:

Proving Inspiration
catholic.com/tracts/proving-inspiration

The Catholic method of proving the Bible to be inspired is this: The Bible is initially approached as any other ancient work. It is not, at first, presumed to be inspired. From textual criticism we are able to conclude that we have a text the accuracy of which is more certain than the accuracy of any other ancient work.

Next we take a look at what the Bible, considered merely as a history, tells us, focusing particularly on the New Testament, and more specifically the Gospels. We examine the account contained therein of Jesus’ life, death, and resurrection.

Using what is in the Gospels themselves and what we find in extra-biblical writings from the early centuries, together with what we know of human nature (and what we can otherwise, from natural reason alone, know of divine nature), we conclude that either Jesus was just what he claimed to be—God—or he was crazy. (The one thing we know he could not have been was merely a good man who was not God, since no merely good man would make the claims he made.)

We are able to eliminate the possibility of his being a madman not just from what he said but from what his followers did after his death. Many critics of the Gospel accounts of the resurrection claim that Christ did not truly rise, that his followers took his body from the tomb and then proclaimed him risen from the dead. According to these critics, the resurrection was nothing more than a hoax. Devising a hoax to glorify a friend and mentor is one thing, but you do not find people dying for a hoax, at least not one from which they derive no benefit. Certainly if Christ had not risen, his disciples would not have died horrible deaths affirming the reality and truth of the resurrection. The result of this line of reasoning is that we must conclude that Jesus indeed rose from the dead. Consequently, his claims concerning himself—including his claim to be God—have credibility. He meant what he said and did what he said he would do.

Further, Christ said he would found a Church. Both the Bible (still taken as merely a historical book, not yet as an inspired one) and other ancient works attest to the fact that Christ established a Church with the rudiments of what we see in the Catholic Church today—papacy, hierarchy, priesthood, sacraments, and teaching authority.

We have thus taken the material and purely historically concluded that Jesus founded the Catholic Church. Because of his Resurrection we have reason to take seriously his claims concerning the Church, including its authority to teach in his name.

This Catholic Church tells us the Bible is inspired, and we can take the Church’s word for it precisely because the Church is infallible. Only after having been told by a properly constituted authority—that is, one established by God to assure us of the truth concerning matters of faith—that the Bible is inspired can we reasonably begin to use it as an inspired book.

A Spiral Argument

Note that this is not a circular argument. We are not basing the inspiration of the Bible on the Church’s infallibility and the Church’s infallibility on the word of an inspired Bible. That indeed would be a circular argument! What we have is really a spiral argument. On the first level we argue to the reliability of the Bible insofar as it is history. From that we conclude that an infallible Church was founded. And then we take the word of that infallible Church that the Bible is inspired. This is not a circular argument because the final conclusion (the Bible is inspired) is not simply a restatement of its initial finding (the Bible is historically reliable), and its initial finding (the Bible is historically reliable) is in no way based on the final conclusion (the Bible is inspired). What we have demonstrated is that without the existence of the Church, we could never know whether the Bible is inspired.

The advantages of the Catholic approach are two: First, the inspiration is really proved, not just “felt.” Second, the main fact behind the proof—the reality of an infallible, teaching Church—leads one naturally to an answer to the problem that troubled the Ethiopian eunuch (Acts 8:30-31): How is one to know which interpretations are correct? The same Church that authenticates the Bible, that attests to its inspiration, is the authority established by Christ to interpret his word.
 
Karl Keating & Co. make a different argument. They make a case for the claim that the Bible is inspired; a claim that hasn’t entered this discussion untill now.

More importantly, Keating & Co. accept the truthfulness of the Bible on historical grounds. That is not the argument styrgwillidar made. He believes the Bible on the authority of the Church.
 
For the record, I don’t mind if people believe in the truthfulness of the Bible and that leads to the authority of the Church. I also don’t mind if it’s the other way around. But in the first case I want to know why someone accepts the Bible as true and in the second case I’d like to know why someone accepts the authority of the Church. If the answer to the first question can be traced back to the Church and the answer to the second question can be traced back to the Bible, then we have circular reasoning.
Karl Keating & Co. make a different argument. They make a case for the claim that the Bible is inspired; a claim that hasn’t entered this discussion untill now.

More importantly, Keating & Co. accept the truthfulness of the Bible on historical grounds. That is not the argument styrgwillidar made. He believes the Bible on the authority of the Church.
“In the first case”, as Keating points out, the Bible can approached as any other ancient historical text that can be evaluated for accuracy and reliability. (If you really need to see this material, start a thread.)

Because the arguments for accepting the books of the NT as reliably accurate are compelling, it is reasonable to move on to the “second case”: namely, that Jesus (who showed Himself to be God by His resurrection) intended to establish an authoritative Church which shepherds God’s own people without error in matters of faith and morals. That Church, in turn, teaches that the Bible was inspired by God.

So, styrgwillidar accepts the inspiration of the Bible on the authority of the Church, and he does well as shown in the argument presented because there is no other legitimate basis for doing so.
 
“In the first case”, as Keating points out, the Bible can approached as any other ancient historical text that can be evaluated for accuracy and reliability. And because the arguments for accepting the books of the NT as reliably accurate are compelling, it is reasonable to move on to the next point: namely, that Jesus intended to establish an authoritative Church which shepherds God’s own people without error in matters of faith and morals. That Church, in turn, teaches that the Bible was inspired by God.
I don’t object to approaching the Bible as any other ancient historical text. On the contrary, I thoroughly recommend it.
So, styrgwillidar accepts the inspiration of the Bible on the authority of the Church, and he does well as shown in the argument presented because there is no other legitimate basis for doing so.
This is not about inspiration, this is about truth. Here is what styrgwillidar said:
Weird.

I do not accept the authority of the Catholic Church because of the Bible

I trust that the Bible is actually scripture due to the authority Christ gave to the Church He established.

If I didn’t accept the authority of the Church, I would have no reason to believe the Bible is anything other than a good book on morals and the history of the Jewish people.
 
I don’t object to approaching the Bible as any other ancient historical text. On the contrary, I thoroughly recommend it.
Good. And I started a thread on the Historical Reliability a moment ago.
This is not about inspiration, this is about truth. Here is what styrgwillidar said:
And styrgwillidar is correct. We can be confident that the Bible is the inspired Word of God because an infallible Church assures us that it is.

Keating laid out the steps to arrive at the conclusion that the Catholic Church has that authority.

👍
 
I think global warming is true because I read assertions of fact and evidence made in a NASA report. So when I say…I believe what the NASA report says about global warming because the NASA report says what I (now) believe is true. there’s no circular reasoning involved
tl;dr

Respectfully, I disagree (a word we shall come back to later*).

If the NASA report is your only source of information, then it is circular reasoning to say: I believe what the NASA report says about global warming because the NASA report says what I (now) believe is true. – At the very least, it is confirmation bias to say so (I believe what the report says because it says what I believe),

You could say *I agree with what the NASA report says about global warming because the NASA report says what I (now) believe is true.

(* Told ya’)

I believe (heh) what you mean – Especially if the NASA report is your only source – is: *I believe what the NASA report says about global warming because **I trust the NASA reporters *and/or I find them persuasive.

:twocents:
At least, that is what I believe.

tee
 
How do you know Christ gave authority to the Catholic Church? Surely not from the Bible, otherwise this would be an example of circular reasoning.

“I believe the Bible because I accept the authority of the Catholic Church and I accept the Church’s authority because it has been established by Jesus Christ. It says so in the Bible.”
Hi!
…you’re caught in that “sola Scriptura” syndrome: remove fifteen to twenty hundred years of Church History and you have exactly our “own” personal understanding.

Though, if we read Scriptures free of preconceptions we will find that Christ actually Delegated His Authority to the Church–through the Apostolic Tradition (Oral and Written Word) we find the Founding and Development of the Church.

The Church Calls the continuation of Faith the “Apostolic Teaching” through “Apostolic Succession.”

When a person ignores the totality of Church History, he/she cannot but fall into the self-created gaps between 2016AD and 33AD and the Teaching of Christ, the Founding of the Church, Apostolic Teaching and present-day Church Doctrine & Practice (Apostolic Succession).

,oh, it’s called “linear” time-line (not circular): Christ > Apostles > Church.

Maran atha!

Angel
 
I want to add a nuance: not all things I know have been told to me by others. There are things people discover for themselves.

But you’re right: I believe a lot of things scientists say, even though I’m often unable to check their findings. I’m terrible at maths for one thing. But scientists live in a highly competitive environment where people can get famous by proving other people wrong. I don’t see the same kind of competitiveness among theologians. Even among scientists (in the broad sense of the word) there are scientists I trust less than others. Sociologists for example. I don’t trust them as much as physicists, because that particular field lacks competitiveness. Google Diederik Stapel for example. He was a big guy in the sociology field. And a complete fraud.
Hi!
…so you actually believe that “competitiveness” produces truth?

…competitiveness only produces competitiveness–till it became too expensive, the US government did not challenge the tobacco industry; people were dying from all sorts of tobacco related illnesses and for over forty years the industry’s competitiveness allowed it to buy off officials and test-results… eventually the truth came out because of the cost of the medical and maintenance expense of the tobacco users-victims’ survival curve (meds and tech allowed victims to survive into their seventies and eighties draining resources from medicare and social security). In the past as they died around the ripe age of thirty/forty something there was very little interest in founding out the truth. The truth was always there–it was obscured by the competing factions in the tobacco industry.

Theological truth cannot be proven by science or by competition.

Take the innocuous snowflake… science has determined that each of them is an individual creation; not only that but they are each composed by intricate geometric forms… hundreds of years prior to scientific discoveries Scriptures were telling us that God Reveals Himself even to the unlearned (no need for rocket scientists) through nature! 🍿🍿🍿

Maran atha!

Angel
 
My views on early Christianity has nothing to do with my atheism. This is more about history than theology. As it happens, I do disagree with the idea that the early Church was well organized. Christianity is, at its core, about the fulfillment of a Jewish messianic prophecy. When Paul was in Greece, he was sued by the Jews of Corinth and brought before the Roman governor Gallio. Gallio dismissed the case saying that it was a dispute about words and names and told the Jews and Paul to sort it out among themselves (Acts 18:15). Early Christianity was highly schismatic and many groups within the Christian movement wrote down their own interpretations. Some of them were, as you probably know, discovered in the 20th century and they’re known as the Dead Sea scrolls.
Hi!
…are you not confusing facts with hopeful facts… in Acts 18:15 St. Paul was not being sued but brought forth so that the Roman Empire would silence him (imprisonment or death). Rome was not interested in religious discord amongst its subjects–unless it directly challenged Roman rule.

The schisms to which you are alluding are the same as today: non-Believers who want to force Believers to revoke their Belief and ego trippers who become determine to place themselves as authority. The fact that the Church continues to remain in spite of all of the myriads of assaults should, to a reasonable mind, be proof of the Succession of the Apostles.

Maran atha!

Angel
 
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